Guido...for the moment, the Pasquale power module is so new that it is not available to anyone. Jeff is the first to use it and has an exclusive on the amp. I was told that a former ICE engineer is the designer. It wouldn't surprise me if Rowland is doing financial backing for this engineer. I noticed you just started a thread on the Continuum Series 2 on What's Best Forum. Look forward to see how that develops. |
Guido..thanks for bringing to my attention in the Merrill Veritas thread the correct spelling of "Pasquale", which is Pascal. As I indicated in the Merrill Veritas thread, the Pascal class-D amps on the Pascal website and the photos on Google images are identical to the amps inside the D-Sonic models. Abletec in New Jersey stated that D-Sonic is using Abletec which may well be in a certain D-Sonic model, but the interior pics of the D-Sonic top models are definitely Pascal judging by the photos. |
That is very interesting Audiozen. Would you mind posting the URL for Pascal? I have not discovered it on my own yet. |
Never mind... I am brain-dead... here is the URL for Pascal Audio.... Easy to find once I googled the right words:
http://www.pascal-audio.com/
If indeed D-Sonic uses both Abletech and Pascal, It would be fascinating to discover what are the audible differences between D-Sonic amps based on Abletech, and D-Sonic amps based on Pascal.
G. |
If you look at the pictures from the 6moons review, it's quite clear that the M2-1500M is using the Pascal board and NOT the Abletec! |
Per the comparison table at
http://www.pascal-audio.com/amplifier-modules.html
the power rating of M2-1500M appears to be outwardly consistent with the Pascal X-PRO3 module. |
So is it confirmed or not that the D Sonics use vanilla Pascal amps? No differences? |
If you look at the pictures and compare the data, you can conclude the D-Sonic is using the Pascal X-PRO1 in their M2-1500M amp. (with their own input board, mainly for impedance matching I assume) |
Mapman, at this point it is still all conjectural. The pics posted on 6moons or other sites may or may not reflect current production. I am not aware of any official statements by D-Sonic about the suppliers and modules used. The D-sonic site is unspecific about the subject:
http://www.d-sonic.net/products/mono/
G. |
Abletec? Pascal? Isn't the OP reflecting about the sound re the great 6moons review? How about the biggest bang for your buck? |
Hi Vladimir, of course you are right, an amplifier can justify its existance only on its audible performance. On the other hand, D-Sonic is utilizing some very innovative technologies to achieve its price/performance goals... And that is a fascinating topic as well. G. |
Reading the documentation at Pascal website, I can only find example applications of inboard amplifiers for pro audio loudspeakers.
Assuming that the D-Sonic amp is using this module, what do you think of using this amp for home (audiophile) audio?
I hope you can share your thoughts. |
Reading the documentation at Pascal website, I can only find example applications of inboard amplifiers for pro audio loudspeakers.
Assuming that the D-Sonic amp is using this module, what do you think of using this amp for home (audiophile) audio?
I hope you can share your thoughts. |
Pro audio would seem like a very practical application for class d amps. Efficiency is usually paramount there.
If it works well and sounds good, then that js the main requirement for home audio. The proof or not would be in the listening. |
Also, there's more to a Class D amp than just the power module. There are input stages, power supplies, yadda, yadda. The proof is in the hearing. That 6 Moons review was pretty impressive and thorough, IMHO. |
As I recently indicated in another thread, Jeff Rowland has
jumped on the Pascal band wagon with two new Class D products that will be released in several weeks. Brandon Kelley at Rowland recently confirmed to me that Pascal is used in the new Continuum S2 Integrated at $9500.00 and the
new 525 class D stereo amp at $4500.00 which can also be ordered as a pair of mono's for $9000.00. With the mods that Jeff has added to the Pascal amps, results in a better
performing product than the ICE amps that Rowland has used in the past. These products can be viewed in the new 2013 Rowland Catalog which can be downloaded from their site. |
I'd be curious to know what "mods" Roland and others do with Pascal amps. With Icepower, the "mods" make all the difference. I would expect newer generation Class D modules to be much better out of the box to start, at least on paper. |
Interesting to note that even with the sound quality of Class D amplifier circuits continuing to improve, Rowland still chooses to design their best reference grade power amps using their very advanced switched mode power supplies with Class A/B output stages. |
"Interesting to note that even with the sound quality of Class D amplifier circuits continuing to improve, Rowland still chooses to design their best reference grade power amps using their very advanced switched mode power supplies with Class A/B output stages."
Probably a smart move. Not all high end audio guys are willing to accept or care for Class D amps. Class A/B amps of course can also sound good and physically more imposing as well. They also will probably have to cost a lot as well to match Class D performance being lower efficiency. Does that mean they are better? I suppose it depends. Dunno. |
Mcbuddah...Any news about the m2 600 monos?
