@firberger Thanks for your weigh-in. Very helpful. I suspect my Salk SS6M's are in the category with the ProAc et al. Need more power.
I'm using tubes for my pre and just upped their caps with both Mundorf and VCAP Odam.
Daedalus is very nice --- hard to audition and, of course, quite huge.
Audio Note is seriously on my list.
I have lots of treatments (including ATS) but want to not use them if I can!
@gsm
Thanks. Adding "Living Voice" to my "Possible Endgame Speaker" list. (I am pulling things from this thread into a word document.)
@jawest and @chinook9-- Thanks! That might be fun. I’ll circle back if possible and DM you. (One does that by clicking on the username here in the thread and choosing "message user")
@charles1dad
Makes sense -- pay more up front to that safety valve.
Regarding lesser known, that’s basically been my path so far: Quicksilver, MHDT, Salks.
I’m with you on sonic performance and value. The reason I’m aware of it is not because I want or intend to gear flip, but my ears and brain/mind are undergoing a lot of education as I delve further into the hobby. I want to factor in the chance that I may learn more with time. Still, my plan for this next set of speakers is to really try a lot before buying and then (at least hope to) hang in for the longer haul.
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As usual - I am late to the party as I am a working stiff during the week and don't read ( get sidetracked) by these forums until Friday or the weekend .
Many great comments about speakers on this thread . Especially with a focus on efficient speakers.
My experience - the Monitor audio Platinum ( PL100ii) were very Dynamic and the tweeter was the best . The room was filled with the sound coming from it. The bass was strong . However with 40 tube watts I just could not get them to sound magical at all sound levels. My 3.5 ProAC's, in a different room with 175 SS AMP sound much more musical over the entire spectrum . I posted a thread on AG for help and the few who had helped me convinced me I would need a lot more power to bring them to life. ( you do have 60) I also learned during the process I would only go to floor standers as the footprint as the same.
I had originally replaced Sonus Faber - loved the Silk Dome and Devore gibbon super9's were my choice. John was super helpful and although I did not pull the trigger as a pair of Daedalus Muse Studio were available as a trade with another Agoner. Being value( $$ oriented) I made the trade . I also purchased a Wellborne DRD300 mono's on a whim to swap in for a change of Pace. I am incredibly happy with the Daedalus and they are a piece of furniture/art , much like SF, Devore and others. I also listed to Coincident and they were highly efficient and also sounded incredible. Please take a look and possibly listen to them .
For me ATC 's, like ProAC and Monitor Audio Speakers need more power to sound their best at all times.
Do not overlook the preamp with efficient speakers . It ( higher quality Pre) has made a huge difference for me and the background noises associated with them . I hope you are using Tubes for your pre.
I listen to Jazz, Jazz fusion. Classic Rock - not metal and current rock/singer songwriters 90% of the time . Opera easily puts me to sleep and a few of my friends have pushed me to a little classical . But it is not my normal rotation. all of the highly efficient speakers mentioned in this thread which I have heard, auditioned or owned in this thread sounded wonderful with the appropriate associated equipment. I mention this because the Audio-Note display at the recent CAF was playing hard - metal - rock in the room and I was so blown away with the sound. we were dancing in our chairs. My pre-conceived notion that efficient speakers don't really do it for me with heavy ROCK were erased. I didn't go out and buy my first Metallica album - but appreciated the sound and the music being played.
I have not listened to Zu Speakers for any length of time .
I couldn't bring myself to buy Tektons, not that they don't sound good but I am one that likes a good visual - when I relax and listen to music. I appreciate the craftmanship in the speakers made. when I was younger it was OK to have a wolf in sheep's clothing . As time has gone by the visual experience now matter more to me than they once did.
YMMV
Good look on the search and enjoy the journey. Listen with your ears first!
My latest foray into ATS acoustic panels have also made a bid difference.
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Don't know how to DM so I will post that I am not too far away and have Tekton speakers you might like to listen too.
I have Tekton Electron (upgraded) driven by a Doge 10 KT88 tube amp (check Thomas & Stereo on Youtube) with Denafrips Pontus DAC. I listen only to TIDAL through a an opticalRendu setup using MConnect.
I'm in Loveland and you're welcome to visit anytime. Just DM if interested.
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@hilde45 ,
Re-sale — I'm really learning how many very good speaker companies there are out there that one would never hear of without a forum. That's a great thing to learn, but if this is not an endgame speaker, how hard or at what cost would re-sale be? A Devore would sell easily; Coherent audio or NSMT? Might take a hit. (Then again, one might not pay as much up front...)
