@diertiti - UP-OCC is a process and to be able to use that particular "code" i would have to guess that it is very tightly controlled and therefore the quality is consistent across all brands.
I would also like to think that Parts Connecxion also has protocols in place when sourcing their products which would ensure product quality.
You could try calling Parts Connecxion and see if they can put your mind at rest
But - If you are concerned about the quality you should buy the Neotech wire
I have not tried it, but there may be others that have
Sorry I could not be more helpful |
UPDATE: regarding Balanced Symetrical Amplifiers A few weeks ago I posted some updates to my web site identifying some amps that would not sound their best if a regular Helix cable were used with them. I have now posted an adaption to the helix design that should work very well with these amps Please see this link for the details if interested http://www.image99.net/blog/files/b4dd81de6d4c72aa5052e5692987a506-81.html. This approach could be used with amps that employ a single ended design also if desired... - takes a bit more fabrication effort
- but the wire may end up costing a little less
At present, this is just in the design stage, but a fellow Agoner will be trying this approach to see how it performs compared to a conventional speaker cable Stay tuned :-) Regards - Steve |
@jambaj I have read about (and observed on YouTube) noises (i.e. hum) that do not change volume when the volume control is adjusted on tube gear. It can be due to the design of a specific brand of tube. It is related to the actual "design" of the plates and heater within the tube. Sometimes changing the tube to another brand will fix this situation. Unfortunately there is no way of knowing which brands will work So far I have only heard of one other incident from an Audiogon member where a hum was observed on a tube power amp after installing a Helix power cable. But that amp had a lot of tubes, so trying to debug the issue proved to be a challenge, so the member just used his previous cable Can you try - reseating the tubes
- switching the tubes around
Do you have any different brands of tubes you can try? I would try the old cable again - if the noise is still there then it might be due to a tube that is close to failing? BUT - Why did this happen with the Helix Cable? Unfortunately, component designers can push their designs very close to a "limit" to squeeze out every ounce of performance - they do not know what components and cables you will be using with their product
- so changing something as simple as a power cable can cause issues.
I have experience component failure once before after a braided power cable was used with it - the root cause of that failure was in fact the speaker cables being used - not the power cable
- the new power cable allowed the amp to work more efficiently, which caused it to exceed a "threshold" and the amp failed
- once the speaker cables were changed the amp worked perfectly with the new power cable
Keep us posted on your progress Regards - Steve |
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@jambaj - since... - the sound is still there even with the Morrow PC AND
- since it appears to be intermittent AND
- since changing the tubes did not fix the noise
I am starting to think that some other internal component, like a capacitor, is starting to fail perhaps?
I think because of the symptoms you have described and the remedial actions you have taken so far we can rule out both power cables and tubes as being the cause of the noise
@williewonka it doesn't sound like either hums. Doesn't really sound like an electrical hum/buzz nor does it stay in one frequency
If the frequency is varying , could it be a source component causing the issue? - does it still make the noise with all sources disconnected?
Also - How old is the Cayin HA-300
Regards - Steve |
@jambaj - It’s likely the problem would have occurred at some point in time, even with the Morrow Power Cable because it sounds like the tube was on the brink of failing
Tubes can be problematic at the best of times, especially when used in designs that operate right up to the boundaries of a tube’s limitations.
I’m glad you found the problem, but I do think it was an unfortunate coincidence that a failure happened at the same you tried the Helix PC
The root cause of the buzzing was the failure of a single tune on one channel. Had there been some sort of power cable related issue it could have impacted multiple tubes on both channels or even worse the entire component
One thing I have observed - Helix cables actually allow solid state components to operate more efficiently, resulting in lower operating temperatures. This is one reason I do not believe the helix Power cable contributed to your issue
One issue I had with my Chinese built integrated tube amp - they used the wrong transformer for the Canadian market - it was rated at 100v and not 120v and as a consequence the heater voltages were 20% higher than the tubes were expecting, so it quite literally "burned through" tubes ever 6 months.at $300 per set. The company didn’t even admit this was a problem when I pointed it out to them and refused to fix the problem. I had it rebuilt and sold it - never again
I now avoid Chinese built products like the plague - I don’t care how good the reviews are!
As for getting a refund on the Power Cable - The Helix PC is NOT the cause of the problem - therefore the builder of the cable is not really at fault here AND it is a custom build - not a stock item than can be resold.
If you want to get rid of it - perhaps one of the readers of this thread will buy it from you - anyone interested?.
Regards - Steve |
@jambaj As I said in one of the posts above, Unfortunately, component designers can push their designs very close to a "limit" to squeeze out every ounce of performance
- they do not know what components and cables you will be using with their product
- so changing something as simple as a power cable can cause issues.
I have experienced component failure once before after a braided power cable was used with it
- the root cause of that failure was in fact the speaker cables being used - not the power cable
- the new power cable allowed the amp to work more efficiently, which caused it to exceed a "threshold" and the amp failed
- once the speaker cables were changed the amp worked perfectly with the new power cable
I am extremely hawkish on finding the root cause of a problem, because without knowing the cause, a permanent and reliable "fix" cannot be implemented. In your case - it appears to have been a simple problematic "tube issue" - or was it? could there be something in the design of the amp? When I experienced problems with my Chinese Tube amp - I thought - "it must have been the tubes"
- when I suffered a second failure I went looking for problems with that amp
- I found reports it had been poorly constructed.
