D.
I hear what you say, and as such there can be no argument.
If however everything (voices, instruments) sounds just right, and the applause does not (it's what I try to relate) then it doesn't sound like a VTA issue to me.
Unless, we are saying that applause is the 'new' guide-line in setting VTA, and not the voice/instrument.
It would mean we have to go from 'voicing' to 'applaucing'?
I do know that lesser resolving systems make applause sound more like water falling. But a good resolution makes it clear it is actually water and not 'white noise' also (if it is water :-) --- which is fine as far as my speakers go.
By the way, the percussion / cymbal work on the "Time Out" is pretty well captured, unfortunately not all of the piano.
Also there is a more recent HDCD of "Time Out" and I could argue that my rather old LP still sounds better, more palpable.
But is this LP still or again available, to your knowledge?
A. |
Dear Dertonarm: +++++ " When Raul mentioned in another thread that he does not care about this, I knew instantly that all his sonic descriptions are a hollow joke and without any content. " +++++
that is not exactly because any one ( " even me. " ) knows the importance on the subject but in my " day by day " I enjoy the music in a splendid way ( very near of that " perfection ". ) with out the little " stress " to put every single track right on set-up.
I only make this when I'm testing or making some comparison between audio items. Things has to be more simple to enjoy the music and if you are not capable to enjoy the music near that " perfection " I can understand that.
My very first target is to enjoy the music in the best way using my time to hear and enjoy that music letting to the ocasion that I need to do it put that near " perfection " set-up ( day by day ) to a " perfect " set-up on the tracks that I need it because you know that even in the same record " things " change due to our analog imperfect world.
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Dear Raul, absolutely no problem.
If you are used to and fine and fully satisfied driving every day with an old VW Beetle for pure enjoyment that is totally o.k.
No need to give comments on the technical aspects and behaviour in extreme driving situations about a Ferrari or Audi RS8 then - thats all I meant and I am happy to learn that you agree.
Cheers,
D. |
Dear Axel,
ambient and individual details in a fairly quite audience are about the utmost low level information engraved in a record. All the other sonic details with higher level can and will long be present. The most tiny details do only come up when the polished area of the stylus is as close to 100% aligned to the groove walls as possible.
Logic - isn't it.
Time Out is readly available currently and gets my vote for one of the finest recorded and most interesting Jazz albums ever.
Cheers,
D. |
Dear Dertonarm: I own a " Ferrari " too and I use it when I need it, just for fun you know!
The only " one road " around with no return is the worst that can happen to any person that you like it and even enjoy it is ok because is you who have to load in your " shoulders " and can't enjoy the short whole marvelous life that offer so many natural alternatives.
Daniel, seriously, you don't have the right " skills " ( mind/brain ) to try that I feel bad with your comments, don't lose your time I'm to " strong " for you, sorry but such is life.
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
D.
thanks for the "Time Out" vote. Good to know it's available still/again on vinyl --- any source you'd like to mention?
As to: >>>ambient and individual details in a fairly quite audience are about the utmost low level <<<
Oh, YES, yes!
But excuse me, applause is not: "... about the utmost low level" and that is what Halcro, and I consecutively where on about.
The APPLAUSE is, well... 'lacking' in comparison to the rest, and becomes somehow a little annoying...
It sounds like some patched in 'canned' piece of sound track, to call a spade a spade.
A. |
Dear Raul, you are so right - thats why you hardly ever write a full sentence about any of my remarks .......
What a p(i)e(a)ce of mind.....
Regarding your "Ferrari" - you should consider having a driver training soon.
Cheers,
D. |
Dear all, sorry for the side-kick with Raul again.
I apologize.
It was off-topic.
I will supply my suggestions ragrding some of the records I can recommend serving for this project on tuesday.
A sunny sunday to all,
D. |
OK, what about some POP 'side-kick(s)'
Peter Gabriel "SO" (detailed but may be a bit hot mastered?)
