fuses - the $39 ones or the 85 cent ones

Thank you.

Pubul57,

The ones I have are Bussmann's ABC. Below are the specs for the 4Amp fuse I use for the mid-range driver that I got from Master-Carr. It doesn't mention whether it is sand-filled or not. I also have the 2.5Amp fuse for the tweeter, and that one is also sand-filled.

Part Number: 71385K29

UL Specification :: Listed
Bussmann Type :: ABC
Littelfuse Type :: 314
Ferraz Shawmut Type :: GAB
Available Amps :: 4
AC Voltage Rating (VAC) :: 250
Fuse Type :: Fast-Acting Fuse
Ceramic-Tube Fuse Type :: Fast Acting
Fast-Acting Fuse Type :: Ceramic-Tube Fuse
Visual Indicator :: Without Visual Indicator
AC Interrupt-Current Rating :: 10,000 @ 125 VAC
DC Interrupt-Current Rating :: 10,000 @ 125 VDC
Diameter :: 1/4"
Overall Length :: 1-1/4"
Specifications Met :: Underwriters Laboratories (UL)

I was curious about the theory that vibration applied to wires and/or electronics would generate some kind of signal.

Try this. Get a male XLR connector, and solder a 50-100 ohm resistor between pins 2 and 3, and connect pin 1 to the XLR shell - this emulates the source impedance of a microphone. Connect this through a typical cheap guitar-store microphone cable to any reasonably low-noise, high-gain mic preamp, and crank it up to full gain and listen.

Now slap the microphone cable around, and you will hear the effects of cable microphonics - they're obvious. Substitute a typical pro-grade cable (i.e. Belden 8412), and you will hear a significant difference. You might actually be able to repeat this with your phono-cable leads - it's just that the cartridge itself is microphonic as well, so it's less definitive.

But that's of course NOT the reason that some fuses have sand in them. The sand keeps the fuse filament from failing for mechanical reasons (i.e. shock, mounting position) when the fuse is operated continuously near its rated current, and the filament softens.

I was curious about the theory that vibration applied to wires and/or electronics would generate some kind of signal. So...I put a high gain phono preamp into a closed box with a speaker system, and blasted it with very high volume sound... much higher than it would experience with a normal setup. What came out of the preamp was absolutely nothing. No measurable voltage and no audible signal.

Vibration is certainly bad news for turntables, for tube electronincs, and, at very high levels, for disc players and maybe tape decks. But otherwise I don't believe there is an effect.

Just heard back from CryoParts, their ceramic tubes are not sand-filled.

Isanchez, are your Bussman's MDAs? I got some, and they have no sand in them.

Nsgarch

BTW, were both of the ceramic fuses you tried sand-filled?

I don't know if the HiFi-Tuning fuse is sand-filled. Perhaps others know the answer to that question.

The reason for my interest in mechanically isolating conductors is I've have been working with Purist cables for some time now (including a pair of their new, solid core Provectus speaker cables, Albert Porter kindly lent me to audition.) And I am absolutely convinced that a properly chosen shock-absorbing material around the conductors is essential to achieving the "blackest" possible background in the final sonics.

I have observed this as well when auditioning cables. For instance, I think one of the reasons that the Nordost flatline series of cables "lean" toward the upper registers is that they are more prone to vibrations than other cables where vibration control has been part of the design requirements.

In the case of my fuse comparisons, the difference between the glass and ceramic fuses was quite pronounced. I think that the ceramic body + sand-filling + the little "bubble", if you will, on the filament, help to explain why the sound is cleaner with the Buss fuse in particular.

I should also mention that on the Maggies 3.6R, the fuses are easily accessible and can be changed in seconds without powering off anything. Of course, I made sure there was nothing playing.

One factor to take into account when trying fuses on a power amp or preamp is that, for safety reasons, the unit has to be powered off. Depending on the design and topology, the unit may need some time to fully perform at its best again. IMO, this can be an obstacle when doing A/B comparisons because there is always going to be a longer time delay between tries. Therefore, one may be hearing the difference between a "warm" and "cold" unit, as well as the difference between fuses.

Isanchez -- thanks for such a complete report - yes, you were using your own ears, but this was a comparative exercise to begin with. And thanks for comfirming (my for now mere speculation) that vibration might be the main problem (I hold nothing against gold or silver filaments ;-) BTW, were both of the ceramic fuses you tried sand-filled?