No doubt that recognized established and larger brands have an advantage when reselling into the used audio product marketplace. People will buy what they are familiar with and feel more secure with the purchase as a result. Tradeoff is generally you pay for this acknowledged higher profile/ prestige upfront when purchasing new.
On the other hand if the highest priority is maximizing sound quality and value then the lesser know (But high quality) manufacturers become more viable and competitive. So there is the always present inevitable balancing act. I tend to take my time when shopping and researching buying options and I keep components for quite a long time. Thus ultimate sonic performance and value are more pertinent for me than concern over ease of resale and used market value.
Obviously this is strictly an individual case by case decision and a person has to know themselves and what matters most. But no doubt that there are many very good choices available.
Charles
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Dirty Weekend. Auto correct.
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I’m in Denver and have some Zu Diety Weekend speakers so Zu but not one of the more expensive offerings. Should give you the general flavor though. I run them with Bottlehead 2a3 SET monos. I’ve also had line magnetic 845 SET and Prima Luna push pull on them and think the current setup sounds right. Anyways, drop me a message If you want to see the setup.
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I heard the Living Voice in my home with an 300b SET amplifier, and they sounded great. Border Patrol (BorderPatrol.net) is the US representative. The only issue is the size of the room. My overall listening space is large, and the LV did not fill it as well as did the Zu Definition 4. The LV sound reminded me of AudioNote speakers that I heard at dealers or at shows.
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But re-selling is probably harder for all these lesser known brands, eh?
I thought about that before I bought my Bache Audio Tribeca’s. However, I compared the Tribeca’s side by side in my room with speakers that cost slightly more. The Bache’s not only sounded better but they stopped me from buying an even more expensive speaker.
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Ok, just summing up what I've learned so far about this topic, there are a few different axes to navigate.
Sensitivity — while it's clear that there are speakers around 89-90 db and 100 db, what range between those, say, 93-96db (and considering ohms, and graphs about all this as well) is out there. Many options have been raised on this thread.
Re-sale — I'm really learning how many very good speaker companies there are out there that one would never hear of without a forum. That's a great thing to learn, but if this is not an endgame speaker, how hard or at what cost would re-sale be? A Devore would sell easily; Coherent audio or NSMT? Might take a hit. (Then again, one might not pay as much up front...)
Design types — ribbon, concentric, active woofer, open baffle, MTM, etc. Again, a variety of styles to navigate here, all to be cross- referenced with top two factors.
And, yes, of course anything above has to be heard, tried in one's room with one's gear, music, etc. But the reason I single out the above axes of factors is that one needs to figure out which to spend the time trying.
Given the above, did I miss any major axis?
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@mrmanisundaram Thank you! I might do that in the next year or so. I see there is an Audio Note dealer in town, too. Flights from Denver run as low as $27 each way. Small price to pay to hear two very top candidate speakers.
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If u fancy a trip to Kansas City, w some notice, u r welcome to listen to my system. 0/93s with Lejonklou Boazu and DCs network bridge for a source. Best of luck in ur search.
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@charles1dad I'm looking now at those Coherents. I see no reason they might not best Devores for the money. But re-selling is probably harder for all these lesser known brands, eh?
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@keithr
Thanks for your suggestions. Nothing I've heard about Zu makes me think they'd be better than some of the others, here. Classical is a *must* for me. My brother in law loves rock and so he's really headed for Zu. I would love to hear Zu but local options are limited.
I don't think I'm headed all the way down to SET. I am trying to land in the middle, with tube amps running either KT66 up to KT 150 and/or a Pass XA 25 (25 to 50w on peaks).
@charles1dad
There are many very good choices available to suit your objectives.
Thank you for those recommendations. This thread is becoming *everything* I hope for in a forum. Not just recommendations of the usual brands — though hearing personal experiences is very valuable and of course I might actually be able to hear them — but other "under the radar" options. That's how I initially found Salk and Fritz's bookshelves.
One thing I'm learning is that certain makers just aren't *oriented* toward one kind of amplification or another. Not just that their speakers' sensitivities are mostly under 90db, but that even if they have one or two speakers with greater sensitivity, they don't really design with tube amps in mind. That's ok, but it's not exactly easy to glean from the way they describe themselves.
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this is a great thread, so far.
@hilde45
Really depends on your priorities. Zu is basically a single driver speaker, and as such has the pros and cons of such a design. they are big sounding, toneful, and coherent. I do feel they are a little "raw" sounding and gruff with male vocals - think Johnny Cash more of a bass than a baritone. But if coherency is your top criteria than I’d hear them or the Cube Audio Nenuphar. I also don’t think classical is their strong suit. But I think Sean is a brilliant designer and would happily own Druid VIs again.