- I was lucky in that I found a technician that was very familiar with the problems related to my amp and fixed it for a reasonable fee
So, for me there are two questions... - am I confident the Helix Power cable WILL NOT be the CAUSE of any future issues? - and my answer to that is YES, I am very confident!
- am I confident your amp will not suffer any further problems? - unfortunately the answer to that is NO!
Amps are extremely complicated when compared to a simple power cable there are tubes, transformers, capacitors resistors etc. any of which can go wrong Factor in things like " a "leaker," or gassy tube" and it increases the probability for something to "fail" I have had the Helix power cables on every single piece of audio equipment I own, for over 4 years, and to date - not one component has had any issues. If I were in your position - I would have the amp looked at by someone that is very experienced with fixing tube gear. It might have been something as simple as a "leaker or gassy tube", but it could be something more serious. When something fails - there is a very specific reason and sometime it is not what we might be suspecting. In my case my amp had the wrong power transformer, underrated resistors/capacitors, and underrated PCB traces - all of which had no real impact on sound quality - the only issue - it destroyed tubes after just six months of use. By contrast - a friend of mine is still using the same tubes for 35 years - his amp was a great design and it was well built. One last thought - WRT the comment you received from Western Electric I would write to "The Tube Store" and ask them the same question and see what they say. www.thetubestore.com - Your online source for audio vacuum tubes. I purchased all my tubes from them and they ensure all the tubes they send out are in pristine condition. You might want to try tubes from there in future - just a thought :-) Regards - Steve |
One last thing - I have compared the the LCR measurements of the Helix cables to some other cables - and they are basically "Goldilocks Cables" - i.e. not too firm and not too soft :-)
- i.e. Their measure values were in the "middle of the pack"
- from a zip cord cable
- to Stock Cables from Bryston and Naim
- and custom cables made from Furutech wire and DH Labs bulk wire.
Some people will postulate that the Coil "must" cause some issues
- IT DOES NOT!
- the Helix Coil is he NEUTRAL and so is basically at zero volts
The Helix cables have been "vetted" by some very experienced audiophiles from around the world and to this day, not one person has expressed any concerns about the design
I hope that provides some level of comfort
Regards - Steve
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@jambaj - I don't want to worry you, but regarding
So I actually had the Cayin HA-300 for a year and 5 months, and two months ago, my one of Psvane ACME 300b tube flashed white and resulted in a -20dB drop on my right channel. Turned out it fried a wire-wound resistor.
and
He swapped out the resistor per the factory schematics, tested the amp and said everything worked out and he said the amp is in great condition.
If a wire wound resistor fails it is probably because it is operating close to it's upper power handling limitations. Which implies the components selected by the designers may not be best suited for the task. Simply replacing the resistor to "factory specs" might result in the same problem occurring further down the road. My technician "upgraded" to resistors that could handle the actual load with ease, because he felt the designers were "pushing the limits" of the resistors they had originally selected I think if I were in your position, especially since the amp is on for prolonged periods, and especially since you had an issue with the Psvane tubes as well - I might want to get a second opinion, i.e. before something else happens Regards - Steve |
@jambaj - Thanks for taking the time to reach out to the engineer So basically - the designer of the Cayin amp has elected to use a "sacrificial resistor" as a circuit protection device And here was I thinking that’s what fuses were for.:-) But seriously, I have also looked into this further and it appears there is no right or wrong way, just a choice made by the amp designer QUESTION: Should a resistor be "used in place of a fuse" ? - some believe fuses should be used to protect the circuit
- others believe fuses degrade sound, so using a resistor for this purpose is an "acceptable risk" in order to achieve the best sound quality possible
- Some designers use purpose built breakers
Here an interesting thread on Agon that discuses a similar topic Tube Amp - Output Power Fuse Protection | Audiogon Discussion ForumSo which "design" does a person choose ? - If "flashing" is a rare occurrence, then selecting amps like the Cayin you are hedging your bets that it will "likely" never happen, but if it does - you accept the risk and pay for the repair each time, but sound quality will be optimum, however, the more you use it "the more likely" it is to happen
- OR - you select an amp that uses a fuse/breaker to protect the circuit, in which case you "may" suffer some sound degradation
It’s a similar style of "choice" I recently made... - My previous Naim amp was very good, but the power supply Caps only last around 10-12 years before failing - it wqs designed that way - mine failed and that repair was around $400 and took about 4 weeks
- Other amps - like my current Bryston, comes with a 20 year warranty - so it will likely not fail, and possibly go on to run for even longer.