Paul Simon "Graceland" (explosive percussions, voices, the lot)
A. |
Dear Axel, I love "Graceland"!!
Haven't listened to "So" for more than 15 years.
Graceland does indeed have an excellent wide range of very different tracks and Ladysmith Black Mazambo's two pieces do add extra spice and most impressive a capella.
A landmark record.
Cheers,
D. |
Daniel:It does not sense to drive a Ferrari in a " road "/record where you have to stop every 30-60 seconds because the " road " have tiny imperfections where the " Ferrari can't go on ", it seems to me that is better ( for the day by day music enjoyement. ) to drive an all purpose VW that can go on and on and left the Ferrari only for especial " times/ocasions ".
A Ferrari demands not only a skill driver but an almost and especial " road/track ", well in audio world and especially on the quality of the records everything is almost a " disaster ": no perfect world here.
I always look for " perfection " where I know for sure that I can reach it or where I have the control but in a " road/record track " where you can't be sure in which right conditions was made ( cut. ) and where the " things " change almost every track , why to use a Ferrari that can't " move on "?
Anyway if " drive " ( because you almost can't advance. ) a day by day Ferrari makes you happy go a head, I already pass for that step in my audio learning curve and now I'm learning and enjoying new experiences: the world has to move on!!!!
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Raul, this is news for me, I thought your position was that you said we should always strive for the best e.g. with 0.01dB RIAA deviations? |
Henry, No sir you did not offend me, if that's what you hear from your pressing then that's what you hear.
As you know what Dertnarm is after is current and readily available pressings for anyone interested in participating.
My RCA pressings of Belafonte Live are not. The most recent being Classic Records 45 RPM single side box set from a couple of years back and a fairly decent early original pressing.
None of what you and Axel heard on your copies exist on mine.
The opening introduction that leads into Darlin'Cora the audience clapping is distinct and well rendered you immediately get a sense of the size of Cargenie.
The horn section puts a quick end to the clapping then the concert begins.
No where from the intro to the final of the concert do I hear anything remotely to which you described.
All and all the music is vibrant and entertaining
There are many things to be heard that the mics picked up during this concert, from the guy near the stage with some sort of bronchial problems ,subway to a transport outside going through his gears.
Its all there whether you want to hear it or not, it's live.
The current and still available double Lp re-issued by Classic Records is a fairly decent copy.
Compared to a very good pressing on a scale of 1 to 10, I would rate this currently available copy a 6.5 out of 10.Ten being the good pressing.
The intro is a bit washy,the horn section is a tad bright.
Belafontes vocals lack dynamics through out.
More so apparent on the track "John Henry" also there are portions where his voice is a tad harsh on this particular track.
Over all the musical flow of things are a little dull compared to a good pressing.
I borrowed this current issue yesterday to bring this information here.
For decades it's pretty much common knowledge this rare live RCA Victor recording is superb through and through.
However this is not what this thread is about. |
Yes Perrew but there ( RIAA ) I have the control on it through our phonolinepreamp design and in the other side you can have a near " perfect "cartrdge/tonearm/record set-up and enjoy more time the music that every 30-60 seconds stand up and fine tunning the set up " again and again " ( to " mantain " the " perfect " set up ).
I do that perfect set up when I need it: tests/comparisons on audio items, my main target is try to have the more time I have hearing and enjoying the music.
I already pass the " stage " where we are " fighting " with the hardware, I learn how o do it for I can enjoy the music like ever: this is part of us each audio learning curve, there are people that are where I'm and there are other people that are down stairs.
The audio and especially the each one targets are unique to each one person, each one of us have/has different priorities and different music/sound reproduction perception in a global target: music/sound reproduction in audio home systems, and due to those different priorities exist different quality performance levels. There are no especial rules here, only what we want and how we want it.
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Agree with Dave Brubeck Quartet "Time Out" Classic Records
I think Art Blakey and the Jazz Messengers deserve a mention "Moanin" mono Classic Records.
