fuses - the $39 ones or the 85 cent ones

What spec. is there to measure here? I mean fact is they are amperage rated fuses, ones that are or are not rated to protect your equipment, made from a little more exotic and sustantial sized current conducting materials over a very cheap fuse, does the same job, with a better (or at least predicted better) material and quality. So what? Is somebody going to do a crazy test on a 39 dollar expendable component? Which by the way that is a good point to bring up as this is one of the Few EXPENDABLE audio components along with tubes, and turntable cartridges maybe really being the only other… Most other electrical devices are really designed for pretty close to a lifetime use, (Capacitors are arguable) I mean a fuse or tube can fail anytime under the conditions. I don't know what people want proven in this case, its not trying to sell a 2000 dollar power cable… Or a clock that sits in the room and magically changes the humidity and velocity of the air in your room hoping for better acoustics! It’s a small electrical device feeding your transformer and protecting it..

Try it or don't, who cares? This is by far the silliest argument, Tubes vs. solid state, Horns vs. Electrostatic.. Digital vs. Analog, lets go all day there are several factors involved, in this case we are talking about a very small, but possibly significant weak link in power conduction, simple.

I can agree the apprehension on many peoples parts is the cost to outfit a whole system with something like this.. They should be about 11 or 13 bucks each or something...

Please don't forget to elevate your power cables with a speacial Isoclean supports manufactured from the volcanic lava.
I am going to call Krell and ask them to stop making electronics with those damn cheap hissing fuses.

You do that, Dkzzz. They could probably use the laugh.

Krell already charges you at least an extra 50 bucks for fuses in their price anyway as they are WAY overpriced electronics in the first place, might as well get some that might be worth it then :-) Besides I think they just went out of business, I am sure the fuses are the ones that did them in...

If its all about feelings, head on and enjoy.
But, on the face of it a 39$ fuse? come'on, somebody is joking here.
Can you hear it? Who knows? Somebody who installs such a fuse than says they hear a change may just be fooling themselves. My car runs much better after being washed. And to change the DIRECTION of the fuse in the holder and expect to hear it? Nutty.

I would agree that specs are near-meaningless. I personally am very selective in my use or quoting of specs and than I use them as an 'advisory', not the law.

I would also disagree about it being about what other people hear. It is about what YOU hear.

I guess (know, really) that DBT is a real hi-end Hot Button issue. Nobody likes having there sacred cow gored. If someone hears a change made by new/changed (fill in blank) than more power to 'em. I personally won't try anything based on what a basically random selection of people say...as well intended as most are.
If 'subjectivity and anecdotal is the rule', how could you complain about the Bose lover? Straighten him out? NoCanDo, since he 'feels' this is the best.

And, as a final thought, it is difficult to PROVE anything with statistics. Most people don't understand this. If you set up such a test with a dozen 'golden eared' persons in an agreed upon reference system (I know.....million to 1 shot) and got a null result you could count on it. BUT, if even 1 of the listeners showed a statistically significant ability to distinguish that which was under test, than all bets are off. This guy DID hear something, even if it can't be measured.
In the early days of CD players, when the 1st '1-bit' stuff was coming out, there was a 3-way DBT. One of the listeners was spot on in his choices and way above chance. Of the remainder, another could tell one of the players out of the crowd, but couldn't distinguish the others reliably.
There is a place for DBT in hi-end.

What gives tweaks a bad name? I don't know...maybe it is the guy that plays the tones over the phone! or the rocks. or the cryo'd RCA connectors.

I hope this fuse of which you speak is not a line fuse. If it indeed a line fuse there is no reason to pay more than a couple of bucks max. The idea that a line fuse made out of gold will somehow improve the sound is ridiculous. What exactly do you think is the cause of this supposed improvement? If you cannot identify the cause of the improvement and somehow prove it (hopefully by application of mathematics like the rest of engineering principles are proven) then you are merely opening yourself up to countless scams. If the goldenn line fuse is going to improve the sound, then why would it not be equally important to keep the operating environment at very precise temperature and humidity levels - or install ferrite beads around all speaker cables and power conductors, or replace all soldered connections on your pcb's with silver solder, or better yet, build a faraday cage around your listening room. My point is that without having an explanation for these useless tweaks the only limitation is one's imagination, or more precisely, the imagination of the person proffiting by the sale. One reason that science is usefull is that it aids in making judicious choices. The proof of science is in the so called pudding. Space travel, digital computers, MRI's, cell phones, etc etc all are possible not through subective what ifs but through predictable outcomes arrived at via a scientific approach. It is not the case that we generally observe a phenomenon and then later explain it with mathematics but rather that the mathematics explain what is possible before the technology catches up.

