Tbg : I have been actively searching out water sources for steam cleaning for years.
In theory, I believe that most any material thing can be purchased for a reasonable cost , provided one is willing to search off the beaten path. Aquiring water products is no different than other objects , just a tad more challenging.
What I have been attempting to do is to locate some national resource available to all interested parties at the lowest price. My reasoning has always been that the more obsecure the manufacturer the greater the control of pricing ,particularity, when ascribed as "medical or Lab" grade. Understandably, they do have greater requirements and specifications that support the cost(s) out-lay(s). Nevertheless, what I have discovered is that certian manufactures require , say demand, huge quanities of reagent grade ++ water products for production purposes at the lowest outlay of money.
The most significant are certian car battery manufactures ; the others, the Water, Soda and Food Industries. All of these industries are under the onslaught of foreign competition that could cause some to go out of business but not today.
This returns me to my earlier recommendation for Peak Battery Water ; this product has been distilled, RO'ed , de-mineralized ,de-ionized and filtered product for $4.00 Gal @ Pep Boys Auto.
Whether the Peak Product is as pure as other products I can not confirm but it does appear to be superior to most , low cost and nationally available. For now that's my personal contribution to the search. |
Markd51 and Crem1, as we really don't know what the benefits of purity are, I do think we have to go by what we personally judge to be pure enough. I have found, as I noted, that Walker's water sounds better as a final rinse than either store bought distilled water, which should be a pure as the steam that it comes from, and reverse osmosis water. Given what I use I will continue with Walker's water. I do wish some scientist would evaluate the benefits of greater purity for various purposes. |
The Prestone Water, while might be good, and good enough for many users, (and very possibly better than single step distilled), without any data to be had, and what type container such water is then placed in, still leaves me with some doubt?
I remember one of our very good agon posters, some time back with the Water Thread, with the very thorough, and extremely long post? Was very well done I thought, and the best lowdown I've ever read about water quality.
The links provided here in this thread of the gallons of water for a very reasonable price, seem like a very good cost effective alternative.
And if I had in my possession 10,000-15,000 LPs like maybe Michael Fremer perhaps has, I'd probably jump at the opportunity to buy it, but four gallons of water is a whole lot of water to buy, and for a "little guy" like me, I'd probably be collecting social security by the time I used all this water!? lol
As time passes, then one might also wonder, is this water still as pure as when I first bought it, or has chemicals from the holding vessle, and conditions it was perhaps stored in, now has leached contaminants-plasticizers into the water, now making it actually worse than the standard Wally World .69 cents a gallon stuff?
Ahh, many thoughts to ponder, but do enjoy the topic with you folks. We once delved into this topic a couple months ago on AKarma, lots of opinion of course, as there always is, one fella remarked he was a degreed chemist, but then offered nothing to the thread about cleaners, or rinse waters.
No scientific data, or common logical sense was offered from others in this thread on Karma, to back any argument in why we all shouldn't just be using chopped down Paint Brushes, and Paint Brush Pads to scrub, Distilled Water mixed with Dawn, Photoflow, and 99% Walgreens Iso Alcohol, forget the Enzymes, who needs them, and of course just whip out the ole Micro-Fiber cloths for the final wipe down, and rack em in the kitchen sink? Mark |
As I said, do what you need to do, as there is no real information on which to judge the needed purity of water you need. I probably would have continued to use RO water as I had been using had I not tried the Walker Prelude system. |
Markd51: Your point is well taken, kinda like "How many angels can dance on the point of a pin." For my part , I'll give anyone a good run for the money when it comes to a LP Collection, even still , how many records can I clean for today and into tomorrow is up for debate.
The one fact I am sure of is that should one own equipment that discerns the differences all to the good. If not , no problem at least you have a clean recording.
Before I steamed cleaned LPs the differences were less hearable. Now, as I use steam cleaning those differences are quite noticeable , so for me, the "cleaner" the rinse the better. How much better($ vs $$$) has yet to be determined. All the best. |
Here's a follow-up on using NERL Diagnostics' Reagent Grade Water for record cleaning.
I purchased a 5 gallon container for roughly $33 (including shipping) via the link I referenced above and it arrived at my door in less than a week after ordering. I compared that cost to Lloyd W's water at ~ $88 per gallon or Osage/Audio Intelligent water at ~ $72/gallon (both w/out shipping).
The NERL Diagnostics Reagent Grade water comes in a thick plastic 'bag' inside a cardboard box with an analysis printed on the side. I was very happy to find a spigot included. It was easy to attach the spigot, then turn the box on its side for easy dispensing of the water into an empty 32oz water bottle from my Walker Prelude kit.