We need a bit more Rock... |
While I think that discussion of music, as opposed to equipment is a refreshing and extremely worthwhile endeavor, I confess to being a bit perplexed by what the ultimate goal of this proposal might be. I don't really get it.
This is not meant to in any way offend, but I find it telling that in more than sixty posts, there has not been one mention of how all of the expressed opinions about this recording's or that recording's merits (or lack thereof), mentions of dynamics, brightness, obvious (or not so obvious) sense of space, etc., relate to the sound of real instruments played live.
The idea of a common listening bias was proposed a long time ago by pioneering audiophiles like JG Holt and Harry Pearson. And the most useful common bias has to be the sound of real, unmplified instruments in a real space. IMO this is not up for debate. What is the point of mentioning that Eric Clapton's "Unplugged" conveys more ambient information than The Weaver's Carnegie Hall, when "Unplugged", while it sounds very immediate and spacious, also sounds very tipped up in the highs, with way too much leading edge to the sound of the guitars? The Weaver's recording converys a far more realistic, and natural sound; compared to the sound of acoustic instruments, voices, and audience sounds, as heard live. What's the point of mentioning that a horn section sounds a tad bright, without answering the question: "compared to what?" Maybe it is, but have you ever experienced a great big band live? The brass section of a great orchestra? It can sound incredibly "bright".
I think the basic premise of this discussion is great, but I would love to see much more emphasis on how all of this relates to the real sound of live instruments and voices. |
Dear Stiltskin,
Maybe Axel and I both have poor modern re-issues of the Belafonte, but we are both hearing the same things in the 'applause' department and I think a lot of it is due to the fact that this recording is a compilation of at least 2 (and probably more) concerts over several evenings.
As a result, there is much 'cut and paste' of individual tracks and thus the applause is faded out before the 'paste' of a 'new' track. This lack of continuity is disturbing to say the least and to me, destroys the 'live event' experience.
In fact, on careful listening, I believe the voice and instruments could be identically recorded in the studio?.....please don't crucify me for this sacrilege?
Axel, couldn't agree more on Dave Brubeck's Time Out. I have both the mono and stereo versions and prefer the stereo.
Want some rock??.....Roxy Music 'Avalon' and Brian Ferry 'Boys and Girls'. Great soundstage, balance, frequency extensions AND music!
Try Massive Attack's 'Protection' if you want to test the accuracy of your systems bass (and subwoofers). It is easy to have them, turned up too much and overpower the balance of the vocals.
Once again Axel, I agree with Paul Simon's 'Graceland' but for even better sound integrity, listen to his 'Hearts and Bones' and 'One Trick Pony' and 'Still Crazy after All these Years' and 'There Goes Rhymin Simon'.
This man knows his recording engineers!
Also Moby '18', Nelly Furtado 'Loose', 'Diary of Alecia Keys' and then the Joan Armatrading's 'Me Myself I', 'To the Limit', 'Show Some Emotion'.
And the Beatles 'Abbey Road'....easily the best recorded of their seminal albums.
But I eagerly await Daniel's list?
Regards
Henry |
Dear All, as the question about the "ultimate goal" just came up again:
- It is not about ultimate sonic quality of a pressing. We do need a careful selected group of records which shall serve as a "common ground" to link and desvribe all sonic impressions each one has in his system set-up or with inidvidual components.
While I am perfectly aware that usually the vintage first pressing are the better sounding, we must restrict ourselves to what is CURRENTLY AVAILABLE FOR EVERYONE.
So - no 1s/1s Reiner PInes of Rome (just as an example...), but instead the "normal" below $50 Classic Records Reissue with33 1/3 and on one record only.......
EVERYONE must have access to all these records by mail-order (internet) or standard audio retail shop.
This is about the chance to give each and everyone the very same tool at hand and thus creating one FIXED POINT to set the "lever".