The reason for my interest in mechanically isolating conductors is I've have been working with Purist cables for some time now (including a pair of their new, solid core Provectus speaker cables, Albert Porter kindly lent me to audition.) And I am absolutely convinced that a properly chosen shock-absorbing material around the conductors is essential to achieving the "blackest" possible background in the final sonics.

So it comes as no surprise that something like a hair-thin fuse filament hard-mounted in a chassis (and usually not far from the power transformer!) would sing like a bird.
I wouldn't be at all surprised that the exotic filament metals in the expensive brands might vibrate less than nickle/steel, but for thirty-nine bucks, they could throw in a little silica sand too!
.

I just cracked open a Buss Fuses ceramic fuse. The fuse is a sand-filled ceramic tube. I'm using these ceramic fuses on my Maggies 3.6R. The fuses are mounted on the speaker frame, so they are susceptible to vibration from the drivers. There is one fuse for the mid-range driver and one for the ribbon tweeter.

For the ones who joined the discussion in the last few days, I recently compared four fuses, two glass and two ceramic, including the HiFi-Tunning fuse. The sound was a lot cleaner with the ceramic fuses than it was with the glass fuses. Of the two ceramic fuses I tried, the Buss ceramic fuse provides a cleaner, more balanced sound. There is more energy and definition on the upper-base, lower mid-range region. The highs also have more clarity and definition. The HiFi-Tuning fuses were almost as good as the Buss fuses, but the latter has a much cleaner presentation.

It seems to me that the sand-filled ceramic tube absorbs vibrations quite well, hence contributing to the cleaner sound. Also, the filament gets thicker in the middle http://cgim.audiogon.com/i/vs/i/f/1220802079.jpg

I purchased the Buss ceramic fuses from: http://www.mcmaster.com/

The fuses are under the "Lighting and Electrical" section and cost $6.06 for a pack of 5. They are UL listed.

Pubul57 says:

"Knownothing, since you do hear the difference, it would be interesting to see if you could hear the same level of improvement with the $12 Acme. No DBT, just listening."

I dunno, didn't try them? Cheap is good, especially if its really good :-) Changing fuses is enough of a hassle that I am not likely to mess with a good thing for now, but if I get the hankering to fiddle with fuses in other pieces of gear I might give some of the cheaper alternatives a shot.

For what it is worth, the three HiFi Tuning fuses I replaced in my integrated amp taken together cost about the same as the AQ diamondback interconnects I am currently using, and the change made about the same degree of improvement in the sound quality as when I swapped the AQs in for some relatively cheap Monster cables.

Its hard to tell what my favorite tweak has been, because each improvement allows me to discern a greater degree of difference in sound resulting from the next action!?! Adding these fuses has to be way up near the top...

The HiFi-Tuning website in Germany has the prices for their fuses in Euros. The fuses are priced at 16 €, which is about US$ 23. Then these fuses travel business class across the ocean and by the time they reach US shores, they cost US$ 40. I'm glad to see other ceramic alternatives that are UL listed.

http://www.hifi-tuning.com/index_eng.html

Click on "Zubehör / Tuning" and scroll down for the full list of prices.

Nsgarch, you should also take a look at
http://www.cryo-parts.com/fuses.html

Ceramic and cryo'd for $7.75 - no indication of sand-filled, but I have sent them a note. Now these prices are more like it (though I don't know if they are better, the same, or worse than Isolclean/HiFi Tuning ones).

Now if I can get a cryo'd, ceramic, sand-filled fuse for $7.75 I'll try them. If the Isoclean/HFT can make a difference, these must also, but for a lot less money. I'm going to try the HFT Acme and the ones from CryoParts with my Atma-sphere electronics and Merlin VSMs (both pretty resolving). Now if I can't hear a difference, it only means I can't hear a difference; which does not prove much - it could mean I'm deaf or my system stinks. But if I do hear a difference there likely is one. Disclaimer, I have not financial interest in any of the vendors or providing cryogenic services.

Supply and Demand will get you every time!

When I bought most of my IsoCleans they were $25 each. They are now$35 for all values.

Knownothing, since you do hear the difference, it would be interesting to see if you could hear the same level of improvement with the $12 Acme. No DBT, just listening.

