Maybe it is possible to establish a widely accepted common ground in terms of listening bias by choosing and agreeing on 10-30 LPs all readily available new to all audiophiles for decent price. If all listening tests and personal comments regarding the sound of components and systems in the various threads and posts would refer to any of these LPs mainly, everyones comments and experiences would much easier be understood by their fellow Audiogoners.
I think this could be related to the thread "Are our test records adequate?" Are our test records adequate The great records should sound wonderful on ALL systems and I'd suggest:- The Royal Ballet-Ansermat-RCA Victor-Record 1 side 1 La Folia-Paniagua-Harmonia Mundi Adagio d'Albinoni-Gary Karr-Firebird The Super Analogue Disc The Three Cornered hat-Ansermat-Decca The Koln Concert-Keith Jarrett-ECM Dire Straights-Dire Straights (analogue recording better than the digital Brother in Arms unless you have tube electronics?) The Well-Jennifer Warnes-Cisco Paris Texas-Ry Cooder
But the real weaknesses and strengths in a system will be revealed I believe, in the 'difficult' recordings mentioned in the attached Forum?
Dear Stiltskin, can agree with those 100% - very nice pick indeed.
Whether the recordings are digital or analog is unimportant. We are talking relative comparisms here. ******The only important facts and features are:******
* readily available by mail-order or retail shop for decent (set a mark: below $50/record). * covering all aspects of music: * classic orchestral, opera, chamber, baroque, concerto * rock - heavy, metal, soft, studio - live * singer-songwriter - male - female, studio - live * jazz - bop, hot, cool, etc. * pop - male vocalist - female vocalist * choral * specials soundtrack (NOT Casino Royale !!!), electronic music etc.
Going for 3-4 LPs in every sub-category will give ample selection and enough food for everyone. We should take care too, that the records are "great" or "well recorded" (best is both...) all through. Not just 1 or 2 individual tracks.
I am sure we can do it.
Right now I am working on a list of mine and will it post here early next week for all to discuss and to illustrate my vision how this might look. I have to check whether all I have picked is vaialble and will post this list with full detail.
Please keep on to make suggestions of your favourites.
Dire Staits "Love over Gold" Don Henley "End of the Innocence" Eagles "Hotel California"
on the other hand, due to the widely varying array of turntables, arms, cartridges and phono preamps in all price and performance ranges, maybe this would be easier to do with CDs instead of LPs . . .
Hi Syntax, Mussorgsky 'Pictures at an Exhibition' (Classic, LSC-2201) Reiner CSO.
As with some other living Stereo RCA's there have been some original full frequency/dynamic versions --- than came the complaints and they got much reduced in dynamics so as to be able to play them on most often then used TTs. If you listen to one of these, well they are WELL below anything to write home about. So, I guess it's the re-issue for this one. I has just about EVERYTHING on it, right across the full orchestra 'blow-out' to very very gentle passages.
I could have mentioned Richard Strauss - Also sprach Zarathustra - with Reiner, but that one might just have been too much, same as Jacques Offenbach's - Gaîté Parisienne ... with, well you will know who *).
Now as I understand you wanted to 'ban' some stuff 'cause it's too good, making 'everything' sound too nice. What did you have in mind, just to get some idea. A. PS: *) Arthur Fiedler and the Boston Pops ... just in case.
Hi Axel, no, I don't know all reissues, I bought a lot in the last 7 years and most are not worth their high price (but there will be always some few exceptions), so I stopped it 2008 Alison Krauss: I don't have Abraxass: I have a reissue from a German plant, calm but awful 2201 I don't know about having it 2430 I have, but I have to listen to it (no memory)
Dear Syntax, not exactly the 3-5 records I asked for, but - as you know only too well...... - I would agree on almost all of them. I hope many more Audiogoners will join here - maybe we can really establish something of use for everyone of us. Cheers, D.
May I add some ideas about that? Forget those "Audiophile " Pressings (or the most ), they have nothing to do with the real thing, or Reissues, their high frequencies are lost in general. These pressings are nice to have, sound good for most Systems, but they do it in lower class C Systems, too. These records don't go with the better Systems, they level everything. The only exception I know is the 1. LSC series from Classic Records when Wilkinson was hired for checking the process. When someone has no idea about that, try to learn and don't list records which are better saved in the "Records To Die From" List I list a few which are easily to get in 2. Hand market for little money too
Some of the good - normal- ones:
AC/DC ( Bon Scott ) High voltage Atlantic 1//1,2,4 2//1,2 Cash, Jonny American Recordings American 9455201 1//1,3,7 Eagles Hell Freezes Over Geffen 24725 2//1,2 3//3 Scruggs, Earl Nashville's Rock Columbia CS1007 1//5,6 2//3,4 Wassermann, Rob Duets MCA 42131 1//3,4 2//1
Classic Records Bruch Scottish Fantasy - Heifetz RCA LSC 2603-45 Gounod / Bizet Faust - Carmen RCA LSC 2449-45 Walton Facade Suite RCA LSC 2285-45
Soundtrack Paris, Texas Warner 925270-1 1//1,2,3,4,5,6 2//1,2 Soundtrack The Graduate Columbia OS 3180 "360 Sound"
They can show the "Real thing", AC/DC has an enormous upper headroom...
