Maybe it is possible to establish a widely accepted common ground in terms of listening bias by choosing and agreeing on 10-30 LPs all readily available new to all audiophiles for decent price. If all listening tests and personal comments regarding the sound of components and systems in the various threads and posts would refer to any of these LPs mainly, everyones comments and experiences would much easier be understood by their fellow Audiogoners.
Suppose 20 audiophiles have 50 identical records. Now what?
I love the passion and idealism behind the initial question posed at the start of this thread but ultimately, it is a futile exercise.
I'll offer myself as a free personal slave for the rest of my life! if someone can find just two absolutely identical systems out there , of which we will need so we can lay even the most basic foundation to make discussion meaningful. I'll offer the same even if two systems are only 80 percent identical!
Instead what i would suggest is for a small group with 20-50 identical records travel to each others systems to hear those same records in different systems then have some dialog. This can be a sonic reference point to bring back to our own systems to gauge the sound of our own systems. But all you would know is if you prefer the sound of those records more so in your own system then in theirs.
Words are feeble tools to convey degrees of fine musical nuances and subtexts, then add to that unfamiliar systems and you multiply the challenge. Even in my own system i am still progressively trying to know what one component sounds like apart from the others ! , nevermind what is going in on in someone elses system.
The goal of the initial thread posting was to provide a controlled environment to make discussion meaningful and to aid in our progress which is fine but there are many more contingencies to take into account and ultimately having a identical record set is insufficient to achieve the desired goal. No?
I for one am new to vinyl and don't really have much to compare to. I really enjoy this thread and it has turned me on to some new music that I otherwise would not have thought about. I can't wait for the list so we can start comparing thoughts and notes. Get it going, I can't wait to start ordering!!!!!
Depth of Bass: Zoon - Fields of the Nephilim (LP, Begger's Banquet BEGA172) (1st track, side 3, bass goes sub-sonic alternate: Saint-Saens Organ Symphony, w/Louis Fremeaux cond., EMI
Dynamic Range/trackability: Paranoid, Black Sabbath on white label German Vertigo. alternate: Verdi Requiem, RCA Soria box. track: Dies Irae
Either LP puts most stereos on their knees in a few seconds.
Most LPs by the Atrium Musicae de Madrid on Harmonia Mundi are good for staging and detail.
Ability of a system to resolve detail within high energy vocals: Village Music of Bulgaria, Nonsuch. Field recording of exceptional merit. If your system has problems this recording will sound like hell.
Dear Peterayer, your suggestion is worth musing about. I will have some spare time over the christmas holidays and will prepare a list of my favorite records used for exploring the sonic abilities of components. Cheers, D.
Dertonarm, I, for one, appreciate your efforts in this thread and was hoping that it would lead to some kind of list that we could use to discuss sonics and systems. However, the thread died about a year and a half ago. Why not tally the results, make a list and use it as originally intended? Call it Dertonarm's List or something.
Those members who are not interested, need not be involved. The Audiogon Analog forum could be the host location for discussion. Perhaps a list of 25 or so currently available LPs is sufficient, or ten LPs in each of three or four genres.
Viridian, while I do not share your opinion nor would say that you understood my proposal correctly (neither in intend nor content), I agree - with the experience of the past year here on Audiogon... - that there is hardly any intention to agree no matter how obvious a given thing/concept/consequence may be. In reverse it rather seems that the all present chance and option to deny out of personal preferences and intentions is an omnipresent force in audiophile online discussions. A force few can resist to use. Somehow haunted by the ghost of Mephistofeles who claimed and named himself the "spirit of negation".
It is - apparently - very difficult to establish any kind of "reference standard" (this is not meant to be taken in as "quality" here!) in a subject which is so highly individual and burden with taste, preference and emotion. Some may even fear such a benchmark being established for whatever reason. I thought it would be a good one, following the paths Harry Pearson laid out with his list of preferred test records in "the absolu!e sound" almost 3 decades ago. To have some kind of common ground to return to and to compare things could bring a much better understanding of each other's sonic picture and set-up while communicating about the very sonics in virtual cyberspace. What I missed however was a constructive counter-proposal. Especially from the most opposing "critics". But then constructiveness seems a rare bird anyway these days in "audiophile communication". Often it is not the message which provokes opposition, but the mere personality of the messenger...;-) ..... I for one still think we missed just another chance to fortify and clarify a part of our communication regarding our passion.