Someone's been boning up on the Skeptics Handbook. and offering up the usual Strawman arguments.

Don't hold back, Musicnoise!
One bit of science you missed is the idea of repeatability.
When I add 2 plus 2, I get the same answer as anyone on the planet.
When you take a match to a balloon full of hydrogen and oxygen, in the proper ratio.....BOOM, you get a little puff of water vapor....every time.
There are various ramifications of all this tweak stuff.
That there is no concensus about anything...even as simple as a fuse, for Pete's sake, is a sign to me of extreme subjectivity and Weird science.

I am building a Faraday Cage around my house, even as we speak. I'll have 10ft Copper Ground rods driven by the end of the weekend and borrow a 'megger' from work to test the resistivity of ground. I'm sure this will remove the last bit of remaining haze from the upper octave.

By the way, if I am mistaken as to the location of the fuse of which you speak, and it is indeed neither a line fuse nor, for that matter, a fuse for one of the rails, then it makes perfect sense that the gold endcaps would make a difference. I was just not aware that any amplifiers used fuses to protect a differential input stage. I would highly suggest that you replace both of the fuses at the same time and purchase only a matched pair.

Musicnoise, your theory does not apply here in highend audio.
The only explanation is what you hear with your own ears!!
Whether it can be explained scientifically, mathematically or otherwise means nothing if you can't hear a difference with your own ears. The proof of science cannot change my hearing!! or what I percieve I hear.

Undertow, I wasn't aware that Krell went out of business. Where did you get this information?

I tried some of the premium fuses in my Accustic Arts transport and DAC (not tried them in pres or amps) and I cannot tell the difference, but I'm 50; maybe one needs to be younger. All the same, they seem well made as far as fuses are concerned, but I'll be sticking to sand filled ceramic types from Roger Modjeski, not that I can hear a difference, but for $3 I don't care (as much).

Magfan - I know I am a bit too shy in my approach and often do not make my point; alas, it's a fault, but what's a mother to do? Thanks for the reminder of repeatability - I knew there was a reason that most of the work I did for medical researchers had to do with replicating experiments - I wonder if the fuse guys replicate their subjective double blind studies. What? there are no double blind studies of what someone's highly reliable ear tells them? Surely you jest! My Faraday cage works great - Norah Jones (or is it Grace Jones) sounds sparkling, there is just a cleaner expressiveness with fuller tones and more depth. I hope yours works out as well. Sure its expensive and a lot of work, but its worth it.

Audphile1
a couple months ago there was an article and a couple of threads on Krell finally going out... They might be still operational, I don't know, maybe somebody saved them with a checkbook, again I don't know.

Musicnoise
Gold end caps have nothing to do with it, it is the better element and vibration control inside not limiting the current or something like that which matters in this case I would assume...

I have one of each...Norah and Grace. (nightclubbing, one cut of which made it to a Harrison Ford movie)...name it for 10 bonus points.

I suggest we drop this line. People have many ingrained prejudi. I don't understand the strawman reference of a few posts back. Am I supposed to be ashamed that I try to bring a little logic and reason to this discussion? Somebody tell me WHY audiophiles are afraid of DBTing?

By the way......Fuses are SUPPOSED to have a little piece of wire in them...that's how they work. As for a vibrating wire! Why would it vibrate and what effect would it have on anything? Microphony in Tubes is a known phenom and based on the vibration modulating the signal, at audio frequencies. But a single wire? what does it modulate? Somebody give me a reasonable expanation.

An empty head is not really empty; it is stuffed with rubbish. Hence the difficulty of forcing anything in to an empty head. ERIC HOFFER QUOTE::

08-20-08: Magfan
I suggest we drop this line. People have many ingrained
prejudi.

Why should we drop this line? It's been a
productive open discussion except for your smug, dogmatic interlopings
touting the junk science of DBT applied to listening
tests.

Am I supposed to be ashamed that I try to bring
a little logic and reason to this discussion?