I use an Audio Research vt 100 mk2 amp which I like a lot,
but wouldn´t mind more power.
I read about tube guys who went class-D with satisfaction.
Thanks for any input. |
Mcbuddah
How are you going with your D-sonic? still happy, any impressions?
All the best
Miki |
Just wanted to share my impressions with all of you.
I finally jumped on the bandwagon and got a pair of D-Sonic M2-1500M monoblocks.
The thing is, I put together this new system just for stereo, so I cannot compare the changes that the amps would have made to any previous chain. The system currently consists of: Oppo BDP-105 + Marc Audio XLR Premium interconnects + Two D-Sonic M2-1500M + GLS Audio speaker cable (12AWG) banana finish + Dynaudio Contour S5.4 speakers.
I am very pleased with the sound of the system, although the room might be tricky because it is roughly 7x5 meters, with a semi-wall in the middle (a 2.5 wall along the 5 meter axis). Very good bass response, no need for subwoofer, very detailed, good transients. I think it is not as forgiving with bad recorded music. Just about 30 hours of use, though.
Feel free to submit your comments and/or questions.
Cheers,
Carlos |
Thank you, Carlos. I am still about a year away from pulling the trigger on a new amp, but with D-Sonic's restocking fees, I am looking for any impressions by owners I can find. Please keep us posted as the amps break in. When you say they are not too forgiving of bad source material, does that mean you find them very detailed, which would be a positive, or do you mean they are on the bright side of neutral, which would combine with bright, edgy recordings to produce unpleasant results? |
Bondmanp, so far I would say that the system is detailed, but not overly so. I don't feel it sounds bright. I think it only exposes bad recordings that are artificially loud with poor dynamic range. But then again, the complete system is new, so I could not specify each component contribution to the overall sound. |
Anyone have the new M3 D-Sonic or know what the difference is? |
So I asked Dennis about the difference an all he said was the the 3 is "newer technology". And that the 2 was ICE. He noted that the later 2's are also "newer technology". So now the 3's are officially not ICE, but what are they? |
As I already indicated..D-Sonic is using Pascal amplifiers in their newest models as well as Jeff Rowland using Pascal
in his new mono blocks and his new Continuum S2 integrated. So much going on this year with Class D including the anticipated Bel Canto Class D amp without switching transistors which has an original DC power supply. In the works for two years. First of its kind. |
To be more specific, Rowland makes the new M525stereo: a 250W stereo amp bridgeable to 1000W mono operations. The device is based on Pascal power conversion modules with PFC integrated in the power supply... M525 has just started to ship. Continuum S2 is based on different Pascal modules, and is not shipping yet. |
To add to the extant class D lore,
I have written a review of the Merrill Veritas monoblocks for Positive Feedback on issue No. 68:
http://positive-feedback.com/Issue68/merrill_audio.htm
Once the amps were properly broken in with 1,000 hours of active operations, I did not detect any musical bandwidth limitations, nor any stereotypical class D artifacts with Veritas... I could hear only music.
The examination of further examples of new class D amps should confirm or disprove my hypothesis of class D designs having now grown up into general musical adulthood.
G. |
Bravo Guido. Well written. Thanks for sharing. |
Guido..does the Veritas performance justify their ridiculously high price of $12K a pair? Phew!!
For the money, their Cardas knob type speaker binding posts
are hard to work with compared to the WBT five way posts on other class D amps which are better for locking banana's.
The new D-Sonic M3 800s that came out in recent months at 400 watts per channel and only $1375.00 would be a good amp for you to review as well or is its price to low to deserve the attention to review? |
Another Class D amp to consider for review also is the Arion Audio MK 1000 mono amps. |
Hi AudioZen, I stand by all my favorable findings and conclusions in the article.
From a sonic point of view, I "judge the tree by its fruits", not by its roots... as Igor Stravinsky aptly recommended that we music lovers do back in 1946.
Granted, I am fascinated by amp innerds like anyone else, hence my relatively long treatment of Veritas internals. What will be interesting to determine is how different approaches to topology surrounding the NC1200 module in ATSAH, Veritas, Mola-Mola Kaluga, and Audience WavePower influence their sound. It is worth pointing out that Kaluga at least, does not use a stock NC1200 module, but a customized version.
How much of a "family resemblance" can be found in the audible attributes of these amps? I have no idea at this point in time.
Concerning Cardas connectors... Yes in a sense you are correct... Cardas output connectors may be a little fiddlier than other ones to operate. On the other hand, I am totally blind and am only mildly inconvenienced when fastening spade pairs to them. I can only imagine that a moderately operative pair of eyes would make the process close to painless. I recommend that if you want to use bananas, you may want to contact Merrill or Cardas and determine if Cardas2banana adapters can be supplied.