The importance on Dertonarm idea ( not to often I coincide with D. ) is that we can comunicate on audiophile terms using the same " language " because it is the best path that you, Viridian , me or any one else could know what each one of us are " hearing " and what we really want to comunicate and that this " comunication " be fully in understand for everyone. With out that common listening bias we are surrounded by uncertainty on what each one of us is talking about.
Anyway, Dertonarm attemp was a good one that has not success because IMHO the people don't understand very well his meaning and the importance for all of us of that meaning.
Thanks Viridian. I found your fourth post and get your point. You don't think it is a good idea to create a list of recordings that we could use as a common basis for discussion. However, to Dertonarm you wrote: "And a really bad try at that." I thought he gave it a good try even if the idea is flawed for the reasons you stated. The thread did generate some good recommendations.
I do like the idea of sharing recommendations of good recordings with other members of the forum.
No certainly not easy - 10 audiophiles = 11 opinions. Guess we have to abandon the idea of establishing any common ground regarding a set/list of "evaluation records" for high-end audio purpose. But then that idea is failing in almost all areas of social/public life today. How could I dare hoping for any better here....(:^) .... Alas - it was a try. Cheers, D.
Dear friends: I just have a very good experience that confirm the necessity to have this " common ground " by ourself.
Making a small change in our tonearm design I test the " old " prototype against the " new " with that small change on it. As always I made it with my " common ground " recordings/tracks, the change was so " tiny " that after the Janis Ian recordings everything the same ( at least I can't detect differences in the performance. ) but when I run the Eagles one at the very first stroke on the percussion the " difference " comes alive, I run the Patricia Barber where there were almost no diffrence.
I'm talking here of very tiny changes that fortunately for me I can dettect through that " common ground " recordings. It is not only to have a high resolution audio system with a near perfect set up but to have the software and to know what looking for.
Is this list limited to common album pressings, or are Reference Recordings or Acoustic Sound and other "premiere" labels also to be included? Same question for 45RPM vs 33RPM?
I ask because some of my premiere/specialty recording disks are just absolutely stellar and completely blow away my more common records. Two particularly come to mind:
88 Basie Street Ray Brown Trio - Soular Energy
As for the more common albums I would recommend:
many by Cat Stevens Michael Hedges - Aerial Boundaries Friday Night in San Francisco (McLaughlin, DeMeola, DeLucia)
Oh yes, the one's been kicked about in the "Killing sibilance..." thread, http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1245595534 and is well distributed. Doug's using it as some sort of test LP. The Eagles' "Hell freezes over" ('Tequila Sunrise', 1st Track on side 2) was brought on by Raul he's using it as a test LP (but the 2nd track on side 2, 'Hotel California'), it's their 2nd last album and also available. A.
Thanks D. You may want to figure if Tequila Sunrise will be a test case (or not), -- as well as the much talked about last track from side 2 of "so long so wrong" AK, even the 2nd (middle track) seems a challenge.
B U T if we can determine that those two example are due to the vinyl it self, we also have learned something. A.
Hi Axel, sibilance distortion is a very common phenomenon in a lot of set-ups AND on a lot of records. What we need, are records which can be tracked WITHOUT sibilance distortion, but only if aligned perfectly. Usually - if not recording-inherent - sibilance distortion are the result of miss-alignment of either (or most likely both...) cartridge or tonearm. And yes - don't have to be Tequila Sunrise... - we do need in specific one or two records which can provide just this particular "test bench". I am still working on the list of classical picks, but will provide them soon - too much "real world" work right now...
Hi: I forgot. the " common ground " recordings/tracks IMHO has to be that when these tracks are on target any other recording ( same VTA ) are at its best always.
Those reference tracks only could be taking like references when ( like Dertonarm says. )the tonearm/cartridge geometry is almost " perfect " on set-up where an out of target " parameter " can/could be hear/heard it. Other important factor is that those precise details that we choose on each track must be of several kind: a hard to hear( distinguish. ) ones, natural sounding ones, precise and defined and with different " colors " trying to cope both frequency extremes.