That's an
arrogant assumption--that you're bringing logic and reason and the rest of
us are just stumbling in the dark without your
"enlightenment." You should be ashamed for being an interloping
troll.

Somebody tell me WHY
audiophiles are afraid of DBTing?

"Afraid"
isn't the word. "Dismissive" or "skeptical" is more like
it, and they're valid conclusions. Double blind testing was formulated for
testing efficacy of medical interventions (mostly medications) versus the
slight boost one might get from the placebo effect. In those cases either the
medication has an effect on the subject under test or it does not. Listening
tests are entirely different. In medication DBT tests, the subject is entirely
passive. No skills are required; results are tested and measured. Not so when
applied to audio. It depends on the subject under test (SUT) having the skill
to discern differences in a high pressure, time-sensitive test for an activity
(listening to music) normally associated with relaxation and non-critical
activity.

No one expects wine tasters to produce meaningful results without proper
orientation and training in the art and procedures of wine tasting. Why would
it be any different for discerning differences in audio.

DBTs applied to untrained, unoriented test subjects in audio is nothing but a
parlor trick to obscure meaningful differences that show up consistently in
other circumstances.

The reality is what you hear and enjoy. A test is simply a CONTRIVED way of
attempting to delineate and quantify those differences. Sometimes it works;
sometimes it doesn't. and if it doesn't. it doesn't prove a damn thing.

>>The only explanation is what you hear with your own ears!!<<

Not coincidentally, you hear what you want to hear.

This is true for all tweaks including rocks, clocks, and other forms of snake oil.

I just elevated one side of my couch and it produced : yes you guessed it Blacker-Blacks and Better-transients in my head.
BTW , you all can use Blacker-blacks expression, I am not planning to patent this audiofool's nugget.

Here's an up-to-the-minute fuse story that even I can't believe. I'd bought a number of HiFi Tuning fuses and heard real improvements, mostly in terms of openness and dynamics (yes, I did before-and-afters -- it's easy with fuses).

So I bought one for my Raysonic CD 128, put it in the unit on Tuesday, heard an immediate increase in clarity, along with a glare/brightness that was NOT an improvement. What the hell. So I let it burn in (a fuse? burn in?) until yesterday afternoon I couldn't stand it anymore and put the stock fuse back in.

Don't try to tell me these things don't make a difference. Unfortunately, not necessarily a positive one. Dave

As has been discussed previously, if a Hi Fi Tuning fuse is inserted "backwards" it will produce the overly bright sound of any fuse not in "correct" direction. Sorry about that.

I'm no scientist, and don't understand the DBT procdures too much. But, if you had two "identical" pieces of equipment, and you switched from one to the other with the listener not knowing which was unit playing (one with $39 fuses, and the other with $1 fuses) would you not expect correctly identfying whether unit A or unit B was playing (forget whether you can decide which is better -that's a different issue) more frequently than random guessing. And if listener after listener was consistently incapable of identifying which unit was playing, would you still argue that the $39 fuse was worth it? I can tell you that I (and I would suggest any listener)could easily pass this type of DBT "test" identifying whether I was listening to my Music Reference amp or Atma-sphere amp. I don't know how much further we can take the argument. There are those think they hear difference, and those that don't; and I don't think it is because those that don't have less acute hearing, or less revealing equipment. Maybe there is a difference, maybe not, but if there is, it is not obvious to my ears - and I do really want to believe that $39 can improve the sound of my system.

What I am shocked by (and again I will argue that the price is still substantially high) that 39 bucks has everybody in a tizzy over this.. First off there is an EASY to discern difference at times hearing these fuses, again just as stated above might or might not be a "Good" difference for music in all cases, regardless they do something is the point, so its obvious enough work can be done to eliminate a cheap link if possible and if it helps great.

That being said, I don't think anybody that even logs onto or reads this site in the has anything less than THOUSANDS of dollars into audio in the first place, or even THOUSANDS into several failed or succesful tweaks over the years which are the sadder cases!! Try it or not, again you will never know, might be worth a shot for some, not for others. Not sure where the argument is here..

"First off there is an EASY to discern difference at times hearing these fuses" There lies the rub. You are right though in that $39 is not the issue, or a reason in itself not to try it. I know if I had not already done so, and read this thread, I would try them and end up pleased, or have a good laugh.