Devores are a more refined sounding Zu in many respects. They have an exceptional tweeter that is extended but doesn’t draw attention. Very dynamic as well, although not quite full bore as Zu. Both are have vibrant midranges that catch the essence of vocals. The Devore weakness (particularly the Os) is in the bass - he tunes his cabinets depending on frequency. You either love it or not. I loved the Gibbon Xs which had the best bass of the bunch, but were more modern sounding (soundstage, imaging, etc.) than Zu.
I leapt to Fyne really as an upgrade to Devore and joke they are Devore on steroids. the F1s are more coherent, bigger sounding (well my F1s at least) and have very very articulate, deep bass for a ported design. they may lose a bit of treble clarity to Devore but not by much. More coherent design than Devore being a 2-way as well. The Fyne is considerably more modern sounding than a Tannoy with far better bass - I actually like modern point source soundstaging and imaging which they do very well. But they do so with tremendous presence and life. The Fyne weakness is they aren’t SET friendly, despite the efficiency. Or at least not compared with Zu or Devore O. I’ve been down the SET path before, tried 16 different amps/topologies on Zu and don’t feel the need for the second harmonic explosion and unacceptable bass. Others feel the opposite which is cool. 20 watts push pull or 50 watts class A SS to me is the best of both worlds.
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@hilde45
I believe that you’ve chosen a good path to explore and don’t think you can go wrong with Devore, Audio Note or Fyne Audio speakers. Another option that fits this category is a Canadian speaker from Coherent Audio. Straightforward two way design with about 94-95 db sensitivity and easy to drive 8 ohm impedance load.
Another high quality option is Tonian Labs speakers located in California. They have 95-97 db sensitivity and very easy to drive 16 ohm impedance load with some of their models. There are many very good choices available to suit your objectives.
Charles
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@jjss49 Agree. That's a different path and I need to go down this one, first. But I can keep a list with a second heading that says, "Good Options, Act II."
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atc’s have their strengths but are a totally, and i mean totally, different kettle of fish to what the op is asking for re devore or audio note (and low powered sweetie pie ss se tube amps that could drive them)
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You're welcome. I agree with everything you're saying; my experience as well.
I wish everyone could audition a properly set up pair of active ATC SCM50 or 100ASLT speakers before making their final all important speaker/amplifier decision.
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@vinylvalet Thanks. I have ATC high on my list but I realize I need to go down this path, first. That doesn't preclude other paths. I'm starting to see this hobby as composed of genres -- various combos of amps and speakers of different types, all with different types of synergies. It may be a search for the right combo or it may be a search for a combo for now. My hearing could change, my tastes could change, my wallet could change. I am already eyeing some Lyngdorf integrateds for the phase when (maybe) I downsize.
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The best dome I've ever heard is ATC's 3" soft dome midrange. There is nothing else quite like it.
Not really useful information for you as the bigger ATC passive models probably won't match up well with your amps.
Just saying...
Good luck with your search. You're on the right track.
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Great suggestions! I need to decide whether I am a dome or ribbon guy.
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Jim Smith's listening studio is located in Cummings, GA just north of Atlanta.
While there, travel south to Macon and visit The Big House; Allman Brothers museum. As a rock/blues Hammond organ player, it was like going to Mecca.
Then on to Savanah, one of our favorite US cities.
My session with Jim was a game changer.
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Never heard this model of Paradigm but the Founder 120h would work with low watt tube amps only the mids and highs are driven by external amp the subwoofer is built in active.
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@vinylvalet Interesting idea, the RoomPlay session. I searched but cannot find where Jim Smith is located for these sessions. Can you reveal that?
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BTW, Jim Smith of Get Better Sound replaced his Tannoy Canterbury speakers and $10k custom Duelund external crossovers with Fyne F703 speakers after auditioning them at a dealer. If you attend one of his RoomPlay Reference sessions, you'll hear why.
RoomPlay Reference
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Your observations regarding Fyne's lesser models, if you are talking the regular 5xx series, are correct. I don't know how they screwed this up but the Fyne F501 speakers I spent some time with (fully broken in with several amplification choices, both tube and SS), were terrible; bright and edgy. A friend with good ears confirmed what I was hearing.
I've also spent time with the F303 speakers. An outstanding ~$1k speaker.
The F703 speakers I currently have are one of the best speakers I've ever heard.
I have not heard the TOTL F1 series speakers but expect that they would be excellent as they should be at those prices.
The F5xx series voicing completely baffles me.