There are other factors that could help but I think that those that I posted are good to start.
Dear friends: This Dertonarm " common ground " subject is really usefull not only for your own system set-up and for other system comparison ( including our each audio system items. ) but as heard again and again the " common ground " recordings we will learn more and more of those recordings till the time that when we hear the very first track on a different system that the one of us we know ( overall ) what is " happening " in that system. Of course that that " common ground " give us unique and universal audio language with no single frontier.
Using a " common ground " approach give us a constant parameter where we are really experienced and where the experiences can be repeat each time we try it. We have to hear those recordings ones and again many times in our system and in other systems before we obtain the faculty to discern in precise way what we are hearing through those recordings.
Dear All, what Raul explained with his elaborating post is exactly what I meant. Very good Raul ! It is about being able to describe certain sonic details as well as complete impressions on a common ground - a given (or several...) record with known pressing and VTA.
Sorry Eric, - I still don't see why my intentions which I explained over and over again still seem to be so mysterious?
If we have a known pressing of a readily available record and the known VTA, then we have for once a chance to run identical software - i.e. - all differences heard or unheard in various systems running with this or that particular record out of a selection of agreed upon LPs are differences in set-up (as Raul nicely explained with VTA settings altering balance and detail response) and abilities of the systems.
We can exchange our opinions and experiences on a common ground. Thats it.
What I tried to explain in mere theory Raul did - apparently with better success - by a detailed example. Raul - thank you! Cheers, D.
Dear friends: Nice to read that almost all of you are getting fun here.
I hope that what I want to share with all of you could help in anyway:
in the last 3-4 years I'm using 5-6 different LP's with one two tracks in each one to set up by ear my cartridges and to know how is the peformance an set-up in other audio systems ( several and different ones. ), till today these LP's and " process " are working fine for me.
Basically what I try to do is to be " sure " that the VTA and Azymuth are in good shape. I will talk on just three different recordings ( that anyone can buy if not already have it in both formats: LP/CD. ) all 180grs and recorded around the same years, what I report is what I hear with a volume around 83-84db SPL at seat position with 90-92db on peaks:
The first recording ( VTA ) is Janis Ian “ Breaking Silence “ ( Analogue Productions APP-027. 33rpm. ), here I use the side two first ( walking on sacred ground ) and second track ( this train still runs ):
First track: At the very first 4seg. You can hear in the right side a cymbal that was “ rubbing “ with the stick, here you can be sure that your wiring is correct channel to channel. Then ( and this is critical ) at 1.45 minutes you will hear three shots in a small drum ( I don’t know its name. ) then something that sing Janis ( three seconds. ) and again other three drum shots, all these 6 shots and especially the three last ones are tight and dry and the drum sound is “ alive “ and a little on the “ bright “ side ( the right word is not bright but I don’t know any other ): if you hear these drum shots a little soft or warm then you have to change the VTA in positive angle. All over this track the cymbal sound in the right ( a little in up side. ) channel is not only clear and transparent but well defined, you have to distinguish each stick stroke on the cymbal. The Janis voice always dead at the center.
Second track: this track is very dynamic in the drum/percussion work and you have to distinguish the differences in strength that the drummer put when hit the different drums. The track start with drums and acoustic guitar and after 20 seconds and in the left side after ( immediately/along ) a drum stroke you have to hear a tiny cymbal/percussion sound ( so tiny but clear. ). Then at the 3.20 minutes you will hear the part with the strongest drum strokes ( at least ten of them. ), the first 4 are big, thick, no overhang, almost organic and tight. The percussions all over the track are clear, transparent and tactile.
The second recording ( Azymuth ) is a double album by Eagles “ hell freezes over “ ( Geffen SVLP 050 . 33rpm. )here I use the side two second track ( hotel california. ).
This track start with some acoustic guitar melody and at the 28 seg you will hear the first big stroke in a big drum ( it is not really a drum but I don’t know the word for this instrument. ), the sound will comes slightly at the right of the center stage, the sound has to be big and deep with no overhang or bass resonance, it has to be a little on the warm side thick not strictly tight or dry but not soft either ( if your system has good low bass you will love this track. ). After 8 seg of that first “ drum “ big sound you will listening a percussion ( low level ) in the right side and after additional 6-7seg. you will hear a second ( lower level. ) percussion instrument in the left side.