While the discussion about sonic differences in certain records is fruitful and important to extract the essence, in the very end we are forced by reality to restrict the "common ground LP package" to what we can buy today NEW.
Cheers,
D. |
Hi D. and Frogman,
I thing your reply did not fully cover what Frogman was on about. But let's see if he concurs with my notion.
A. |
|
Dear Axel, dear Frogman, I will illustrate in the list of my "picks" the point of the unamplified instruments in live space.
Stay tuned - I will be back tuesday night with my list and a few words about each record on it.
Cheers,
D. |
I thought the subject of this thread was a good one when I first saw it. Now after having contributed once and read through twice, I think it will end up raising more questions than answering.
First of all, there was discussion of whether or not certain albums were sonically up to snuff. Then the discussion digressed into a pissing match over set-up. The third, an possibly the most fatal flaw in all this, is being able to communicate that which you hear such that the majority of people reading the "review" will comprehend what the reviewer is talking about. One doesn't need to read many audiophile periodicals to understand that even the "professionals" struggle to get this one right.
I'm not here to throw a wet blanket on the party, but even after certain "reference" recordings are chosen, a lot of other "standards" have to be established and agreed to for this exercise to have any analytical value.
Or we can just continue on tilting windmills . . .
Eric |
A suggestion from my side.
I have picked a few Jazz records first.
Don't expect any surprises here.
Each of these records has stand the test of time and each and everyone has outstanding sonic virtues AND does provide a very natural sonic envelope AND is very enjoyable to listen to for the music alone.
Furthermore each and every of these discs can serve in several different aspects as a benchmark disc.
I have done some research and right now - 07/07/2009 - each and every of these records is available as a reissue through the usual audiophile sources.
This is not a complete list.
However every of this records is a "test" record of the very highest caliber - even if it might not apparent at first glance.
- each record is avaialble NEW now
- through mailorder for everyone
- each record is US$50 or less
- most records do have a VERY similar groove angle - VERY IMPORTANT !!!!
I have added a few very short notes to each record.
In no particular order:
Jazz:
- Dave Brubeck: "Time Out" CS-8192 Classic Records
***** direct, airy, superb livelike-presence, stunning high-frequency percussion details, superb timeless music masterpiece, a groundbreaking record *****
- Miles Davis: "Kind of Blue" CS-8163 Classic Records
***** outstanding low level detail, extremely wide range of tone colors, perfect - yet hard to reproduce soundstaging of the group members, sense of rythmic flow and fantastic interaction between the musicans- the two saxophones in their very different styles in particular. *****
- Coleman Hawkins: "Today and now" AIPJ-34
***** direct, fast, live-like presence, true "physical weight" of each and every instrument, stunning dynamics and one of my all time favorites if it comes to demonstrate speed, pace, groove and energy. *****
- Oscar Peterson: "We get requests" V6-8606 Speakers Corner
***** perfect soundstage, very precise, natural and beautiful captured piano without any of the usual high-lightening, stunning, outstanding natural recorded acoustic bass which is VERY hard to reproduce in the correct balance towards the percussion set and the piano, superb tiny low level detail (Ray Brown's humming while he really goes into it) while dominant bass line often overwhelming everything on lesser systems. Fantastic album you will play over and over again because of the superb tracks and ease of the pieces. Timeless******
- Stan Getz / Jao Gilberto V6-8545 Speakers Corner Reissue
****** w/ Astrud Gilberto. No need to add any comments - do I ? *****
I would like to add either Oliver Nelsons "Blues and the abstract truth", Eric Dolphy's "Out to lunch" and most important Earl Hines "Once upon a time" - I am still checking if any of these 3 records is due to be re-released on vinyl soon.
All these records do come from times past.
All are "classics".
All are cut today with identical cutting angles - so we do not have to mess around with different VTA for each record.
All are recorded with very natural acoustical envelope.
All are recorded with fairly little miking and without amplified instruments.