So... how's it work? Works just like water. For record cleaning I've used the RO water from my home's system and of course the water that comes with the Prelude kit, but otherwise I don't have a lot of basis for comparison. And I don't have a fancy methodology, so no pretense of Science here.
The bottom line is I am now more convinced than ever that pure water rinsing is a key critical step in effective record cleaning. I started with records that had been rigorously cleaned with the Prelude system using my Loricraft machine, listened to them, then cleaned them again with one pass of the Prelude Step Two cleaning fluid and 2 rinses with the Reagent Grade water. One record was from an EMI box set of Richter and Kagaan at the Touraine festival playing Mozart sonatas and the other was the Telarc Slatkin Mahler Titan.
The records each sounded remarkably cleaner (substantially reduced noise and faintly increased harmonic information) after the second cleaning and rinsing. I've had both these records for many years and frankly I was surprised and delighted to hear them virtually free from pops n clicks. I can't say if the NERL water is 'better' - not sure how I'd know that - but including it in the regimen yields the best cleaning results I've had over many years of record cleaning.
I then cleaned a copy of the Marriner Argo Handel Water Music and declared victory. For a multi-year supply delivered to my door for a little Web research and less than the price of a new Speakers Corner reissue I'm quite pleased with the NERL water. Its my new reference water! (Heh - always wanted to say something Valinesque.)
Tim
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Tim,
You are such a NERL! ;-)
Fully agree that a very pure water rinse is an essential final step. Of course it's no surprise that a second cleaning sounded better than the first, as you said. Here's how we A/B final rinse waters:
Get both sides of an LP as clean as you know how. Then rinse side 1 with water A and side 2 with water B. Play and compare. (If you have a second set of ears available, as I do, don't tell him/her that it's a test until after they've heard both sides... double blind).
Now re-rinse each side with the opposite water. Play and compare again.
If you hear a difference, re-rinse the quieter side with the OTHER water (the water NOT used for when it was quieter). Play and listen to hear if the sound goes backwards. If it does, and re-rinsing with the quieter water makes it better again, you've identified the purer/better performing water.
Doug |
Hdm and Jtimothya thanks for the info for Thermo Scientific Nerl Diagnostics i just got off the phone with a very nice lady and orderd 12 pints of there Reagent Grade Water. Next time i will go with a 5 gallon order. Steaming lps does use more water. I think steaming gets lps to sound better than not.
Doug i understand your test on a/b ing sides but as you know different stampers used for lp sides could come into play sound wise. |
Dumb question: how exactly do you "rinse" the record? |
Drubin: Carefully douse , paint, or spray a portion of the LP absorbing the water with a micro cloth. Or, repeatly spraying pure water on a revolving a disc seated on a RCM, then vaccuming the disc to remove the water and any contaminates. Some record steam cleaners report dipping the LP into a shallow bowel of pure water , rotating the disc with a micro cloth in one hand to absorb the water from running over the label. What ever you decide , experiment with a trashed LP to perfect your hand-work. |
Drubin, my process for rinsing with a vacuum cleaning machine is to dedicate a cleaning pad (Walker Audio, Disc Doctor or Music Direct) to the final rinse; apply ultra pure water to saturate the pad; apply pad to rotating LP; then vacuum.
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With the record mounted on my Loricraft, I squirt water on it, then turn on the platter and hold a carbon fiber brush to the surface so the water gets distributed as the platter turns. Then vacuum off the water.
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Drubin,
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The Axiom everything matters especially applies to cleaning records and the sonic results that are yielded.
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I use a separate brush for each fluid and or rinse that I do. I don't want to cross contaminate from one step to another. Using "Ultra-Pure" water matters dramatically in each step (either as part of the cleaning solution or as a rinse).
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Using a strong vacuuming machine (Loricraft or other) is important in that you need to remove all of the cleaning/ rinse solutions off of the record to take the impurities /dirt/ mold out of the grooves.
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My great preference is the AI solution system as I have mentioned before. Walker's system is quite good as well. The more resolving your system the more you will appreciate the value of good cleaning / rinsing solutions and a great machine.
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Good Luck
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Rgds,
Larry |
Hello, to answer your first query, no, ultra pure water, lab-grade water and distilled water are not the same thing. Lab grade water is a collective term for different types of water used in laboratories, namely type-I, type-II & type-III water. Ultra Pure Water or Type-I Water is the purest form of water i.e. water without any dissolved components or solvents, it undergoes 4 stages of purification and is used in critical laboratory applications. Distilled water is the water that has been treated with the distillation technique, which is the oldest water purification technique. Moving on to the second question, I guess you could look for a laboratory consumable suppliers. They deal in various lab supplies from chemicals to solvents and might also provide ultrapure water. I hope my answer was of help, Thanks. |