Running off to work, BUT...
I agree, at first glance with Audiofeil.

I hear what I want to hear, just like my car runs better after a washjob or an oil change.

How else could the 'rocks' get positive reviews? These discussions verge on religion, a place where I won't go.

As for DBT usefulness for drug tests. Yep, but so much more. This technique is widely used.
You COULD get such a test together for Hi-end, but the loops you need to go thru make it a Practical near-impossiblilty.
Stuff like, 1. who gets the good seat? 2. What is the reference system....couldn't get 3 people to agree on THAT.
3. Who has time to organize such a test? 4. Where are you going to do it? 5. Who will do the Experimental Design?
6. Who will crunch the numbers?

So, while audiophiles have huge emotional reaction to DBT, they really have little to worry about. The chances of actually getting such a test off the ground is ZERO.
On the other hand, Cables and I/Cs to make a difference. I have heard it myself. Usually not for the better, once you have found your comfort zone.

Have fun with it. It's not the end of the world....or IS it?

Pubul57 has it pretty much down to basics.
For any 2-way test, the basic chances of a choice being right is 50:50. There is some more match to it, like levels of significance, but that is the basic idea.

Magfan, obviously you heard differences yourself with ICs and Cables because you wanted to. At least by your logic.

Cheers

Re my disconcerting experience with the last fuse (and they, or mine at least, cost $27, not $39), a couple of points.

* I tried it in both directions. No difference. Yeah, Geoff, I have bad ears.

* All the other HiFi Tuning fuses I used worked for me --i.e., they improved the sound. This one didn't. So it's not just whether or not you hear good things by upgrading fuses. Apparently some components may benefit, some may not.

* In many cases (in my system) the change is subtle verging on REAL subtle. And it takes time to really lock in on the change. But after a week or so you can put the original fuse back and THEN it's not so subtle. In this case I chose not to wait because the HiFi Tuning fuse made the CDP sound actively worse.

* Could I "hear" a fuse via a DBT? Probably not. Does that mean anything? No.

Dopogue
That is very good... I did the same, I did not find I liked better or worse at first the new fuse, but it was DEFINITELY different to some extent... Could not place it, however yes 2 weeks later I said guess what, lets get silly, I will play a couple things in the system and see how I feel about them, Sounded great with the new fuses, and I felt they were fine and not negative effects, and then simply put back in the Cheap fuses, and BAM they collapsed and were not bad on their own, but worse than the new fuses all of a sudden...

And this is not some kinda, "Its what I wanted to hear to justify the fuses" or some "Ozmosis of the brain tricking me" it was simple, things were like taking a button on a surround receiver and putting it between a more dynamic and full "Rock mode" setting and hitting the remote button back and forth to the "Jazz Mode" or something actually changing the depth and balance of the sound, and some of the background noise and distortion character was changed... Maybe that sounds like too dramatic of a change, but it was occuring between fuses at this point, unless my A/C from the outlet was changing that drastically from the comed street supply that quickly..

Lets just get the manufactures to stop wasting money on the processor modes and extra remote control buttons and put in a Fuse button to get the same effect with a relay to instantaneously switch back and forth for people to prove it :-)

Undertow, you are the man!:)
I would sign a petition to manufacturers of teh Worldz to force them to use better: thicker power cords with larger 3-prong plugs preferably red color.
And yes while we collecting signatures ,could we also ask teh manufacturers to use thicker braided wires in different colors inside their electronics? They try to scrimp on everything , those bastards. Would it killed them to include a bag of Hi-Fi fuses with each CD-player?

Hi Joe in Seattle. I use Hi-Fi Tuning fuses throughout my system. I first put one in my preamp. There was a subtle but audible improvement (especially in clarity of the signal without etch). The effect of these fuses is definitely cumulitive, however, and the more you install the better.

Dkzzzz
Not sure if you caught the drift, but I was being actually as sarcastic as you… Seems we are not quite that clever, but obviously my comments to you seem to be completely a Fairy Tale so be it…I would suggest however using pink colored cable sleeves then somebody might take us seriously!!