I can supply much more detailed listening remarks on each of these records.
Aside from this topic here - I strongly recommend to get any of these 5 records in case you haven't done so.
They are timeless and great records of the last and this century.
We won't see any better coming our way in our life-time.
Classical to be added tomorrow.
Some Rock/Pop towards the weekend.
Please continue to supply some of your thoughts.
Please keep in mind that the records must be readily available, US$50 or less and - if possible - reissues from one of the major sources Classic Records, Speakers Corner or Acoustic Sounds.
This will help to keep the VTA almost identical for all these records and will MUCH improve the common ground aspect regarding the set-up of the front-end. |
|
I am also with Eric and Headsnappin.
What is bright, what is right timber/tone, what is warm, overly warm. You don't know as is differs from person to person depending upon their live music listening experiences. And biases. |
So let's not discuss it at all? |
Dear Tubetan, Headsnappin, Nilthepill ...... it doesn't matter and we do not need anyone telling us the sound on any specific record is this, that and those.
All this is to have the one single common piece in all systems - the record on the platter.
It is all about RELATIVE comparism and the option to discuss sonic differences with at least one common ground in the discussion.
It will always differ - regarding size of soundstage, low level detail, timbre, coloration, saturation of tone color, dynamics, impact and a few dozen other asoects.
This is not the point.
One some systems there will be "more" on some systems there will be "less".
In any case, you will know the difference is NOT the software - ergo:......
What do you want? Someone telling you that this and that is there on a particular record? This was done in legions in the 1980ies and 1990ies by several writers of the absolute sound and others. Did it help you at all?
Those descriptions were usually done with vintage pressings certainly not available to all.
It seems to me that it is almost impossible to explain to some people the intend behind this and the idea of a common - yet not fixed in all parameters - ground building on the software used to made a sonic review or description.
Its the same as if agreeing on a common language to be used to communicate.
My god........
Well then, ....... it seems again,- as always in audiophile community: no common ground possible - no matter how tiny.
It seems too, that many prefer to talk into and out of the blue with no real connection to anyone else - that way we all can enjoy the illusion that what we have set-up at home is great, outstanding, the best, whatever.
Still better to link sound or the idea of sound to components listed in virtual space............... that way the "acid test" (see Halcro what I mean....- now isn't that a great joke in itself !) will never happen and no one has to face it - even if only by himself.
Great.
Yes Halcro, - it seems indeed that most people do prefer to keep all things in the nebula. Might well be that some do fear the moments when it becomes apparent that what they hear on their system is not what other tell about that specific record. Even if only they themself will ever realize.
Apparently, - the longing for light isn't the same in all people.
Can't even agree on a language to be used...... |
Dertonarm, I said earlier some people might be frightened by what they hear from there system, but that is always the case with change. I think this common ground is great, if you dont want to participate, stay out, but I think it would be extremely interesting to hear what other people hear(of course people can lie) when they listen to a record on there system, so I can compare how I experience it. Maybe I can gain some knowledge and if not I at least get to know a couple of new records.
Dertonarm please keep the other suggestions coming. I managed to find the first three on SACD as well. |
Dear Perrew, you were/are right - I agree.
I will continue with my suggestions and if we can establish at least a group of interested A'goners (guess you, Halcro, Siltskin, Axelwahl, Syntax and a few others including myself... and maybe several more not yet posting in this thread but watching) are interested and do see the full possibilities of this common ground.
Great if most of the recording are available tooon either CD or SACD .
Most will be available in the upcoming years as HD-download with much higher data than on CD or SACD.
Thats why I am concentrating on timeless "classics", as they will be around forever - as time has already proofed the past 50 years.
My Classic suggestions to be added on saturday and Rock/Pop Sunday.
Please feel invited to add suggestions of your own for any of the categories.
Thank you,
D. |
For the Rock category id like to add Tool - Undertow |
How! Perrew
Tool ------- oh yeah!?
