Do distortion 's affect enjoyment of speaker?

Bifwynne, I understand the general thrust of what you're saying regarding use of high order crossovers, but it's not that simple. I see you pulled out that favorite red herring whenever this subject comes up in Magico discussions; Atkinson's measurements of the Q5. Firstly Magico themselves never claimed the S5 was 100% time coherent (though I suspect it gets close).

Secondly, Q5 was released over 4 years ago and was the first model in the Q series. The S5's crossovers (like Q7) are an evolution of the Elliptical design in the Q5, though obviously tailored for that speaker. You described the 4th order crossover used in the S5's as a design compromise as though the crossover design was a conventional 4th order crossover. It is not. Martin Colloms provided this summary of S5's crossover technology in his review for Hifi Critic -

"Crossovers are tailored to deliver flat pass-band responses with superior and symmetrical phase summation, and faster out-of-band roll-offs using modified 'elliptical’ filters. Copper foil inductors and special Mundorf capacitors are used", and further noted in conclusion - "..it’s clear that the S5 is the product of years of careful research into materials technology, room matching, decay resonance, group delay and distortion control, a concertedly global approach to total loudspeaker system design to try to make the loudspeaker disappear and thus not constitute the usual, recognisable and characterful link in the sound reproducing chain. In achieving this very high standard of natural dynamics, very low distortion, vanishingly low coloration, very low fatigue, exceptional transparency and an almost magically powerful, speedy, upbeat bass, the Magico team should be applauded."

With the above said, achieving absolute time and phase coherency does not guarantee good sound as Doug Schneider noted in this article relating to the Soundstage review of the S5's - http://www.soundstagehifi.com/index.php/reader-feedback/668-magico-s5-review-and-time-and-phase-accuracy

Agreed re: Wilson.

08-07-14: Melbguy1
Bombaywalla, I acknowledge your fair comments. However on the one
hand Magico are telling me the S5's are time coherent, and on the other
you are telling me they are not. One might ask who do you believe? May I
pose this question to you, Is a speaker either time coherent or not? Or can
there be different degrees in between? And are (objective) measurements
more important than (subjective) listening in assessing the overall
coherency of a speaker?
Melbguy1

hi Melbguy1
who do I believe? I believe myself & my research & my understanding of the matter.
The S5 are not time-coherent if they use higher order x-over i.e. 2nd order or higher. Period.
Bifwynne's answer/post is exactly correct re. the S5. The use of higher order x-over destroys the phase difference relationship amongst the various frequencies in the audio band 20Hz-20KHz. The physics of using a higher order x-over prevents the speaker from being time-coherent.
Doug Schneider's review of the S5 is a nice read but Doug is not trained in engineering math & physics to understand the subtleties between phase coherence & time coherence. So, I would not latch onto Doug's words & find comfort in them re. the speakers being time-coherent.
Like Bifwynne wrote, you can still buy & like the S5. Just don't call it time-coherent - it's at best phase coherent/phase linear at its x-over frequencies.

Is a speaker either time coherent or not? Or can
there be different degrees in between? And are (objective) measurements
more important than (subjective) listening in assessing the overall
coherency of a speaker?
Melbguy1

either a speaker is time-coherent or it's not. There's nothing in between - just varying degrees of time-INcoherence. Those like Magico (which are time-incoherent) try to minimize the distortions & other brands have them worse.
Objective measurements verify that the speaker is time-coherent or not (see Stereophile measurements over the years of various time-coherent speakers). And, subjective listening verifies the measurements. Listening & listening carefully with the right kind of music is important towards assessing the merits of any speaker & is always recommended.

Bombaywalla. You invested much time in pressing your point labeling the
S5's as time IN-coherent as you put it. Somehow I find your comments
overly-forensic and rigid (which is I suspect how you like your music to
sound). Let's ignore all the rave reviews of the S5's, let's ignore thier strong
sales. Let's ignore the fact I own a pair and have over 500 hrs logged
listening to them and could not possibly have a well considered view of
their sound. Let's even ignore the fact you own panel speakers and
could not possibly be heavily invested in a completely divergent point of
view. Indeed let's pretend you are open minded and completely objective
for a moment. If I had to choose the viewpoint of a well respected reviewer
with over 20 years experience who spends more time listening to speakers
than someone who spends every waking hour reading Freshman textbooks
on acoustical engineering or staring at waterfall plots, whose view do you
think i'm more likely to respect?

Bombywalla,
I always find your comments interesting and informative. This topic is no exception, I just came across it very recently. Are first order crossovers a prerequisite for proper time alignment?
Would a single driver crossoverless speaker be another example of true time alignment?
Are you able to consistently hear the results of time alignment?
Thanks,
Charles,