This is not about listening versus DBT. Many have listened and heard no difference, others have listened and do. The question is if a fuse can make a difference, why? And can you get one for less than $39. The Acme is interesting as it has many of the design features of the HiFi Tuning, including the close tolerance tube for the filament, and cryo'ed as well, all for $12. I'm sure that being commited to listening rather than accepting theory, you'll want to try them and compare them with the Isocleans and Hi-Fi Tunings. The sand-filled ceramic approach also seems to have an understable justification for reliability and possibly vibration damping that might make a difference. If the $39 fuses do sound better than the Acme, fine, they'll justifiably find their market, if the Acme are just as good or better, I'll save the $27 x 6 to fuse my system. Neil, thanks for the link.

I have to agree with Dave_b, the sonic benefits of these fuses change and improve over time. But I had what seems to be a unique experience after replacing blown stock fuses in my integrated amp with the HiFi Tuning fuses. The sound characteristics changed considerably and somewhat erratically, and it wasn't until many hours (>>100 hrs) that the sound stabilized and I noticed the overall benefits typically identified by users here and in professional reviews immediately after replacement. I am very pleased with the overall improvement in sound quality I am enjoying now.

My experience is described in detail here:

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?ymisc&1192881548&openusid&zzKnownothing&4&5#Knownothing

Pubul57, thanks for the lead. Starting with that, I eventually found this US company, sand-filled ceramic, fast and slo blo, all sizes, UL approved. I'm going to try some!http://okwelec.com/products/camden/fuses/ceramic-fuse.htm

Exactly Charlie Brown!

Eldartford, this thread is really the age old debate about listening versus theory and DBTesting.

236 comments about fuses! Good grief!

These folks at

http://www.rapidonline.com/Electrical-Power/Fuses-Circuit-Breakers/32mm-Fuses/Antisurge-32-x-6.3mm-ceramic-fuses/64647

have ceramic, sand-filled fuses in "small" and "large" sizes with a wide array of amp values. I think they are 50 cents or so US$$$. They don't use silver though - if that makes any difference. On the Hi-Fi tuning site it seems that the sand issue was raised and proved difficult to manufacturer for some reason.

.
Here is my email exchange w/ Acme:

Are your your silver/ceramic fuses 'typical' in their physical design: i.e. a fine wire passing through a ceramic tube? I ask because one of the 'devils' in filament fuses is vibration of the filament. Some designs now have the filament completely embedded in the ceramic or other material to damp vibration, and I wondered if yours are like that?

Hello Neil,
The filament is not embedded but is in a very close tolerance tunnel.
Michael

So I still like Roger's sand-filled fuse the best. Unfortunately he only has them in values he uses for his equipment. But these silver cryoed Acmes are starting to sound like a cost effective solution -- especially if one feels (as I do) that the important properties are vibration damping and heat dissipation --- not the use of exotic metals.
.

Pubul, we really have nothing but "classic testimonials." And of course, for me all they give me assuming they are credible, is the interest in hearing it myself or at least checking with my friends as to whether they have heard it and, if so, how it sounded.

I have too often tried tweaks that seemed to make no sense but proved quite important to rely on that judgment. At some point on many testimonials, I have tried tweaks, etc. and to my personal satisfaction have rejected the testimonials. An example is most ac filters and all surge protectors.

Well, I'm going to get the Acme and compare them with my Isocleans. At $12 bucks a pop, with silver, sand-filled ceramic, and cryogenically treated they seem like a real "bargain".

Pubul57
Just like the others ceramic is automatically a "Slo Blow" fuse and some components only come with "Fast blow" type, however most if not all should be able to take a slo blow, but you might want to ask your manufacture, I did and they even said I could go up ONE amp size on top of using a slo blow over a fast, most put the fast because they are super cheap and can be bought in the thousands for about 10 bucks.. Keeps them building components for years on one batch.

The Acme site suggests that one must be sure that their equipment must be compatible with ceramic fuses; why would a ceramic fuse not be compatible if it the right speed, size, and amp value?

Undertow, thanks for the link, at that price it is worth trying a whole bunch and it seems to have all the "bells and whistles" of the higher priced fuses.

Albertporter, my two 8amp fuses are in my Krell 400xi and it has been about 40hrs of listening and 3 weeks since installation (always on standby of course).