If your system has the resolution and the VTA and Azymuth are near “ perfect “ then you will hear what I say. If you can’t hear the left side percussion then you have to try little azimuth changes till you can hear it, btw when you have to change the cartridge azymuth and after that you can hear this left side percussion you will note too that that big “ drum “ sound “ suffer “ an improvement in its quality reproduction.
Sometimes even if you try the azymuth changes you can’t hear this left side percussion sound and that can be for multiple “ problems “ : maybe the SPL ( volume ) is not at the right level, maybe the tweeters are not well aligned with your ears, maybe in that tonearm/cartridge combination the cartridge left side output level on that frequency range is to low or smeared, maybe your phono stage has not the right resolution or the cartridge load is not the adequate and I can go on and on in the subject.
The third recording ( and when the VTA and azymuth are near “ perfect “. ) is to confirm what we do before.
Start with the Patricia voice where in the very first 8seg. you will hear clearly a complete and deep Patricia breathing slightly at the right of the center stage.
The very first percussion sound ( first sound is voice and piano. ) you will hear ( very tiny. ) a cymbal at 2.32 minute.
The track is very dynamic through piano, drums and percussions/cymbals. Well, at 4.45 minute you will hear a cymbal at the left side where you have to distinguish the stick stroke/shot on the cymbal very clear not only the harmonics and in the same left side with the same cymbal at 5.22 through 5.36 minute you have to distinguish how that cymbal is “ touched “ by the stick in the inner part of the cymbal where you can hear very clear/brilliant the stick stroke several times in that brief time.
Then at 5.47 minute and coming slightly at the left side of the center stage you will hear 5 ( five ) shots/strokes by the big drum ( where the drummer use his right foot. ) that are tight, deep, a little warm, fast, clear, with real presence and with no overhang.
This track ( all the recording. ) is overprocessed but if your system is spot-on then the dynamic of the recording is a beautiful fireworks time. The recording comes a little lower in volume you will need to change your volume level by 5db.
Of course that there are other several " things " to " see " on all those recordings but these highlights are IMHO good enough to start.
Almost always I make this three recording exercise twice. I use other 3-4 recordings for fine tunning but this will be for other better time.
I have to say that due to my problems in the English language is really hard to explain in precise way those “ experiences “ step by step but I hope it can be usefull for you.
Maybe for many of you these recordings does not like you ( because it si not the kind of music that you really like. ) but this is not important, the important subject is what you hear or what you can't.
Of course that depending of each one system there will be different “ flavors “ on what you hear but you can’t hear nothing totally different of what I told here.
As better is your system set-up as better and nearest you will be on what I post here.
Is it perfect this experience?, certainly not. Is it the “ Bible “? Again certainly not. It is only a “ tool “ with I have a lot of experience in different audio systems and like I say at the begin: always works.
I think it may have been more appropriate to quote a more recent President . . .
"It depends on what the meaning of the words 'is' is." –Bill Clinton
I'll be interested to see how this turns out, but since I don't get what "it" is you're really trying to accomplish, I'll just stand outside your tent and pee . . r in. :-)
It is this kind of double talk that is off putting. On one had you say 'fine with me" and on the other hand come with a smart alec comment 'pissing' quote.
The quote in itself is cool though and something to remember and practice.
May be it worth watching what follows, as Alex says.
With that said, I did not see any electronic music selection. I recommend a material with acoustic instruments in it so as form good ref ( as not many folks go to electronic music live concert). I recommend:
Talkie Walkie by AIR
and if you really want one of the coolest sounding musical deep bass ( dub) with lot of slamming and chirping mids and high, I recommend
Steingarten by Pole (from your neck of the woods, D.)
As for Rock/Pop - most of my favorites are currently NOT available new. One strong vote for Johnny Cash American Recording Vol. 1 (I know - its rather Country/Western....) and another for Neil Diamond: Home before Dark. Both do have - while fairly intimate and quite records - extraordinary virtues and at least the first is already a "classic".
Nirvana - Unplugged , this is a record that will remain.
Axel although the Lateralus is available on HDCD I still like the Undertow album, slightly unpolished and raw, not the sound though, and the first four songs are amazing!