Cool, but then by any chance to make this THE one on HDCD also: "LATERALUS"
Wanna blow my head off, why not :-)
Axel |
One more for the road, -- POP ~ cross-over.
Jesse Cook: "Tempest" on NARADA EQUINOX ND 63035
If this be available on LP, it'd be a knock-out album. Fast, up tempo flamenco guitar with punchy percussion, mostly instrumental (just as well :-).
This CD is used by some reviewer(s), which drew my attention to it. A CD I actually manage to listen to from beginning to end.
A. |
I guess I've completely misread the whole intent of the OP. After reading Dertonarm's response to my last post three times, I still don't know what he/she is saying. If this is just going to be one person saying "On side 2, four bars into the 2nd movement there is a buzz three chairs down in the violin section." and then someone else chiming in "You know nothing about system set-up so your hearing is invalid" or "Any fool could tell that's not a buzz in the violin section; it's the second chair French Horn clearing a spit valve." then I guess I wouldn't be interested in participating.
Thank you all for suffering a Philistine in your midst. I'll be on my way now . . . |
Tubetan :-)
I don't think you are a Philistine but 'projecting forward', our most valued Western thinking 'planning' genes kicking in.
Why not try to 'go with the flow' and see what materializes.
I guess there will be some to come of what you mention --- but there may be something useful also, I'm sure.
Just hang loose and try to avoid getting into some 'self fulfilling prophesy'. And you might find that bit of useful information you didn't even know to ask?
Greetings,
Axel
|
Well Tubetan, you completely mistook the point.
Its all about a "common language" - a "common ground".
Its not at all about bugging the other with this or that detail in sonic reproduction which might be there or not.
However - I am not on a mission and would be happy if at least a few A'goners do find useful idea in this.
Lyndon B. Johnson once said: "better have them inside the tent peeing out, then outside the tent peeing in".
I do not concur.
If you can't see any point for you - fine with me. |
Nirvana - Unplugged , this is a record that will remain.
Axel although the Lateralus is available on HDCD I still like the Undertow album, slightly unpolished and raw, not the sound though, and the first four songs are amazing! |
I forgot Alice In Chains - Unplugged, almost better than Nirvana - Unplugged |
As for Rock/Pop - most of my favorites are currently NOT available new.
One strong vote for Johnny Cash American Recording Vol. 1 (I know - its rather Country/Western....) and another for Neil Diamond: Home before Dark.
Both do have - while fairly intimate and quite records - extraordinary virtues and at least the first is already a "classic". |
Both Nirvana - Unplugged and Tool - Undertow are available on LP, its no Country though:-) |
D. >> "better have them inside the tent peeing out...
LBJ actually said 'pissing'. I though that was cool... :-)
A. |
It is this kind of double talk that is off putting. On one had you say 'fine with me" and on the other hand come with a smart alec comment 'pissing' quote.
The quote in itself is cool though and something to remember and practice.
May be it worth watching what follows, as Alex says.
With that said, I did not see any electronic music selection. I recommend a material with acoustic instruments in it so as form good ref ( as not many folks go to electronic music live concert).
I recommend:
Talkie Walkie by AIR
and if you really want one of the coolest sounding musical deep bass ( dub) with lot of slamming and chirping mids and high, I recommend
Steingarten by Pole (from your neck of the woods, D.)
Carry on! |
Dertonearm,
I think it may have been more appropriate to quote a more recent President . . .
"It depends on what the meaning of the words 'is' is." Bill Clinton
I'll be interested to see how this turns out, but since I don't get what "it" is you're really trying to accomplish, I'll just stand outside your tent and pee . . r in. :-)
Eric |
Dear friends: Nice to read that almost all of you are getting fun here.
I hope that what I want to share with all of you could help in anyway:
in the last 3-4 years I'm using 5-6 different LP's with one two tracks in each one to set up by ear my cartridges and to know how is the peformance an set-up in other audio systems ( several and different ones. ), till today these LP's and " process " are working fine for me.
