Distributed Bass Array configuration


Please, I don't want to debate the merits of the DBA nor of those who espouse it. I am considering adding two more subwoofers to a system that has two already. To those who use a DBA,I am interested in how you have configured them, specifically--
  1. Do you run in mono, or do you split the array to run in stereo?
  2. What is your approach to setting phase (delay) among speakers that may be facing different directions and are different distances from the listener?
Thanks!
mike_in_nc

Showing 8 responses by mijostyn

Doogiehowser, people listening to my system have ZERO problem localizing 100hz. I use a stereo subwoofer system because I cross at 120 Hz 48 dB/oct.
Most bass is mixed towards the center. Because all the speakers producing bass are closer together than 4 feet and have exactly the same group delay they act acoustically as one driver. Because they stretch from one boundary (wall) to another they form an infinite line source. 

Those of you not using a high pass filter on your main speakers are missing out on a chance to significantly lower distortion in their main speakers. Just because a speaker is specified to go down to 40 Hz does not mean it stops moving at 39 Hz. It can’t project frequencies below 40 Hz but, it is still going to try , wasting power and increasing distortion. I would suggest spending some money on a decent crossover instead of buying cable elevators.
@mike_in_nc , my solution to that problem is 1 slow the fan down, 2 change to a quieter fan or 3 disconnect the fan altogether and provide other cooling. It has a bigger processor and runs much faster.
millercarbon I am afraid you are dead wrong in asserting time and phase do not matter. You are saying this because you have no control over them. If you did you would be piping a different story. Out of phase and time destroys bass transients like kick drums and thumbing bass guitar strings. If you had the ability to control phase and time you would know otherwise. 
Great Mike, I recommend the Anthem all the time along with the Trinnov Amethyst and the DEQX units. I need to look into the MiniDSP units as they are even less expensive and seem capable. 

I have not heard your speakers but I am a big ESL fan. They are point source. I would add two more JL subs in the front corners. 80 Hz is fine, 24 to 48 dB/oct. 

The TacT has very proprietary circuitry. You really can not do anything with it. Shame what happened to it. I plan on getting the Trinnov but I won't like losing the dynamic loudness programming. 