For me - I do not like being without the "hub of my system" for any length of time, so I replaced the NAIM with the Bryston. My choice, but I now have peace of mind in that the design: does not rely on components that WILL fail (i.e. the capacitors) In my case - it is guaranteed that the caps WILL fail at some point In your case - it was just an occurrence that may never have happened One thing for sure - we now understand the design approach used in the Cayin, the problem that only "may" occur and the outcome, which is of great value going forward.. Regards - Steve |
UP-OCC bare copper wire from Parts Connexion vs. other sources I have just installed 2 x 14 gauge (effectively 11 gauge) solid signal wires made from the bare UP-OCC copper from Parts Connexion in my speaker cables - each wire is in it’s own Teflon sleeve, with a gentle twist. The neutral conductor is 10 gauige stranded, silver plated Mil-Spec OCC6N Copper Hook-Up Wire (partsconnexion.com) My previous cables had a 2 x 16 gauge bare Neotech UP-OCC signal wire, twisted together inside a single Teflon tube The neutral conductor is 10 gauige stranded, silver plated Mil-Spec The quality of this wire appears to be the same as the Neotech or VH audio wire - just without any insulation, so it is perfect for building the Helix IMAGE (Air) variant. Auditioning the new cables revealed a slight improvement in dynamics, but all the other metrics were too close to discern any improvements regarding image, fine details and clarity. - I figure this is due to the larger gauge and also using a Teflon tube for each of the two wires, in place of two wires in a single teflon tube
The wire seemed noticeably stiffer than the the 14 gauge neotech wire I had used on my power cables, which requires a little more effort when fabricating the cables. One other thing I tried was using the 2 x 14 gauge wires as the neutral conductor (but NOT coiled), just to see if there might be an advantage - this revealed more details, faster dynamics, but I felt the resulting sound was too "analytical" and overly "crisp" for my own personal taste. The one strange thing of note on Parts Connexion web site - all other gauges of this wire were "price/foot", but the 14 gauge was "price/meter". Using this wire for the Helix IMAGE (Air) saves a significant amount of time spent removing the insulation from Neotech and VH Audio UPP-OCC wires - well worth while :-) Hope you find this useful Regards - Steve . |
@ eugeniy - RE: " how far were the hot and neutral wires?" I think you are referring to One other thing I tried was using the 2 x 14 gauge wires as the neutral conductor (but NOT coiled) To try this I used two sets of Helix speaker cables, but I did not connect the helix coils - I just used signal wire in one cable for the +ve and the signal wire in the other cable for the -ve Both cables had the coils in place, but not connected and were 1-2" apart. However, after trying the Air adaption (i.e. bare wire inside Teflon tube) on a few cables I now suspect that the proximity effect may have more to do with the insulation being used, than the issue of induction between wires. It may be that having an air gap between the wire and the Teflon tube is enough of a gap, such that the two conductors can now be inserted into an expandable sleeve, side by side, without impacting sound quality, but I am yet to try this I think that you can provide even more "spacing" by inserting each twisted pair conductor inside its own cotton sleeve. This could make the Helix coil redundant, if this is the case. It would certainly make fabrication so much easier with the advantage that the cable will now work with those amps that employ a symmetrical balanced design as well. What about the rest of the Helix cables - can this approach be applied to Interconnects and power cables? - It probably could, but I think using this new approach you would end up with a thicker and much stiffer cable. And while it works for speaker cables, - power cables might not work as well because of the higher voltage
- And a thicker interconnect cable might make installing the RCA problematic
WRT: what I observed i.e. - this revealed more details, faster dynamics, but I felt the resulting sound was too "analytical" and overly "crisp" for my own personal taste. Not everything in this particular scenario was "equal" - one cable used a 2 x 16 gauge twisted pair inside a teflon tube (i.e. for the signal wire)
- the other use 2 x 14 gauge with each wire inside it’s own teflon tube (i.e. for the neutral wire)
- this may have accounted for my observation
This was a test just to get an "idea" of what might be possible using the wires/cables at hand and my normal "rigour" was not applied, so I will reserve my "complete judgment" once I get to make up a cable using the approach described above - but it does look very promising. The saga continues :-) BTW - the support from everyone in this thread is greatly appreciated and is inspiration for the continued developments. Regards - Steve |
@grannyring - I agree - I think it's much like selecting a pair of speakers - each person hears differently, so different people will have their own preferences.as to what type of speaker they will choose.
There is no right or wrong, just a personal preference
Unfortunately - finding those personal preferences is the challenge, but "trusting our ears" is the only way to proceed
Regards - Steve
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@pindac - the PC Tripple C copper is very similar to UP-OCC copper, in that the crystalline structure has been modified to allow for better signal transfer.
I have not tried the PC Tripple C, but from the literature I have read it looks as though it would provide very similar benefits.
But there is also UP-OCC SOLID SILVER wire, which improves on extremely fine details and dynamics - provided your system can resolve to that level.
But as both myself and @grannyring has mentioned - we "dialed back" on some of our wire choices in certain instances, simply because we found the sound of a particular wire/insulation/geometry combination to be "less musical"
But - either wire would make a fine cable.
If anyone else has compared the UP-OCC wire to the PC Trippe C wire, please share your thoughts with us
Regards - Steve |
Apologies - I had to repost this because I made a mistake on the interconnects - I now use 2 x 18 gauge bare UP-OCC with each wire inside a Teflon tube with a gentle twist For speaker cables - SIGNAL WIRE: 2 x 14 gauge bare UP-OCC wire,
- with each wire in a teflon tube with a gentle twist
- NEUTRAL 10 gauge silver plated stranded Mil-Spec Helix
- NOTE: I did try Solid UP-OCC copper, but the Mil-Spec made it more "musical" to my ears.