I agree with you... D-Sonic amps would make for fascinating review material. |
Have not rad article yet, but would love a compare of newer D-Sonics versus other more pricey newer Class D technology as well as against the current old guard of Icepower, etc. |
Mapman, for all audible parameters, I comfortably prefer the performance of the simple implementation of Ncore NC1200 in Veritas monoblocks over the old/discontinued Rowland M312 based on a relative complex implementation of ICEpower 1000ASP. In turns, I moderately prefer M312 over Bel Canto REF1000M (Mk.2) monos, which I much prefer over any other ICEpower amps I have heard over the years.
The article touches on my preference of Veritas over old M312.
G. |
Bruno Putzeys during the past year has made the statement that his "Advanced Technology" with his newest Ncore/Hypex designs spins circles around other linear amplifiers on the market. Hmmm...sounds like Hype-X to me. That may have been true six years ago when the only challenge Bruno had to face were the designs from B&O and Tripath. He addressed the issues regarding feedback problems in the upper bands of those designs and the noise floor. During the past two years great advancements have been made as well by very bright engineer's with Pascal and Abletec, as well as the very innovative in house switching designs by DAT and their Cherry Ultra mono amps, Arion Audio, Nuforce and their Reference 18's, the DS450M from Audio Research which has the second largest power supply in the world for a Class D amp, the Marten M-amp from Sweden is #1 for the largest power supply for a Class D amp on the market. 2013 is the most explosive year ever for new Class D amp designs, and I think Bruno's pair of Mola-Mola amps and his Preamp selling for $25K for the complete system is going to be a hard sell given whats on the market this year at a much lower price point which will yield the same performance results. |
Hi Audiozen, there are doubtless a number of worthy class D amps in the new generation.... I am looking forward to you examining a few up close in detail, and then letting us know your opinion on their actual sonic behavior. G. |
Well said Guidocorona. Thank you. |
Yessiree bob!!..gonna git me a pair of dem Veritas amps made from a solid billet of aircraft aluminum thats used by Boeing and Airbus!! Golly gee Ma..can we go to the airport right now?..If your one of those customers who got fooled buying a 22 lb. block of fancy aluminum with five pounds of Hype-X/Ncore innards for $12K a pair, than I have some great swamp land I can sell you in Puerto Rico. Just spent an hour on the phone with Dennis Deacon of D-Sonic, who has tested, listened and evaluated the Ncore amp modules as well as the models from Abletec, B&O, and Pascal. His team built a custom ordered amp for a customer with a Ncore amp module. Dennis states the Ncore amp from Bruno is a great amp but the Pascal is a superior design and a better performer and agreed that Bruno was at the forefront five years ago but not any more with with better innovative Class D designs that have emerged in recent years from other companies. The current M3 series from D-Sonic will give you better Class D performance than Ncore at a fraction of the cost if you don't mind the plain jane cabinet. Use a high quality power cord and your good to go. |
Here he goes again or should I say he does not hear!
"as well as the very innovative in house switching designs by DAT and their Cherry Ultra mono amps, Arion Audio, Nuforce and their Reference 18's, the DS450M from Audio Research which has the second largest power supply in the world for a Class D amp,"
First I would like to point out it is "DAC" and not "DAT" and it is "Ultra Cherry". But hey, you have never ever actual heard them so why should you care.
Well the difference is I HAVE!!
I, unlike you, have heard the Cherry amps, the Arion amps, the NuForce amps, the ARC amps, the Spectron amps, oh wait you forgot those did you not, and many more! What, these are supposed to be NEW designs. Well the Arions are not that new, the Cherry not so much, and the NuForce, ah, not so much too.
I love how your SCREAM of the high price of the Veritas but make no such mention of the high price of the ARC and we all know the coming monos from Jeff Rowland will be pricey.
And REALLY, BINDING POSTS. And of a brand and type that has won high praise for the design and PERFORMANCE. It must have been a kick in the teeth when you fond out that EVEN A BLIND MAN had NO PROBLEM with THEM.
Now back to the fact that I have actual heard those amps.
All of them are very fine designs however the ARC IMO has the worst sound of the bunch. I can hear the "Class D sound". I was very disappointed because I like ARC and thought it was going to be my next amp. Oh wait these are the ones that, I quote you "Audio Research which has the second largest power supply in the world for a Class D amp,". When are you and others stop with the "if it is bigger, has more in it, is complex design, etc, then it HAS TO BE BETTER BS! Sometimes less and simple SOUNDS BETTER, PERIOD!
I must say I was also very disappointed in the NuForce. I found it to be veiled. And also truncated in the highs.
The Arions are not bad for the money but again there is some limits on the sound.