Pubul57: Thought I would respond to your statement which seemed to indicate that you felt that you did not have a lot of knowledge as to double blind tests. The "double" in double blind means that neither the researchers (those administering the test) nor the subjects know which product they are experiencing. In drug studies of course the product is either a placebo or the active substance, but double blind studies are carried out across the spectrum. This procedure prevents both the researcher and the test subject form biasing the test, whether deliberately or unconsciously.

Sorry, musicnoise, you have entered a NO SCIENCE zone.
Opinions and feelings are all that count.

BUT, in defense of the no-science crowd, MANY of them HAVE driven Hi-End by stuff they could hear and nobody else could. Engineers and Technicians have spent years catching up to good eared persons and it is NOT clear that they HAVE indeed caught up. The Best designers /executers do have good ears and distinct taste in voicing equipment.

So, that being said, what would the real purpose of DBT be in Hi-end?
That some cables sound Different is pretty established. That they are the be-all / end-all of a system in need of a little help is totally up-for-grabs.

I would like to know a few things::
1. Can people REALLY hear fuses? I don't see how this is possible, but who knows? That I claim my car runs better after being washed is, of course, nutty. Or is it?
2. Is there ANY consensus in a reference system, for those who CAN hear such a difference as to which fuse is 'better'?
3. Can anyone justify 39$ for a fuse? I mean REALLY, even if said fuse cost 10x a std 'littlefuse' to make, that would still make it only a couple bucks retail. I can't help it, when I see something so vastly overpriced, my 'scam' alarm starts ringing. I am perfectly willing to pay small companies a premium and would never begrudge anyone fair profit, but let's get real.

I just got confirmation that my 24 HiFi Tuning Fuses have been shipped.

I already have Isoclean fuses in my front end components and got a nice upgrade. It will be interesting to hear the effect of 24 HiFi Tuning brand going into my amps all at one time.

Please keep us posted, Albertporter, about the differences you hear.

"Engineers and Technicians have spent years catching up to good eared persons and it is NOT clear that they HAVE indeed caught up. The Best designers /executers do have good ears and distinct taste in voicing equipment." I do find myself agreeing with this to some (a great) extent, but I also wonder if it possible to design a great piece of gear without being also being a really good engineer grounded in a scientific approach to development, especially new design approaches not from the DIY cookbook. I respect listening and voicing as part of good design, especially if I like the designers sonic goals. But if 10 out of 10 engineers said that it is "technically" impossbile for something to have a sonic impact, would you still beleive. Under those cirumstances I would take pause about what I "think" I'm hearing. I find it strange that I'm leaning towards the scientific view of this since I am far from being technical or scientific. As much as I respect the art of audio design, and I do, I think that at he end of the day it is generally all grounded in good engineering principles. Of course, I have no idea of fuses making a difference in sound is or isn't grounded in sound engineering.

Pubul57

Of course, I have no idea of fuses making a difference in sound is or isn't grounded in sound engineering.

There is no free ride, a fuse represents a bottle neck in the otherwise fairly substantial network of electron flow that's necessary for the circuit to work.

Replacing the fuse with a solid piece of copper would be best, but I doubt your insurance provider would pay when you burned down the house.

Bottom line, if you can improve the "weakest link" by even a tiny amount, it can make a nice difference. The stock fuses work fine, provide equal protection as the expensive ones and are easy obtainable as well as being cheap.

Whatever the construction of ANY fuse, it contributes ever so slightly to the end sound. In some components and some systems the change will be small or inaudible. In other systems it can be enough that the end result is a very nice upgrade.

No, it's not like swapping speakers or even speaker cables. Even small improvements are hard won when a system has evolved over a long period of time, to the point that tiny tweaks become important to end result.

I'm making these statements based on experiences with Isoclean fuses, which I like very much. From what I've read, the Hi Fi Tuning Fuses should contribute equally to end results.

Jdec, I read your comments too. If this thread is still alive and kicking, I'll post results after I try them.

That may be worth a try....Bridge a fuse with a nice piece of 12ga or 10ga copper......
In the old days, many a house fire was started by a lunatic who stuck a coin in the fuse box. The REAL problem was somewhere else.

One last note....In Real Scientific Studies, the DBT kind that nobody here seems to subscribe to, a small %age of those receiving the Placebo (Sugar pill) ALSO get relief.
I would respectfully suggest that the next time you go to swap in a 39$ fuse, (I still can't get over that price...I work for a living, after all) get a friend to (OR NOT) actually put in the fuse. Be honest now! How many were fooled into thinking it sounded better?