- NOTE: I did have 2 x 16 gauge, twisted, inside a single Teflon tube as the Signal for quite a while, but the 2 x 14 gauge option provided a little more warmth, dynamics, clarity and a slightly more realistic presentation
For Interconnects - SIGNAL WIRE: 2 x 18 gauge bare UP-OCC
- each wire in a Teflon tube with a gentle twist
- NEUTRAL: 1 x 16 gauge solid UP-OCC with Teflon insulation for the Helix neutral
For the Heavy Duty power cables (i.e. for amps and power distribution) - LIVE: 2 x 14 gauge bare UP-OCC
- with each wire inside a Teflon tube with a gentle twist
- NEUTRAL: 1 x 12 gauge stranded UP-OCC with Teflon insulation
- NOTE: Changing from the stranded Mil-Spec to the stranded UP-OCC copper wire provided improved articulation, better imaging and more bass depth and texture
For Source Power cables - LIVE: 2 x 16 gauge bare UP-OCC
- twisted together and inside a single Teflon tube
- NEUTRAL: 2 x 12 gauge Silver plated stranded Mil-Spec
- NOTE: If you are wondering why I did not change Mil-Spec to the UP-OCC stranded copper as I had with the heavy duty cables - I just liked the sound so much that I did not consider it worth the expense/effort, for what might be a "marginal improvement"
For new readers of this thread, you should also consider/solicit the preferences shared by other members, because there is no "single solution" - just what sounds great to each individual on their systems. If anyone else wants to share their "builds" I believe it would be of great value, since a great deal of what we have all tried is lost in the sheer volume of text that exists in this thread Cheers - Steve |
@dbass - I have reverted back to the original Helix design - i.e. - LIVE: - 2 x 14 gauge each wire inside a Teflon tube
- NEUTRAL: - 1 x 10 gauge silver plated stranded Mil-Spec
After giving this approach a lot more audition and thought, I have concluded it should only be used for those amps that have balanced symmetrical speaker outputs. Spacing the +ve and -ve wire conductor assemblies is an issue and the best/cost effective approach I could think of is to wind a separate coil for each conductor assembly in counter rotating directions - which - prevents the coils from becoming entangled
- maintains some cable flexibility
- minimizes the impact to dielectric constant
- is affordable provided home deport wire is used
Using Solid UP-OCC bare copper wire inside Teflon tubes for both +ve and -ve conductor assemblies will provide extremely detailed and articulate results, but since audiophiles are looking for a more "musical sound" this approach may NOT provide the outcome some may be looking for - I would recommend using a Teflon insulated UP-OCC solid copper wire or even a stranded UP-OCC copper wire with Teflon insulation.
But on those amps that use a more "conventional" design approach and best suited to the original Helix geometry - this construction method will - complicate fabrication considerably
- make the cable very stiff
- offers little benefit WRT "sound quality"
- does not result in any significant cost savings (i.e. if Mil-spec wire is used on a Helix Cable)
It also cannot be "effectively" applied to Interconnects or power cables. Hope hat helps - Steve. |
@eugeniy - agreed - connectors can also be changed to "tune" a systems to one’s personal preferences. However, I think that changing a connector may not provide as much of a change as one might desire, i.e. compared to changing a significantly longer piece of wire. The KLE Bananas that I prefer are the most articulate and musical connectors I have tried, closely followed by the Silver plated pure copper Furez connectors. I prefer to use connectors that are silver plated pure copper, as opposed to some type of copper alloy, like Beryllium copper or Tellurium Copper, because of their reduced conductivity. With connectors, you are limited to the materials that are available, which tends to be a subset of what is available with wire. Then factor in the complexity of the various plating materials and processes that are available and how they also impact sound quality and selecting the right connectors to satisfy your personal sound preference becomes more challenging. But that does not mean it should not be considered - it just adds to the complexity of a cable build and connector selection procedures
- but it can be faster than replacing a piece of wire and more cost effective
However, in the case of Interconnects - selecting something other than the KLE Innovations Harmony RCA’s will degrade their performance significantly if used on a Digital SPDIF interconnect Regards - Steve |
Being .999 grade of silver I would think this would not perform as well as the UP-OCC copper, which is 6-nines (6N) purity.
I had previously used Mundorf solid silver with 1% gold for signal wires, but I found the 6N UP-OCC copper superior for dynamics and details.
The 6N solid UP-OCC copper wire from parts connexion is exceptional
The 5N solid silver UP-OCC Silver is a step up from the copper.
But my personal preference is still the copper
About the only way to determine its effectiveness is to try it and compare it to a known wire.
You might just prefer the sound of this silver wire :-)
Hope that helps
|
@mawe - RE: Wire Purity..- there is one minor addition to your purity rating 99.995% is represented as 4N5.- please see this link
Unfortunately I could find any mention of the purity of the VH Audo copper wire The the Parts Connexion Bare Copper wire is 6N and their Bare Silver wire is 5N - same as the VH Audio Wire Is there a discernible difference between 5N and 6N? - I have tried both VH Audio copper wire and Neotech copper wire - bare, inside Teflon tubes and there appeared to be no difference between the two.
- Unfortunately I was unable to find the purity rating for either of these two wires
- However, changing to the Parts Connexion 6N bare copper wire provided noticeable improvements in the areas of clarity, image and dynamics.
- All of the UP-OCC wires were noticeably better than Mundorf Silver + 1% Gold wire - which is basically only 99% pure - so it's only 2N
But you are correct in that there is a very noticeable difference between OFC and OCC copper wires in the areas of details, clarity, dynamics and image There is also a noticeable difference between Cotton insulation vs. Teflon insulation, on the exact same wire - in the areas of clarity and image So your choice of VH Audio Solid Silver Wire in Cotton is perhaps the best that can currently be achieved for an insulated wire. The AIR adaption (i.e. bare wire inside a Teflon tube) is perhaps the ultimate in wire performance, but I found it can sound a little analytical if used for both the signal and neutral wires, so I reverted back to the Silver Plated copper Mil-spec wire for the neutral conductor on my speaker cables. - But the power cables use Neotech UP-OCC stranded copper wire with Teflon insulation for the neutral
- and the interconnects use 16 gauge Neotech solid UP-OCC copper with Teflon insulation for the neutral
My own preference is for copper - at this point in time - purely from a cost perspective
- and ever since trying the UP-OCC coppers, which I found to provide exceptional performance.