Pubul57
I will let the secret out, however its 2 dollars over your price range... but figured you might be able to scrape it together :-) see link, they are the bottom left product.

http://www.acmeaudiolabs.com/products.htm

Problem is I did not know of them myself till well after the others were in my system back in the day… I would not hesitate to say they are probably worth a shot due to the overall logic still used in them for the more reasonable price.

Pubul57, I don't know about a $10.00 fuse, but for a it more than the regular glass ones you can go ceramic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Fuses.jpg

Image does not necessarily relate to audio, just a way to show what the two types look like.

<<09-04-08: Pubul57
Is there a great $10 fuse?>>

Even better. There is a great $1.20 fuse. I gave the details in my first post.

Is there a great $10 fuse?

Dave_b, if you don't mind, please comment on time required for burn in and where in your equipment chain the fuse went (CD, amp, etc).

As they burn in the changes become even more apparent!!

I don't know much about MBL, but it is obviosuly good gear based on my hearing them at shows. It is interesting to me that when speaking to the folks who make this stuff (I spoke to three who make highly regarded amps)they don't buy the tweeked fuse approach as making any improvement in sound - that has been consistent. The one approach that I do follow, which was recommended by Roger Modjeski of Music Reference/RAM Labs, is to use ceramic, sand-filled fuses - not for sound, but to protect the equipment should a fuse blow and shatter - the ceramic stuff handles that much better than glass. But if you hear improvements, that's great, especially for just $39 which is exorbitant for a fuse, but cheap for any noticeable improvement.

Says something about MBL and how highly they trust their customers. Not surprising though..they don't want some nimrod screwin around with their amp and then sending it back for repair!

I e/m the engineers at MBL to ask their opinion on upgrading to the HI-FI fuses- they felt that it may cause damage to the units and felt it did nothing to the sound???- they HIGHLY rec. I stay with the regular (cheap) fuses)- bill

Thanks Dave, a project for this weekend.

Yes, do it now Timrhu!! I used home made wood plinths with brass footers..1" thick and 15"x15" for my subs. My subs also have Mapleshade brass heavyfeet footers attached for even more decoupling and isolation. The results are so impressive that I could swear I had a pair of new $27K wilson 8's or the like ...I did have a pair of the 6's once and the sub elevation has surpassed the bass quality and dynamics of those $20k speakers. The improvement was quite startling across the board; Better slam, improved weight and definition with increased clarity and soundstaging has improved as well. Image specificity and instrument placement are stunning...it seems that proper integration and decoupling of the subs effects more than just low bass response. The ear seems to pick up a better sense of coherence well up into the mid band...remarkable!!

Dave_b, what do you mean when you say you elevated your sub? Did you place them on a pedestal/slab? If so what was the result. I'm considering placing mine on a pedestal to get it decoupled from the floor.

Come to think of it, I do have alot of gas problems. Maybe it WAS gas and not the memory of a car crash at all that endeared me to the 8 btrack format. Oh well, we learn from each other because we care...right??

8 Track tapes had so much value, to so many people. Heartwarming! (Or- Was that gas?)

I did just elevate my sub's...what a freakin major advancement in low end authority and definition!

If it did not punch you in a head you would never heard the Fuses sing.
Elevate your cables to lower your blood-pressure.

In fact, it did soften the impact quite a bit...if only that pesky rearview mirror wouldn't have punched me in the head.

Dave_b, Did the rich Corinthian leather save your life?

My roomie and I had some OBNOXIOUS neighbors in college.
We doctored an 8 track down to about a 1 minute repeating loop, put on Charlie Pride at full volume and went to lunch. those were the days of tape splicers and head demagnatizers
Game / Set / Match

I rolled my dad's car over to an 8 track tape of Golden Earing playing "Radar Love" on route 81 in northeastern Pa while driving the scond leg of an all night commute from Millersvile U. to my future wifes college in Bloomsberg Pa. I landed in a ditch after skidding on black ice and landing at the bottom of an embankment...they closed the ramp after my accident was reported. The car was a Chrysler Cordoba. When I talked to my dad I said, "You won't believe what I've done to your car", using my best Ricardo Montelban voice.

I had T Rex "Electric Warrior" on 8-track. Unbelievable how many times that one looped.