Basically what I try to do is to be " sure " that the VTA and Azymuth are in good shape. I will talk on just three different recordings ( that anyone can buy if not already have it in both formats: LP/CD. ) all 180grs and recorded around the same years, what I report is what I hear with a volume around 83-84db SPL at seat position with 90-92db on peaks:
The first recording ( VTA ) is Janis Ian Breaking Silence ( Analogue Productions APP-027. 33rpm. ), here I use the side two first ( walking on sacred ground ) and second track ( this train still runs ):
First track: At the very first 4seg. You can hear in the right side a cymbal that was rubbing with the stick, here you can be sure that your wiring is correct channel to channel. Then ( and this is critical ) at 1.45 minutes you will hear three shots in a small drum ( I dont know its name. ) then something that sing Janis ( three seconds. ) and again other three drum shots, all these 6 shots and especially the three last ones are tight and dry and the drum sound is alive and a little on the bright side ( the right word is not bright but I dont know any other ): if you hear these drum shots a little soft or warm then you have to change the VTA in positive angle. All over this track the cymbal sound in the right ( a little in up side. ) channel is not only clear and transparent but well defined, you have to distinguish each stick stroke on the cymbal. The Janis voice always dead at the center.
Second track: this track is very dynamic in the drum/percussion work and you have to distinguish the differences in strength that the drummer put when hit the different drums.
The track start with drums and acoustic guitar and after 20 seconds and in the left side after ( immediately/along ) a drum stroke you have to hear a tiny cymbal/percussion sound ( so tiny but clear. ). Then at the 3.20 minutes you will hear the part with the strongest drum strokes ( at least ten of them. ), the first 4 are big, thick, no overhang, almost organic and tight. The percussions all over the track are clear, transparent and tactile.
The second recording ( Azymuth ) is a double album by Eagles hell freezes over ( Geffen SVLP 050 . 33rpm. )here I use the side two second track ( hotel california. ).
This track start with some acoustic guitar melody and at the 28 seg you will hear the first big stroke in a big drum ( it is not really a drum but I dont know the word for this instrument. ), the sound will comes slightly at the right of the center stage, the sound has to be big and deep with no overhang or bass resonance, it has to be a little on the warm side thick not strictly tight or dry but not soft either ( if your system has good low bass you will love this track. ). After 8 seg of that first drum big sound you will listening a percussion ( low level ) in the right side and after additional 6-7seg. you will hear a second ( lower level. ) percussion instrument in the left side.
If your system has the resolution and the VTA and Azymuth are near perfect then you will hear what I say. If you cant hear the left side percussion then you have to try little azimuth changes till you can hear it, btw when you have to change the cartridge azymuth and after that you can hear this left side percussion you will note too that that big drum sound suffer an improvement in its quality reproduction.
Sometimes even if you try the azymuth changes you cant hear this left side percussion sound and that can be for multiple problems : maybe the SPL ( volume ) is not at the right level, maybe the tweeters are not well aligned with your ears, maybe in that tonearm/cartridge combination the cartridge left side output level on that frequency range is to low or smeared, maybe your phono stage has not the right resolution or the cartridge load is not the adequate and I can go on and on in the subject.
The third recording ( and when the VTA and azymuth are near perfect . ) is to confirm what we do before.
This album is the Patricia Barber Café Blue ( Premonition Records 737. 33rpm. ), here I use side one second track ( nardis, yes the one by Miles D. ).
Start with the Patricia voice where in the very first 8seg. you will hear clearly a complete and deep Patricia breathing slightly at the right of the center stage.
The very first percussion sound ( first sound is voice and piano. ) you will hear ( very tiny. ) a cymbal at 2.32 minute.