No matter what, have fun. This is supposed to be an enjoyable hobby, for Pete's sake!

I guess that is one reason Ken Stevens designs the CAT amps with no fuses for the tubes. I can't argue with his results sonically, but if a tube blows it helps to know how to replace some resistors.

Ken Stevens is a quality and resolution freak, and his CAT gear proves he knows what he's doing.

I've owned amps that had only resistors and breakers (no fuses) but no way to compare to identical design with and without.

I've done my share of flipping over big amps and soldering resistors after a tube went bad, probably a better design than fuses but with my VTL's, there is no choice but replace fuses and I love the way they work with my speakers :^).

>>Magfan, obviously you heard differences yourself with ICs and Cables because you wanted to. At least by your logic.<<

Well that's not true Captain Kirk.

Audible differences in cables are attributable primarily to conductor composition, conductor purity, conductor geometry, and dielectric i.e. tangible explanations.

Unlike items such as clocks and rocks.

08-21-08: Pubul57 Of course, I have no idea of fuses making a difference in sound is or isn't grounded in sound engineering.

Anything that can affect the power supply can potentially affect the sound. The power supply is what delivers the B+ biases in the amp. If you have noise/ripple on the B+ it will affect your sound. No grey areas here.

Regards
Paul

Is the $$$ fuese argument then that the cheap ones cause noise/ripple problems to the B+ bias? Is that the technical argument for the "work" the "better" fuses are doing?

"How many were fooled into thinking it sounded better?" Good question. More than you might think, I think.

Audiofeil, nice Straman arguments from a man of experience. LOL

Mine is with real world audio components Geoff. Almost 50 years now.

To compare my knowledge with a clock and rock salesman is really disingenuous.

If the readership had to choose between the two of us for advice, I believe it would be a easy and quick decision.

Yes, There ARE real reasons for most cables to sound....different. Measureables such as capacitance and resistance are associated with either HF rolloff or loss of bass control...IE, reduced damping factor.
I use all Beldon / fabricated by Bluejeans Cable. They feature good prices, build quality and prompt delivery.
Just for example, when I read the 'science' behind some of the AudioQuest product, I want to laugh.
Thanks, Audiofeil for issuing the Good Captain a minor correction.
Now, if someone could come up with a plausible, even pseudo-scientific reason for a fuse to sound 'better', I'd be willing to listen and research.

Magfan, "noise/ripple" doesn't do it for you.

P.S. Audiofeil is one of the most knowledgable, honest folks I know "in" the industry.

P.S.S. While I have my doubts about the efficacy of the fuses, if Albert Porter says he hears a difference (for thebetter?)I'd give that due weight and serious consideration.

Yeah we are all nuts until Albert Porter enigma of audiogon says so... I will go with that thanks :-) I respect his system and contribution to the site, however if thats what it takes to wake somebody up so be it.

Give me a break this is not rocket science, nor does audio need numbers to support it as such if you have not learned by now the trial and errors on your own have shown you many things, I mean tweaks of Magic rocks, and clocks are pretty insane no doubt, I won't even swallow that, but this fuse thing is not so unreal that people should reject the fact a simple power supplying device can be done better as supposedly Isoclean and hifi tuning has attempted to do..

Weird as I can see why people would fight on some things, but this one seems like more time and money has been wasted worrying about it than ordering a single fuse to give it a shot.. Yeah you will spend the money you could have spent on 2 more CD's, its kinda like oh well..

Albert has gone to the extreme with an extreme system and has probably more money on these fuses than most have in their cables and sources combined!

Magfan, have you tried cables made of different materials? Silver cable sounds differently to my ears than copper cable. If you agree to this, then the rest is obvious.

The speakers are really powered by B+. The audio signal controls how B+ is transferred to the speakers. So any sonic signature in the B+ will be carried to the speakers.

The material used in regular fuses don't sound good to the ears. That's why some folks bypassed them. (Not a good idea though.) So if these fuses are coated with some nice materials like silver and gold, they can improve sound to human ears, well at least to some of the human ears.

Some part of science is observing the behavior in the world and then try to find theory to examine them. In other words, if one always uses what he/she knows in the past to judge new behaviors, the science would not have come this far.....

vett93 (Ph.D. in EE)