If you can create separate target curves for the channels work on EQing the speakers so their frequency response matches perfectly 100 Hz to 10 kHz. You will like what happens to your imaging. You have to look at it with your measurement system. The room control programming will not do this. It is well worth the work. 
Mike_in_nc, if you get an acoustic measurement mic and program like this one, https://www.parts-express.com/Dayton-Audio-OmniMic-V2-Acoustic-Measurement-System-390-792
You can measure group delays and frequency response. You should be able to adjust your subs perfectly.  I assume with their location you are using a low crossover point. What are you using for your main speakers?
Where you place them depends on your main speakers. Subs always perform best in corners. They are up to 9 dB more efficient which means much less distortion. For point source main speakers four subs in four corners would be ideal but two in corners and two right up against side walls would be a close second. A sub should never be in the middle of the room. That is like running your outboard motor out of water. For maximum dynamics you have to be able to adjust delays so the sound from your subs gets to the listening position at exactly the same time and in phase with the sound from your main speakers. This requires digital bass management. Are you still using a digital crossover? What happened to the 2.2X? Yes, Apogees have a reputation they do not deserve. They were capable of amazing sound on occasion but their fragility disqualifies them. Magnepans are a much better design from a reliability standpoint and if a ribbon tweeter blows (which they do rather frequently) Magnepan has a great tweeter replacement program and if you can use a screw driver you can change the tweeter. Apogee went belly up for a reason. 
Hilde 45, Right, of course there is stereo bass. you just can't hear it somewhere below 80 Hz. Sound always has a direction even though in a room it can be confused. Mr McGowan is a snake oil salesman. There are far better experts I care to listen to like Siegfried Linkwitz, Nelson Pass, John Curl, Roger Sanders, Edgar Villchur and groups at Shure, JBL, Harmon Kardin (now Harmon International) and others.
I am not an acoustic engineer however I do design and build my own subwoofers and I have been intensely studying the problem since 1978 when I got my first subwoofer system comprised of first one then two RH Labs subs, a Dalquist DQ-LP1 crossover and Kenwood L07-M amplifiers, SOTA in the day. It became obvious pretty fast that one subwoofer would not do. This is 1978 and many here were still in diapers. An expert by the way is anyone who parrots what you want to hear:-) I was using ESLs so it was not a Radio Shack system. I had an efficiency apartment, a single large room almost perfect for Hi Fi. I use to take a break mid day when everyone was at work and blast myself silly. I digress. Even with two subwoofers there were problems. I could always tell the subwoofers were there when I got them up to realistic levels. It also became obvious quickly that the ESLs sounded better when I got the crossover point up above 100. But, the subwoofers became more obvious. In the end I never got that system to the level it could have performed at with the right electronics but, they were not available then. Everybody else thought it was a dynamite system. I had it in my head that it was possible to make a system that was as gratifying aurally as a live concert and that system was not. Back then, because of the difficulty integrating subwoofers they were considered taboo by the high end establishment. But, none of their systems were as gratifying as a live performance either and to my mind low bass was the biggest problem. I sold that system on leaving Miami and took a break from subs for several years. I was in a regular apartment building in Ohio with wood construction and subwoofers would probably have gotten me lynched. I did discover line source loudspeakers during this period in the form of Acoustat 2+2's and with Krell KMA 100s they sounded marvelous, still no deep low end and still not representative of a live performance. The two main issues were bass and imaging. Every system I had ever heard sounded like the audio version of a TV screen. It was not instruments standing in a space. You could hear the third dimension but it did not encompass the instruments and voices, if this makes any sense. You could hear the size of the venue and items were localized side to side. Just like a TV screen, you can see the size of the space but the third dimension is missing. Even today very few systems are capable of creating the third dimension. Does the band really sound as if it is standing in your room, are you sitting in the venue? People talk about  3 dimensional sound, the third dimension. What they really mean is they can hear the size of the venue like you can see it on a TV screen. Creating 3 dimensional sound requires near perfect imaging and bass. Low bass creates that feeling of air around the instruments. To get the effect you have to have both. Most systems have damaged imaging because the frequency response of the main speakers is not exactly the same. 
 In 1987 I moved back to New England and waiting for me there was a brand new pair of Apogee Divas. The most frustrating speaker I have ever owned. When they were on they were incredible, incredibly fragile and flawed. I destroyed ribbons for 6 years before returning to Acoustat 2+2s. With the Divas I did start up again with subwoofers using the original Velodynes. They were not as good as the old RH labs units. There were no subwoofers on the market I really liked.  In 2000 my Krell preamp got taken out by a lightening strike. I used the insurance money to buy a TacT TCS. I used the multiple channels to biamp the Divas and the bass management system gave me the flexibility to build my own subwoofers and for the first time integrate the subwoofers to the point that they disappeared. Digital signal processing allows you to put the subs where they belong, in corners, and get them matched up in time and phase with the main speakers. Lucky me has a brother with a PhD in aquatic acoustics from MIT. After a lot of scotch, long discussions and some computer math. We came up with the four subwoofer array I still use today 20 years later. I am now working on my fourth and hopefully final version of my subwoofers comprised of four enclosures and 8 12" drivers. I use full range ESLs so the crossover will be in and around 120 Hz 4th or 6th order both high and low pass filters. 
With dynamic loudspeakers that cross out of their woofer below 500 Hz there is no reason to run a crossover this high. 80 Hz is fine but to benefit you have to use a 2 way crossover. Adding a subwoofer in at 40 Hz is IMHO worthless. Very few speakers can project anything under 60 Hz with authority. I always have frequency response specs quoted, " my speaker goes from 25Hz to 50 kHz." Right, at one meter, not to mention that it was already 3 dB down at 25 hz at 1 meter. The idea behind  subwoofers is to project with authority frequencies your main speaker can't down to 20 Hz at 3 meters in a real room, flat. And, to relieve the main speakers from having to reproduce these frequencies which seriously distort everything else the main woofer is doing because of the long excursions they require. 
Subwoofers have to be corrected so that they match the main speakers in phase and time. in order to do this you have to use a digital crossover and correction. It is virtually impossible to do it with an analog crossover and if you think you can do it by ear I have a wonderful piece of property to sell you in Key West. 
OP, my inclination is to always use stereo subwoofers. Most bass is mixed towards the center anyway. 

Hilde45, very poor choice of experts. Mr McGowan is a businessman with poor hearing. His objective is to make money by any means possible. He is reasonable good at that. I suck at it. 
Most of these people making comments here on this subject are using 3rd if not fourth rate equipment and are running their subwoofers without a high pass filter on the main speakers, people who listen to Yello on Tekton loudspeakers.  There is no way in ---- you can get decent bass out of a system that way. The main weakness of a distributed array system is that there is no way to control time with it. You can not get the impulse from the subwoofers and your main speakers to your ear at exactly the same instant. The result is a mess. But, it really does not matteras none of these people have a way to deal with the problem anyway. They would rather spend their money on cable elevators. 
Like always it depends. It depends on the crossover point which depends on the type of main speakers you are using. Any full range loudspeaker benefits from a higher crossover point. Any system with a crossover point above 80 should be using stereo subwoofers in a symmetrical array with the main speakers. Any line source main speaker set up should have a line source subwoofer array. This usually requires more than 2 subwoofers, 4 in most residential settings. If the crossover point is below 80 hz there is no problem I can think of with mono subs only benefits. It will not hamper envelopment at all. Having said this I prefer higher crossover points. I think if phase and delays are handled properly there are no disadvantages only benefits in headroom and distortion levels. This is crucial for full range main speakers, just my humble opinion.