The track is very dynamic through piano, drums and percussions/cymbals. Well, at 4.45 minute you will hear a cymbal at the left side where you have to distinguish the stick stroke/shot on the cymbal very clear not only the harmonics and in the same left side with the same cymbal at 5.22 through 5.36 minute you have to distinguish how that cymbal is touched by the stick in the inner part of the cymbal where you can hear very clear/brilliant the stick stroke several times in that brief time.
Then at 5.47 minute and coming slightly at the left side of the center stage you will hear 5 ( five ) shots/strokes by the big drum ( where the drummer use his right foot. ) that are tight, deep, a little warm, fast, clear, with real presence and with no overhang.
This track ( all the recording. ) is overprocessed but if your system is spot-on then the dynamic of the recording is a beautiful fireworks time. The recording comes a little lower in volume you will need to change your volume level by 5db.
Of course that there are other several " things " to " see " on all those recordings but these highlights are IMHO good enough to start.
Almost always I make this three recording exercise twice. I use other 3-4 recordings for fine tunning but this will be for other better time.
I have to say that due to my problems in the English language is really hard to explain in precise way those experiences step by step but I hope it can be usefull for you.
Maybe for many of you these recordings does not like you ( because it si not the kind of music that you really like. ) but this is not important, the important subject is what you hear or what you can't.
Of course that depending of each one system there will be different flavors on what you hear but you cant hear nothing totally different of what I told here.
As better is your system set-up as better and nearest you will be on what I post here.
Is it perfect this experience?, certainly not. Is it the Bible ? Again certainly not. It is only a tool with I have a lot of experience in different audio systems and like I say at the begin: always works.
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Dear Raul:
I think you have just earned a round of applause, thank you!
Axel |
Raul:
one question I have to add:
What about the pretty sibilant opening of the 1st track on side two "Tequila sunrise"?
It is even to some degree apparent on the CD.
Axel |
Dear All, what Raul explained with his elaborating post is exactly what I meant.
Very good Raul !
It is about being able to describe certain sonic details as well as complete impressions on a common ground - a given (or several...) record with known pressing and VTA.
Sorry Eric, - I still don't see why my intentions which I explained over and over again still seem to be so mysterious?
If we have a known pressing of a readily available record and the known VTA, then we have for once a chance to run identical software - i.e. - all differences heard or unheard in various systems running with this or that particular record out of a selection of agreed upon LPs are differences in set-up (as Raul nicely explained with VTA settings altering balance and detail response) and abilities of the systems.
We can exchange our opinions and experiences on a common ground.
Thats it.
What I tried to explain in mere theory Raul did - apparently with better success - by a detailed example.
Raul - thank you!
Cheers,
D. |
Dear friends: This Dertonarm " common ground " subject is really usefull not only for your own system set-up and for other system comparison ( including our each audio system items. ) but as heard again and again the " common ground " recordings we will learn more and more of those recordings till the time that when we hear the very first track on a different system that the one of us we know ( overall ) what is " happening " in that system. Of course that that " common ground " give us unique and universal audio language with no single frontier.
Using a " common ground " approach give us a constant parameter where we are really experienced and where the experiences can be repeat each time we try it. We have to hear those recordings ones and again many times in our system and in other systems before we obtain the faculty to discern in precise way what we are hearing through those recordings.
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Hi: I forgot. the " common ground " recordings/tracks IMHO has to be that when these tracks are on target any other recording ( same VTA ) are at its best always.
Those reference tracks only could be taking like references when ( like Dertonarm says. )the tonearm/cartridge geometry is almost " perfect " on set-up where an out of target " parameter " can/could be hear/heard it.
Other important factor is that those precise details that we choose on each track must be of several kind: a hard to hear( distinguish. ) ones, natural sounding ones, precise and defined and with different " colors " trying to cope both frequency extremes.
There are other factors that could help but I think that those that I posted are good to start.
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
So, is someone going to actually pull together a demo CD of the tracks and make it available?
(ha, ha ... that was supposed to be a joke for all you analogue nuts)
Bob |
Great report Raul! Thank you very much. |