I have tried Mundorf solid silver (1% gold) wires for the signal (interconnects) and Live (power cables), but I believe the 6N OCC copper to be superior to a more "normal grade" of silver wire and is considerably less expensive. I have not yet had the desire to part with my hard earned cash for the solid silver wire from VH Audio - a little too rich for my budget :-)
But as is said many times on Audiogon - "sound quality" is very subjective, so I encourage people to try different wires for themselves. Regards - Steve |
So, I am not one for "Gadgets’, especially gadgets that come in really small sizes and make claims of improving sound quality, just by simply plugging them into the mains outlet But a contact assured me that this particular gadget would make a difference. I researched all the various brands that sell these gadgets and decided to try the ifi AC Purifier, simply because its description of how it works made some sense. AC iPurifier Mains Audio Noise Eliminator - iFi Audio (thecableco.com)It takes the same principle of noise cancelling headphones and applies it to the mains supply. i.e. if it detects noise it generates a signal of the same amplitude as the noise, but 180 degrees out of phase and injects it back into the power supply - therefore cancelling the noise, leaving you with no noise at all (OK very little noise at all) And guess what? - it works - at least on my system But since I have my system kitted out with Helix power cables that do much of the heavy lifting, with respect to eliminating noise , what’s left for the little gadget to do? Well turns out - not a heck of a lot - HOWEVER, what it does do is finish off what the Helix cables started - i.e. get rid of noise that is not the product of the insulation and cable geometry, that can sometimes filter through to the components of a system from the mains supply So to cut to the chase - I observed some minor improvements... - a more focused image
- a deeper image
- a little more articulation, clarity and resolution
- a few more details in the area of venue acoustics
- the gadget takes a couple of days to stop sounding harsh
- you have to try it plugged into different outlets for best results
Is it worth its price point? I thought it was If you already have a power conditioner in the system then it would probably be of little benefit (if at all) I initially tried it on the wall outlet and did not notice any improvement, but I have a 10 ft Helix extension cable that connects to to a Distribution box and my amp, so my guess is 10 ft is too far to have any effect I plug my source components into the power distribution box, so I used a spare outlet on that box and it worked for both sources. The manual states you can employ multiple of these across your system, but to date I have only tried a single unit. I also tried it on - my Bluesound Pulse Mini speaker - there were no perceivable benefits, but the resolution capabilities of this speaker is much lower than my system
- a friends All-Tube system - there were fewer improvements observed here also.
On my own system, the level of improvements seemed to be more noticeable only on the finer end of its resolution capability i.e. the incredibly fine venue acoustic reverberations/echoes and the very subtle improvement in imaging focus and artist placement. For the record - It did not provide an "OMG" moment on my system - the improvements were very subtle, but noticeable
- I guess it really depends how much noise is on your power supply
- It may also provide a more noticeable benefit on systems that do not have Helix Cables
Anyhow - since the Helix geometry is all about eradicating noise, I felt the ifi AC Purifier was worth a mention Happy Listening - Steve |
@pumpwheel - whilst I have not tried these RCA's, I must point out that the contacts are made from
Tellurium Copper which has a lower level of IACS conductivity of 93% as opposed to pure copper as used in the KLE Innovations Harmony range, also silver plated at 101% So from that perspective the
AECO ARP-4045S
would not conduct the signal as well as the KLEI RCA's I first compared the Copper Harmony to the original "Eichman Silver Bullet" RCA's, which apparently had a solid silver center pin, and the Copper Harmony provided easily discernible improvements, - This leads me to believe the improvements are due to the overall design of the RCA and NOT just about the materials used in the pins
Also - the CLASSIC HARMONY are significantly cheaper Hope that helps - Steve |
@ghettocowboy : +1 what @mawe said Deltron and Switchcraft also make XLR’s with silver plated pins at a reasonable price point. I would probably stay with the Neutrik mentioned above because they literally "own this space" and on the plugs from Neutrik and Vampire I have seen/used the overall finish on the Neutrik has been a little nicer looking. Also AMPHENOL makes some nice looking plugs - take a look at this link xlr plugs silver plated pins - Search Results | Newark The ETI are clearly the "Rolls Royce" of those mentioned, but I have no idea as to the level of performance they provide Regards - Steve |
I have not tried them and while I like DH Labs products for their value, it looks like (from reading) that the pins are not plated, just pure copper - this can lead to oxidation in the future, which will degrade signal transfer. I prefer silver plated contacts because - the silver plating prevents the copper from oxidizing
- while silver plating does tarnish over time, the tarnish is only microns thick and can be removed simply by reseating the plug
- this is NOT the case with copper - they may require a more robust cleaning approach
- and I am yet to have to clean any of my silver plated connectors after 10 years of everyday use
Hope that helps - Steve |
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@pumpwheel - whilst I prefer silver plated connectors, I have found copper wire without any plating to provide the better sound quality when used for the signal conductors in the Helix Cables. WRT: copper vs silver - silver has better conductivity and therefore is able to... - provide better dynamic performance
- improved details
- a more focused image with more space
I use bare UP-OCC copper inside a teflon tube for ALL my cables, mainly because of the costs involved with silver. The difference between bare UP-OCC copper vs. bare UP-OCC silver (inside teflon tubes) tend to depend on the system components. If they have the capability of resolving to the very highest levels, then you will hear improvements with silver. For many, the cost of silver prohibits its use for Speaker Cables and power cables and the ROI for these cables is probably less than using silver for signal wires on interconnects. It also depends on whether an individual is hell-bent on squeezing every last drop of performance out of their system (or not) - OR whether they can actually hear the difference in the first place. Of all the tweaks to the Helix design, three adaptions stood out as real winners for me - Using UP-OCC copper (or silver)
- adopting the "Helix Air" adaption i.e. using bare wire inside Teflon tubes for the signal wire(s)
- using two wires for the signal conductor and for the Helix Coil
So the choice really is yours - but I strongly recommend using UP-OCC silver over other "Silver wires" - for example - The Mundorf Silver + 1% gold wire is another choice if you want a more relaxed sound
- but I found UP-OCC copper to better suite my goals.