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@charles1dad Thanks for the additional information about Wharfedale. Given JA's report about those low impedance values, I'd pass on Wharfedale. This was something which steered me away from the Focal 936, and Tvad pointed it out to me. I could *hear* the suck out. Such impedance dips are not good for my amps really -- easily -- driving those speakers. I am determined to avoid them, and there are a variety of speakers which can satisfy that requirement.
Those following this thread closely might look here, an interesting brochure on Apertura speakers.
Note the comparison chart at the bottom. I heard the Edena (89db) and it was driven by a powerful solid state (Goldmund integrated -- Telos 7) and sounded magical. Not sure how they’d sound with tubes.
Take a look at the Adamante and Enigma MKII speakers. 93 and 95db sensitivity, MTM configuration with ribbon tweeter. https://apertura-audio.com/wordpresssetup/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Apertura_Brochure_A4L-12pp_FINAL-WEB.pdf
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From JA, Stereophile on the Wharfedale Diamond 225 speaker,
I used DRA Labs' MLSSA system and a calibrated DPA 4006 microphone to measure the Wharfedale Diamond 225's frequency response in the farfield, and an Earthworks QTC-40 for the nearfield responses. Wharfedale specifies the Diamond 225's voltage sensitivity as 87dB/2.83V/m; my estimate was lower than that, at 85dB/2.83V/m. The speaker's impedance is specified as being "8 ohm compatible," with a minimum value of 4.2 ohms. My measurement is shown in fig.1—an 8 ohm rating would be fair, particularly given the generally moderate phase angle, but the minimum magnitude was 3.87 ohms between 190 and 200Hz.
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I'd like to see an impedance graph for those speakers, or some other data, to know why they perform as Reichert says they do. There is a very big difference in abject power requirements for an 87db vs 93db speaker, so knowing what else is going on would be valuable. At least one thing would be the capability of a solid state First Watt to deliver current vs. my tube amp.
@keithr @vinylvalet I have heard some Fyne in Denver, but not the better models. As a result, I came away unimpressed with Fyne, but I'd be curious to hear better versions.
@keithr Can you say a bit about the qualities that initially attracted you to Zu, then Devore and eventually to Fyne? I have a brother in law on this journey, too, and we'd really like to know how/why things progressed this way for you.
I've not heard the Fyne (F1 or F700 models) but given their design, pedigree and word of mouth reputation, my gut feeling is that they are high quality and very good sounding. Easy to drive 8 ohm impedance and 95 db sensitivity is a very desirable combination.
Charles
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@audioguy85 It's good to know that the Wharfs can do that at 87db. My Salks don't do that at 87 db and I've tried numerous other speakers at around those sensitivities that are also not so nimble as what Reichert says he heard.
I'd like to see an impedance graph for those speakers, or some other data, to know why they perform as Reichert says they do. There is a very big difference in abject power requirements for an 87db vs 93db speaker, so knowing what else is going on would be valuable. At least one thing would be the capability of a solid state First Watt to deliver current vs. my tube amp.
@keithr @vinylvalet I have heard some Fyne in Denver, but not the better models. As a result, I came away unimpressed with Fyne, but I'd be curious to hear better versions.
@keithr Can you say a bit about the qualities that initially attracted you to Zu, then Devore and eventually to Fyne? I have a brother in law on this journey, too, and we'd really like to know how/why things progressed this way for you.
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+3 Fyne. I'm currently driving F703 speakers with Manley Mahi monos in triode mode (20W) in a fairly large room.
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I’ve owned Zu Defs, then Devore Gibbon Xs, but now own (and prefer) Fyne. They have a Denver dealer. I run them with 20 watts.
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I present this excerpt from a review by Herb Reichert of the Wharfedale diamond 225 speaker at 87 db sensitivity. My point being that you don't necessarily have to buy a 90db and above speaker in order to drive it well with a relatively low watt amp.
Listening with the First Watt J2
Forget cake walks and froufrou Parisian modernists—bring us now the timeless teen thrash and hard-raking boogie machine we call Metallica. If you can't get on and ride their explosive 1986 album, Master of Puppets (CD, Elektra 60439-2), I feel sorry for your cheesy lounge-singer soul. Metallica's guitar sounds and hyper-drivin', amped-up rhythms never fail to cut me through to the gut.