The Cherry almost gets there. In fact I think many people would find something to like.
The Spectron, as a mono block only with the options, beats them all. It really does a fine job. But then we are around $12,000 so it better beat them all.
But it in no way, shape or form beats the Veritas or the Mola-Mola. I have not heard the Atsah yet.
Please keep in mind I have heard all of these against each other at times, in my system at times and in friends systems at times. Some more then once against each other.
I agree with Guido. And you can do better, you just need to spend a lot more or get a big, hot, heavy, eats electric, more expensive, Class A Pass Labs XA200.5 mono blocks.
REALLY WHAT IS YOUR PROBLEM WITH THE VERITAS AND THE NCORE NC1200?
I MEAN OTHER THEN BEING JEALOUS.
BECAUSE IT REALLY SHOWS THAT YOU CAN NOT BE AND ARE NOT OBJECTIVE AT ALL.
|
Chill out Bro..you need to put out the fire under your butt. Jealous? How absurd. I don't buy into anymore the audio snobbery that reviewers continue to perpetuate that you have to spend gobs of money to get the best performance
from an amplifier. That was true ten years ago but not today. Six months ago I had an extended conversation with Brandon at Rowland regarding Jeff using Pascal exclusively in his mono and integrrated amps. Rowland has indeed evaluated and tested different Class D amps including Ncore and chose Pascal. As I said, if you want to spend $12K for a pair of mono amps with a 22 lb. aluminium chassis with five lbs. of electronics in each, I have some swamp land in Puerto Rico I can sell you. Bruno is not the Messiah of Class D as many of his cult followers claims he is, who ignore the advancements of other Class D engineers who are on equal ground with Putzeys and have advanced further ahead as well. |
|
Audiozen
Absurd=you
Snob=you
Know it all who thinks he knows it all=you
Agenda=you
Now substitute "Audiozen" were "you" are above. Wow, it really takes a BIG head to think you are a ZEN to us mere audiophools.
"swamp land in Puerto Rico" Really, again really were do you get your absurdity and no that was not a question.
Oh, and DO NOT CALL ME BRO! |
Uhrn... Audiozen, 'fore some further confusion is genrated... Fact is that Rowland is not using Pascal in any native mono amps at all at all at all. Conversely, Rowland has incorporated Pascal technology in one bridgeable amp the M525 ($4.5K), and in one integrated: the Continuum S2 ($9K). Hope you get one of them... I heard rumors that they sound very nice. |
I was referring to Rowland's current Class D amps only and the info provided by Brandon. Previous Rowland Class D amps using B&O ICE are out of production. Rowland currently only has three Class D models in production. The 525 and the 125 that are stereo Class D amps and the Continuum S2 integrated all using Pascal power modules. |
Apologies Audiozen... You may want to verify your hypothesis at the source... Unless things have changed in the last couple of months, M125 is not based on Pascal technology. There is an ICEpower module inside it. Furthermore, M525 is not purely a stereo amp... It officially supports bridging to monoblock operations.
G. |
How are the good old and seemingly still quite popular Wyred Class D amps faring sound wise these days against the newer breeds?
I heard a newer Audio Research Class D amp at Lyric in NYC recently running a pair of mid sized Nola speakers.
The audition was too brief to draw any final conclusions but the sound was quite promising. Not sure I heard anything that uniquely distinguished it from others, but it seemed a solid performer. The Nola's were perhaps not quite my cup of tea in that I generally tend to prefer simpler designs with fewer drivers, so the overall coherency was not quite top notch IMHO based on the brief audition, but in lieu of more facts I would tend to not attribute that to the amp as much as the speakers. |
Thanks for correcting me Guido...my mistake..I'm aware of the 525 being bridgeable since
last winter and was thinking of it as a mono amp. Also, I was incorrect on the 125, just spoke to Brandon at Rowland and the 125 is using the latest generation of ICE from B&O and not Pascal as in the other two models. |
Audiozen,
You seem to do a lot of research related to CLass D amps. Are you involved in teh industry in some way, or just a motivated consumer? Just wondering. Thanks. |
Mapman..just a motivated consumer. I have always been intriqued by the 90% efficiency of Class D amps compared to 50% efficiency of a/ab amps that send a lot of wasted energy to the heat sinks. In 1958 there was testing done with pulse switching devices with poor results with current stability problems causing the test amps to blow up. When John Ulrick of Spectron owned Infinity speakers back in the late sixties with Arnie Nudell, he installed his first Class D amp into a Infinity sub-woofer in 1968. The rest is history. Regarding Wyred4Sound, EJ informed me back in 2011 that he was working on a new four piece Class D amp that would be part of the new Wyred4Sound Reference Line but unfortunately that project has been cancelled. |