Hope that helps - Steve |
No problem... In "single ended" designed cables there is... - a conductor (or signal wire) to carry the "signal" (or the "live" in the case of a power cables)
- and a second conductor (or wire) to connect the neutral sides of the circuits of the connected components
However, for "balanced" (XLR) interconnects there is - a +ve signal wire
- a -ve signal wire - which carries the same signal as the +ve, but 180 degrees out of phase
- AND there is also a neutral wire
You can also have balanced power supplies - where the "Live" and "Neutral" conductors (or wires) each carry the same output voltage, but 180 degrees out of phase
- so there is NO actual neutral wire that is at ZERO volts
- The Helix Geometry is not best suited to this kind of power supply
In addition to all of that, some amplifiers are designed as a "fully balanced" symmetrical design, where - the speaker terminals (i.e. both signal and neutral wires) carry the same signal, but 180 degrees out of phase
- but there is NO actual neutral wire that is at ZERO volts
-
The Helix Geometry is not best suited to this kind of Amplifier design
Hope that helps - Steve |
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@toolbox149 - I tried the two wires in a single tube first because from what I had read there should have been little difference. But changing to having each wire in it’s own tube provided better details dynamics and clarity, so that is now my standard configuration. For the neutral wires I still only use - a single strand of 16 gauge UP-OCC in Teflon for the neutral on IC’s
- a single srtand of 10 gauge stranded silver plated milspec for speaker cables
- a single strand of 12 gauge stranded UP-OCC in teflon for Power Cables
Since the neutral is so long (i.e. expensive) I prefer to save a little money vs, the slight improvement in performance that using a double neutral provides. I based this on my observation of the Interconnects. I am assuming (rightly or wrongly) that the speakers cables and power cables have a similar small ROI But if you would like to achieve the best possible result I would recommend a double neutral also. I have tried 4 wires for the live in a power cable and it provided no additional benefits over two wires, so I stay with two wires for all cables OFC 4N is probably the reason for the harshness, because the OCC process provides a much smooth signal transfer, regardless of purity i.e. 4N vs 6N Hope that helps |
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@svampebob - here’s a summary of MY CURRENT cables with some alternates choices for neutral wires Interconnect Cables: - signal wires: 2 x 18 gauge bare UP-OCC copper, each wire inside it’s own Teflon tube
- Neutral - 1 x 16 gauge UP-OCC solid copper with Teflon insulation
- Alternate Neutral - you could double up on the neutral, but I opt for a single wire to save costs and it’s easier to build
Speaker Cables: - signal wires: 2 x 16 or 2 x 14 gauge bare UP-OCC copper, each wire inside it’s own Teflon tube - I have tried both and the 14 gauge did perform a just little better.
- But it might be speaker dependent - perhaps a smaller speaker would not require a 14 gauge wire
- Neutral - 1 x 10 gauge stranded mil spec with Teflon insulation
- Alternate Neurtal - you could use 1 x 12 or 2 x 12 gauge Neotech stranded UP-OCC copper with Teflon insulation, but again I would opt for a single neutral to keep costs down
- I no longer use the wooden beads as spacers
High Power cables for power amp or power conditioner: - signal wires: 2 x 14 gauge bare UP-OCC copper, each wire inside it’s own Teflon tube
- Neutral - 1 x 12 gauge Neotech UP-OCC stranded copper with Teflon insulation
- Alternate Neutral - 2 x 12 gauge Neotech UP-OCC stranded copper with Teflon insulation
Source Component Power Cables - LIVE wires: 2 x 18 or 2 x 16 gauge bare UP-OCC copper, each wire inside it’s own Teflon tube
- Neutral - 1 x 14 gauge Neotech UP-OCC stranded copper with Teflon insulation
- Alternate Neutral - 2 x 14 gauge Neotech UP-OCC stranded copper with Teflon insulation
I opt NOT to use the dual neutral wires in any of my cables because I consider the amount of improvements observed were not worth the additional expense. - But then, I have spent a lot of money during the development of these cables and so I prefer to save money where I can.
- HOWEVER: if you are after the absolute best performance then using a dual neutral will provide just that
RE: Teflon Tube: Teflon Tube (PTFE 10 Tubing .106"ID .130"OD Approx. 10 awg ) from Take Five Audio WRT using solid wire inside a Teflon tube for the neutral... - I have never tried bare wire inside Teflon tube for the NEUTRAL wire mainly because it could present challenges when winding the coil
WRT: Will the neutral corrode in the teflon tube? It will discolor a very small amount and then it will stop changing, but this is NOT enough to impact performance, - i.e. provided you use a small piece of heat shrink at each end to "seal" the tube.