I wanted to find out if the 25W of First Watt's J2, designed by Pass Labs' Nelson Pass, would be enough power to make me, Metallica, and the Wharfedale 225s skip, mosh, and fist-pump through some densely vibrating air. I cranked "Battery" to old-man loud, and holy effing shit—these shiny little Brit boxes lit a hot flame that belied their size. They sawed fast and pounded hard. They got me up. I felt loose and free like I was 23. With easy clarity and ambitious drive, they powered my small room to average levels of 89dB and peaks of 96dB. No overcompressed muck. No congealed textures. No distortions of grainy hardness or stuttering vagary.
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An extremely overlooked speaker is living voice ibx line. they are hard to get in states borber patrol audio they are end game for high effincy speakers.not talking out of my ass i have owned every everything from kharma 3.2 to innersound panels and still have them. and lots of speaker not in same league.only speaker i would own in price class is tonian labs
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@69zoso69 To message, click on the user name in the thread and hold it down. You'll see an option that says "Message user."
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Hello Hilde45,
You requested we DM you if interested. Silly question, but how do we DM folks here?
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Informative thread. Two weeks ago I stopped at Arizona Hi-Fi. They had a pair of the Devore O/96s set aside in their listening room. They were definitely something to be seen, and the first speaker my wife actually had questions about. Didn't have a chance to listen, but beautiful speakers nonetheless.
If we're talking about Zu and cross shopping, there's Omega Speakers, too - their Instagram page shows more than the website. Curious to see where you land hilde45!
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@larry5729 I have been to Soundings before and it is a good store, though increasingly focused on home installation.
Which speakers at that store are particularly high efficiency because that is the point of my question and I have not identified such speakers at that store yet. Please let me know?
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If you're considering Tannoy, then it would probably behoove you to add Fyne to the list. Many people are reporting excellent results with them, and some prefer them over Tannoy. BTW Fyne is a little easier to drive than the Apertura you auditioned.
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@whart
But, I'm down with high efficiency speakers and low powered tube amps as a good way to reproduce music.
+1
Charles
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I would recommend Soundings off Belleview in the Denver Tech Center. While you are there have Jess demo their Master Set. I am going to have them do this with my system in January. Their Chario bookshelf speakers image well.
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@hilde45
My bad, I meant the X-Statics. The X3s, as you say, are all open. My speculation was that the hybrid design of the X-Statics, with the sealed enclosure low end, might sound more familiar to those most familiar with boxes.
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The newer X3's are OB all the way down. The bass is powered but open. I think the design changed.
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@hilde45
Agreed the OB experience is distinctive, and and perhaps a bit disconcerting, if you're used to the punchiness of boxes, as I am. (Ditto omnis and planars.)
The X3s, unlike those Spatials, are a hybrid design, with the bass drivers in a sealed box. Maybe a good compromise?
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@ghasley
can you broadly describe your room and the desired setup?
It is 26.5ft x 15.5 ft. x 7.75 ft. Normal rectangle with a couple window wells (it’s in a basement). I would be able to do whichever treatments, rugs, etc. seemed appropriate after choosing the right speakers to go with my 60wpc tube gear.
I’m not moved into the room yet. It was just created -- double drywall on ceilings with thicker drywall on walls and dedicated outlets and panel w/ surge suppressor at panel.
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@jdoris I spent 3 hours listening to the Spatial X3's the other day. Quite enveloping and lovely. I'm not sure I fully love that approach to sound, but it may merely be the foreign-ness of it, compared to my decades of listening to box speakers.
One thing is for sure: a big, well made AMT tweeter is a magical contributor.
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I just bought Tannoy Turnberrys and I will never go back to anything below 93db efficient.
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I didn't recognize any open baffle speakers on your original list, but if you're casting your net more widely, I'd vote for giving some a listen.
It's a distinctive presentation, but if you can give them lots of room to breathe, and an airy, holographic, soundstage you can "walk into" sounds appealing, you might like them a lot.
Since you mentioned GR in another thread, I'll say that I very happily lived with the 91db X-Statics for a year (while working away from home) using a modest 25wpc Napa hybrid amp.
I'm not sure what models to commend at a pricepoint comparable to, say the Devores (the X-Statics are much cheaper), although I know GR used to make more ambitious models, like the Super-V. (As a bonus, some OB models make comparatively easy builds, if you're into that.)
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@lalitk — I will add Tannoy! Yes! I forgot about them. And I suspect we'd get on famously. I'll let you know if I go back to Houston. Gotta see the Menil again…been too long. Cube added to list. Hey — have you ever heard Pearl Acoustics' speakers?
@fgbbill Love Fredericksburg. Had some romantic times at a tiny little A-frame called, I think, Gasthaus Schmidt with my new bride, a Texan!
@carlsbad No, I won't overlook Tektons. And I'm not against modding, for sure. Thanks!
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