Well Tubetan, you completely mistook the point. Its all about a "common language" - a "common ground". Its not at all about bugging the other with this or that detail in sonic reproduction which might be there or not. However - I am not on a mission and would be happy if at least a few A'goners do find useful idea in this. Lyndon B. Johnson once said: "better have them inside the tent peeing out, then outside the tent peeing in". I do not concur. If you can't see any point for you - fine with me.
Tubetan :-) I don't think you are a Philistine but 'projecting forward', our most valued Western thinking 'planning' genes kicking in. Why not try to 'go with the flow' and see what materializes. I guess there will be some to come of what you mention --- but there may be something useful also, I'm sure.
Just hang loose and try to avoid getting into some 'self fulfilling prophesy'. And you might find that bit of useful information you didn't even know to ask? Greetings, Axel
I guess I've completely misread the whole intent of the OP. After reading Dertonarm's response to my last post three times, I still don't know what he/she is saying. If this is just going to be one person saying "On side 2, four bars into the 2nd movement there is a buzz three chairs down in the violin section." and then someone else chiming in "You know nothing about system set-up so your hearing is invalid" or "Any fool could tell that's not a buzz in the violin section; it's the second chair French Horn clearing a spit valve." then I guess I wouldn't be interested in participating.
Thank you all for suffering a Philistine in your midst. I'll be on my way now . . .
Dear Perrew, you were/are right - I agree. I will continue with my suggestions and if we can establish at least a group of interested A'goners (guess you, Halcro, Siltskin, Axelwahl, Syntax and a few others including myself... and maybe several more not yet posting in this thread but watching) are interested and do see the full possibilities of this common ground. Great if most of the recording are available tooon either CD or SACD . Most will be available in the upcoming years as HD-download with much higher data than on CD or SACD. Thats why I am concentrating on timeless "classics", as they will be around forever - as time has already proofed the past 50 years. My Classic suggestions to be added on saturday and Rock/Pop Sunday. Please feel invited to add suggestions of your own for any of the categories. Thank you, D.
Dertonarm, I said earlier some people might be frightened by what they hear from there system, but that is always the case with change. I think this common ground is great, if you dont want to participate, stay out, but I think it would be extremely interesting to hear what other people hear(of course people can lie) when they listen to a record on there system, so I can compare how I experience it. Maybe I can gain some knowledge and if not I at least get to know a couple of new records. Dertonarm please keep the other suggestions coming. I managed to find the first three on SACD as well.
Dear Tubetan, Headsnappin, Nilthepill ...... it doesn't matter and we do not need anyone telling us the sound on any specific record is this, that and those.
All this is to have the one single common piece in all systems - the record on the platter. It is all about RELATIVE comparism and the option to discuss sonic differences with at least one common ground in the discussion.
It will always differ - regarding size of soundstage, low level detail, timbre, coloration, saturation of tone color, dynamics, impact and a few dozen other asoects.
This is not the point.
One some systems there will be "more" on some systems there will be "less". In any case, you will know the difference is NOT the software - ergo:......
What do you want? Someone telling you that this and that is there on a particular record? This was done in legions in the 1980ies and 1990ies by several writers of the absolute sound and others. Did it help you at all?
Those descriptions were usually done with vintage pressings certainly not available to all.
It seems to me that it is almost impossible to explain to some people the intend behind this and the idea of a common - yet not fixed in all parameters - ground building on the software used to made a sonic review or description.
Its the same as if agreeing on a common language to be used to communicate.
My god........
Well then, ....... it seems again,- as always in audiophile community: no common ground possible - no matter how tiny.
It seems too, that many prefer to talk into and out of the blue with no real connection to anyone else - that way we all can enjoy the illusion that what we have set-up at home is great, outstanding, the best, whatever.
Still better to link sound or the idea of sound to components listed in virtual space............... that way the "acid test" (see Halcro what I mean....- now isn't that a great joke in itself !) will never happen and no one has to face it - even if only by himself. Great.
Yes Halcro, - it seems indeed that most people do prefer to keep all things in the nebula. Might well be that some do fear the moments when it becomes apparent that what they hear on their system is not what other tell about that specific record. Even if only they themself will ever realize.
Apparently, - the longing for light isn't the same in all people.
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