Right, I vote for: - A. Krauss 'so long so wrong' - Santana (MFSL re-issue) 'ABRAXAS' - Mussorgsky 'Pictures at an Exhibition' (Classic, LSC-2201) Reiner CSO - Rachmaninov 'Rhapsody on a Theme of Paganini' (Classic LSC-2430) Reiner CSO
- only CURRENT available NEW records. NO vintage first pressings - NO super limited edition high-price reissues (4-set 45 rpm etc). It is NOT going for the absolute best sonic version, but for a common base. We need an easy available to everyone for NORMAL price record. If the recording is available on CD too ( even if that medium is dead and gone by 2011.....) - even better.
Hi, yes, I guess we need an attempt to 'level the paying field' (pun intended).
"Folk Singer" as mentioned, also some possible synergy with digital, yes?
Now, 'Folk Singer' on UltradiscII UDCD 593 STEREO sounds very good, so it does on CHESS records HDR 1001, yet a typical item to be in favour of vinyl, in my system.
B U T, now lets look at some others: - 'Sometin' ELSE' on UltradiscII UDCD563 sounds crap, to put it bluntly.
- 'Kind of Blue' Columbia COL 4606032 (CD, prod. by Teo Macero) is just as bad, and makes me wonder what everyone would want to rave about? Yet, having heard some more recent re-mastering, it's much better. (Surely it must have been re-master 1 million time by now...)
Artistic performance is somethin' else :-) but NOT the sound of it. We will have those issues to 'weed out' else we are headed for some chaos.
One more for 'flavouring' is DECCA SXL 2248 'La Boheme'. I have the DECCA 'wide silver band', alas made in SA! No idea if the 'Made in England' item is any better as far as plain old groove noise and tape hiss goes?
It is VERRRY dynamic and in places wants to dismantle your drivers! Horrific test for massed instruments, voice(s) et al. But as I said, groove noise --- bad news in deed.
Dear all, a suggestion for a guidline/some ruling:
***may everybody interest to do so suggest 3 records. All these records MUST be excellent recordings and all these records MUST be ready avaliable as re-issues or current pressing through retail stores or online merchants like Acoustic Sounds or similar (in other words: everybody has access to them). If the music has a universal appeal - it makes things easier to agree for most people. For instance: I think a record like Muddy Waters: "Folk Singer" will find wide spread approval. I would as another exmaple vote for R. Frühbeck de Burgos "Suite Espanola" on Decca SXL 6355 as an outstanding exmaple of a very dynamic orchestra with extreme live-like soundstage, shocking dynamics, subtle shaded colors and "breath", presence and a superb illusion of "being there". Its readily available as re-issue from Speakers Corner for fairly low money. This one belongs to the 10 best orchestra recordings ever made and features a wonderful suite of transcriptions for Orchestra from Issac Albeniz' Suite Espanola. The transcriptions were made by the conductor - so we are looking at a "definite" recording in all ways.
You are invited for suggestions. Please keep in mind that we do need indeed most - if not all - aspects of music covered AND great quality in terms of the recorded sound.
I think this is a very good proposal, many times when Ive read a review(not just magazine reviews) Ive picked up the record mentioned and tried to listen for the described section and see how my own system handled the described piece. Although I think this might be scary for some when they realize what their system does or doesnt do.
These "agreed upon records" are about to establish a common ground for sonic evaluation and correspondence only!!
We need "records which everyone has access to for normal prices".
I have over 900 first pressings (... most of them first stamper..) in Jazz and classical from 1958 to 1968 - however I would never ask for including original vintage pressings here. This is completely off point.
These records shall only serve to create - well: again.. - a common ground.
These shall not form the core of a collection, but shall reflect all aspects of recorded music and all aspects (..positive..) of recorded music sound.
Nothing else.
This package shall serve to create a solid ground to improve communication and make statements and sonic experiences one makes/have easier understood by other members.
So far I have seen several good proposals - each of them can serve here well. And - yes, the originals sound "better" - but it doesn't matter at all in this context.
I believe we have a great chance here - and it might as well work for the digital fraction too.
I suggested Alison Krauss "so long so wrong" If you got side two, 3rd (last) cut going fine, you got something going... :-) Then let us know what you use also. A.
In jazz I suggest 2 wonderful reissues from Analogue productions that everybody has (must have): Art Pepper meets The Rythm Section and Waltz for Debby from Bill Evans. Not expensive and widely available, sound to die for. Jean.
May I give an example of easily available , no contest good sound, better than original, not expensive and that many of us already have ? I think of Tin Pan Alley from Stevie Ray Vaughan's album Couldn't stand the weather from Pure Pleasure records. Everybody has it, don't you ? Jean.
Dertonarm I think your concept is a good one ,you mentioned this on another thread and I for one would participate.
I'm thinking out loud, a possible fly in the ointment....If it gets off the ground I'm confident you will hear from those with original first release or a better re-pressing that smokes the currant re-issue used for evaluation. This will have to be established first.
Dertonarm, I think this is a wonderful idea. If this catches on, I am sure that I will be introduced to some great, well-recorded music - both to listen to and to form a reference for discussion.
Let me be the first to nominate an LP: Muddy Waters, "Folk Singer" or Cannonball Aderly, "Somethin Else". Peter
The notion of music we all could become familiar with and use as reference sounds like an excellent idea. I no longer listen to vinyl though, do you suppose any high quality media would work?
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