- even without the heat shrink at each end of the tube it would take many many years to reach a point that MIGHT impact sound quality
Hope that answers your questions Regards - Steve |
@svampebob - I don't bother with spacers anymore because I figure the Teflon tubes plus the gentle twist I use in the two signal wires is as effective as the beads on the signal wire version.
I still use a 1/2" rod to wind the neutral wire on the speaker cables so the signal wires "take turns" at being in the center of the Helix coil, and don't forget the helix crosses the signal wires at very close to 90 degrees, so induction would be minimal.
It also make fabrication so much easier :-)
@sns - glad to hear you like the Helix PC's - I think you'll like the IC's as well :-)
Regards - Steve
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@tecknik - re:... what’s the sonic difference between mil spec silver plated and plain copper on neutral I’ve tried a couple of different wires for the neutral and the only wire that made a SIGNIFICANT improvement on the Saver plated Mil-Spec for the neutral is the UP-OCC copper with Teflon insulation - clarity improved resulting in more details
- imaging got larger
- dynamics got faster.
- bass became more "textured"
I am assuming by "Plain copper" you are referring to something like the quality of copper used in household wiring or even OFC copper? - using plain copper in place of the silver plated Mil-Spec would impact on those areas of improvement
I now use UP-OCC copper on - interconnects - 1 x 16 gauge solid UP-OCC with Teflon insulation (you can also try 2 x 16 gauge)
- power cables - 1 x 12 gauge stranded UP-OCC copper with Teflon insulation (you can try 2 x 12 gauge)
I still use 1 x 10 gauge Silver plated Mil-Spec on my speaker cables mainly because replacing them on my 10 ft cables would be more than I am willing to spend, since I would probably go with 2 x 12 gauge wires, since I have not found a vendor that sells 10 gauge UP-OCC I did try using bare UP-OCC wire inside a Teflon tube for both the signal and the neutral and the resulting sound was not to my liking - it sounded far too clinical for may tastes, so I reverted to the Mil-Spec for the neutral But - at this level of performance it all becomes a matter of - personal preferences
- your system components
- the other cables used
- and of course BUDGET
Hope that helps - Steve |
@tecknik With a 16 gauge neutral I would probably go for 4:1 ratio @svampebob - just realized I did not fully answer all of your questions...
Do we know for sure, that the quality of the neutral matters as long as its resistance is lower than the signal wire?
I have tried a few wires for the neutral and until I tried the UP-OCC copper, the Silver Plated stranded Mil-Spec always seemed to perform the best. But when I tried the UP-OCC copper for the neutral, the improvements were quite noticeable. I was also able to use a single wire as opposed to the double strand of mil-spec previously used. So I believe the UP-OCC wires is capable of significantly better electrical transmission when compared to a double strand of Silver Plated mil-spec having the same gauge. Using a double UP-OCC for the neutral may improve things even further, especially on high end components. Hope that helps - Steve |
I've used as small as 1 x 16 gauge for the speaker cable live on cables that handle 20 - 20k and found it adequate.
But using a double signal wire is better - so I would think 2 x 18 gauge UP-OCC for > 1600Hz should suffice.
Regards - Steve |
TARNISH UPDATE ! I have been asked a few times about tarnishing of bare silver and copper wire used in cables I have a piece of bare UP-OCC copper wire and a piece of bare Mundorf silver wire (+1% gold) that have been exposed to the room atmosphere for around 6 months now. - The Mundorf silver wire now has quite a dark colour gray
- And the UP-OCC copper is a dull red colour
Compared to.. - The silver plating on my plugs/RCA's/Banana plugs is still a bright silver
- the copper wiring inside the teflon tubes of my cables is still very bright
It would appear that placing the wire inside a Teflon tube and sealing the ends with heat shrink or hot glue does an excellent job of preventing tarnish build up. I cannot explain why the silver plated plugs are not tarnishing at the same rate as the Mundorf Silver wire - perhaps the quality of the silver used? Hope that helps Regards - steve |
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@svampebob - many thanks for the very positive feedback :-) But really, I consider myself just the scribe, because there have been many people from around the world and also from this very forum, that are responsible for getting the cables to this level of performance. The efforts from everyone have been amazing and the Helix cables would not be so effective without their contributions. Continuing feedback also provides insights that provides information about how the cables work across a very broad range of components. - e.g. we now know the cables do not perform their best with certain components that follow a symmetrical balanced design approach
This is a great example of what can be achieved via collaboration - so KUDO's to "The HELIX Team" !
I very much appreciate all of the feedback and the sharing of knowledge Regards - Steve |
@tecknik - RE: Regarding wire being wound counter clockwise doesn’t wire that has been soldered need to be broken in again ( thought I read that somewhere and it certainly sounds that way when I’ve done that in the past ) and re winding the wire would require break in again of at least 50 hrs. It depends how critical your system and ears are :-) - but generally, yes, additional burn in is beneficial
- even if I "reseat" (i.e. disconnect/reconnect) a broken-in cable, I have found that allowing 24 hours to settle before critical listening proved beneficial.
Also, I am very glad to hear the DC cables are providing sonic improvements Regards - Steve |
@Guanghuy - here are some - Bryston
- Simaudio Moon
- Gryphon
- Parasound
- Primare
- Acoustic Arts
The list is pretty long. The better way to approach this is to select an amp and then look for one of these keywords in the details - symmetrical
- differential
- balanced
Or you can simply post your selected amp here and I will get back to you with an answer, Also look at the brands in my list that are identified as "Some models" because it tends to be only their very TOTL models that use the symmetrical differential approach If anyone else is using the Helix with their solid state amps please post the brand/model here There is a growing trend in the use of Symmetrical balanced architecture, so this list maybe somewhat "fluid" Hope that helps Regards - Steve |
@wyan001 - I’ll leave any comments on the USB cable to @grannyring since it his design and I have NO experience with this particular cable
The XLR design on my web site is from another DIYer in Europe and is a single/single design.
I am not sure if anyone has tried a Double/Double version - anyone built one?
I am not sure if anyone has tried the "Air" aaption either - anyone built one?
If I were to try building an XLR cable I would definitely go for the "Air" Adapton but opt to build a Double/Single version as follows:
For each of the +ve and -ve conductors I would use
- 2 x 18 or 20 gauge bare wires with each wire in their own Teflon tube
- twist the two wires "gently" together (one tiwst every 3-4 inches)
- NOTE: do not bother twisting the the two assembled conductors together - simply insert inside the Helix Coil
- For the Helix Coil I would used a 1 x 16 gauge Solid Neotech Solid UP-OCC wire with Teflon insulation
- but 2 x 16 gauge Solid Neotech Solid UP-OCC wire for the neutral Helix Coil could be used for a Double/Double design
- you could also try 2 x 18 gauge solid UP-OCC wire with Airlok Insulation from VH Audoi for the Helix Coil - the Airlok insulaton has a slightly better Dielectric Constant value
PLEASE NOTE - for the Air adapton the internal diameter of the teflon tube used only needs to be approximately 20%-25% wider than the diameter of the wire, which assures adequate air gap between the wire and the sides of the tube
If you do NOT want to use the Air adaption simply use insulated wire for the +ve and -ve conductors - For this I would use 2 x 18 gauge solid UP-OCC copper with Airlok insulatoin from VH Audio.
Hope that helps - Steve
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@wyan001 - XLR or Single ended - that is the question.
Perhaps this is where synergy comes into play?
I know that some prefer the XLR verson, while others prefer the Single ended version. But they all state that the improvements of one over the other are miniscule.
Pehaps it is all down to the components in the system - they could have better circitry specific to one or the other.
It could depend on the quality of the XLR plugs that improves on the single ended cables
But - if there is lots of EMI/RFI in your "environment" then the XLR would be the way to go
The only real way to find out is to build both and try them.
Ufortunately I do not have XLR inputs on my amp so I am unable to compare them them.
Regards - Steve
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@norco74 - I didn't bother with any special handling or cleaning because I wanted to see how the bare copper fared without it.
There as an initial very slight loss of brightness of the copper, but in the last 6 months the colour has not changed at all - I assume because the oxygen inside the Tube has been used up.
I have a "sacrificial" piece of the same bare copper wire on the audio stand for comparison and that has tarnished much more
I also looked at the ground wire that connects to the electrical panel and it too is still fairly bright after 6 years, so I am pretty certain that sealing the tube will prevent further oxidation, because teflon does not let the oxygen in the air through to the copper.
If you do want to take extra care then Deoxit will do just fine.
Regards - Steve
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@ketchup RE:
What direction should the hot pairs be twisted and what direction should the grounds be twisted around them?
I agree with the answer @mbolek provided.
I would say that the positive/line conductor should be twisted in the opposite direction of the negative/return conductors.
Regards - Steve
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@mbolek RE:
I have tried many cables with this orientation and really never could tell a difference.
Not sure what you mean by "this orientation"
- are your referring to the rwo stranded live and neutral wires
- or the bare wire inside teflon tube ?
I recently listened to a Buchardt WiSA system. No cables...sounded awesome.
The days are numbered...
I agree - I have several Bluesound products. Their Pulse speakers employ a similar approach with imbedded amplifier and streaming hardware/software
- You can pair the epsakers into a L/R configuration for 2 channel operation
- no cables and they sound very good
It's only a matter of time before this becomes the accepted norm among speaker manufacturers
But oyu still need a good power cable 😀
- sometyhing Buchardt omit from showing in the photo's of their products
Cheers - Steve
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@ketchup - I was thinkging about the double shotgun approach...where
- you have a Live conductor
- consisting of two wires twisted together
- in a right hand twist
- one complete twist every inch
- you have a neutral conductor
- consisting of two wires twisted together
- in a left hand twist
- one complete twist every inch
- you then twist the neutral conductor and the live conductor together
- in a more relaxed right hand twist
- about one twist every 3"-4"
- and then insert that sub-assembly into the double helix coil
Hope that clarifies things
Regards - Steve
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@ketchup - for the coil - as the previous picture you had posted
Regards
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@ketchup - you should hear improved clarity and details, which also improves imaging.
- Play a live recording and listen for the little echoes and reverberations create within the venue
- You should also notice a more accurate and expansive image
Dynamics should also be faster and crisper
Regards, Steve
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@ketchup - I have tried a few different sized coils - one of them faily close to the signal wires and the sound was very good.
I think the coil being at almost 90 degrees to the signal wire provides te biggest benefit and not the distance from the signal wire
Regards
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