I am going to cross post this. Turns out the 507ux is the first amp I have owned in a long time which is NOT AC grounded. The socket in the rear is a 2 pin, and the cable that comes with it is as well. AFAIK, in order to do this legally manufacturers have to take extra care and double insulate the gear. This could very well be a contributing factor in the sound quality. No ground pin = no ground loop through the AC line. Pretty awesome. :) Best, E |
I tested out the LOUDNESS and TONE controls on the 509x but the change in the sound was not that prominent when I heard it. Mind you I did not have my glasses on and was operating a little blind. The tune that was playing maybe not the best to hear these features at work. That room needs better lighting, because Something wonky seems to be going on. When I heard the 509 with the Wilsons I had to turn the treble and bass way down. This is the same setup that originally had the speakers wired out of phase, but it let me test the tone controls. :) The 509x has an extra transistor on each leg on each channel, along with a stiffer power supply, which should lower the output impedance significantly, but below a certain point, I've heard lots of amps with allegedly higher damping factor which did not actually sound better in terms of bass or transient response. You know gang, I got pretty lucky, there was a lot wrong with the setup when I heard the 509. There was not a 507 on display. Let me list it all out:
I still bought the 507 because it was half off and I thought I knew all the issues I was hearing while auditioning and that they'd be cured when I got it home. I was really lucky that I was right. Mayhap the issue was the cabling? Or there was a DSP at work somewhere mucking with the sound. I really don't know, but it was a real relief when the amp started playing at home. The Dagostino / Wilson setup right next to this was, by comparison, absolutely lovely to listen to. How you can listen to that, then turn 90 degrees and listen to the system I listened to without thinking something was wrong I have no idea. Best, E |
Thanks everyone! I can see why the 590 would win hearts and minds. TBH, if I hadn't gotten the 507 for half off, I would probably never have gone wiht Luxman. I'm very lucky to have gotten such a deal, but I can't see myself spending 2x more for another integrated. :) I'm very happy I went with Luxman, and now just have to convince myself to give up my 5.1 speakers. |
Hi builder3: Based on the published spec, the current 590axII is 30 watts: http://www.luxman.com/product/detail.php?id=1 |
So glad you asked. The speakers I use are the most exclusive in the world, using components typically found in Gryphon, Wilson and other exotic manufacturers: https://speakermakersjourney.blogspot.com/2017/12/snr-1-two-way-high-end-diy-monitor.html Very happy with 120 W/channel and not downgrading, thank you. :) Best, E |
@jetter You make a very good point. I have not heard a lot of Class D but I liked what I used (still own). I cannot speak for all Class D, but I will say I love the Luxman and quite happy to keep it for a long time. I'm not at all sure he'll run into room mode issues that can't be better dealt with via room acoustics, but if he's open do DSP and Class D, maybe the Anthem integrated is worth a listen to. Best, E |
Hi @yyzsantabarbara That's' a difficult question without knowing what kind of bass issues you have run into already. Honestly, Class D is really good now, if you feel DSP is a possibility, consider the Anthem integrated vs. the Luxman integrated as comparable alternatives. Also, GIK bass and soffit traps may help, but it's best not to overdo them in a small room. Put your speakers in and listen first. Another possibility for you is to add a sub, and put DSP in the sub channel alone. |
Taking into account that these are very different amps, I'm wondering how you use the loudness control.@ericsch Honestly I don't. :) I think for me I get enough resolution at lower levels, though occasionally the music is so interesting I do raise the volume. I think you have mentioned that you live in an apartment. I find that I have to turn the volume up quite loud to get the same effect as with the loudness engaged. I do, and I probably should try the loudness button sometime. Yes, that's the whole point, is to improve upon our hearing at low volumes so we can hear a broader range. The last time I seriously attempted to use the tone controls was at the dealer, where I had to cut the bass and treble to get the Wilson's balance to stop hurting me, and honestly they impressed me by doing exactly what I needed without any noticeable negative effects. I think part of the issue may be that I don't have a lot of light at my listening location and I'm reluctant to turn one on to figure out where the right button is on the remote. This is a very good sounding integrated, but the Luxman remotes need a serious ergonomic overhaul. |
PS - I still like my Parasound A23 and the ICEpower 250ASP more than any Pass amp I have heard in recent memory. I just happen to like the Luxman even more. Does this mean Class D and A/B are better than Class A? Absolutely not. It means these specific brands and designs have a hierarchy that is independent of their design class. So stop with the class wars, they don't help. Let the flames begin. |
I’m thinking some more about the Luxman vs. my ICEpower 250 ASPs. Very early on in my audiophile kink I was listening to some large Martin Logans powered by a little Sumo amp (one I eventually bought) and the rep replaced the preamp with a Conrad Johnson PV 10. What I was most impressed with was the ambience and decay around notes that was immediately obvious to me. In that sense, I’m having the same experience here with the Luxman vs. the ICEpower modules I’m using. In a sense, the ICEpower sounds too warm, and too far back of the hall by comparison. While the 507ux sounds more like that old preamp it also doesn't give up anything at the edges of the frequency range at all. Can I hear an improvement between the Luxman 507ux and those specific modules yes. Can anyone listen to the ICEpower and say "Oh, wow, Class D sucks!" ? No. The narrative that class D needs to work hard to get to as good or better than linear as an entire class needs to be taken out back and buried. No one should read this as a condemnation of all of class d anymore than you would if I was comparing the Luxmans to a Class A amp I dind’t like as much. Still, I’m quite happy with my purchase. In the specific case of these specific, outdated modules, I moved up. Who is to say what I will listen to 10 years from now? Best, E |
I'm very curious as to how it will stand up to the Primaluna, as I found it to be a very fine piece of gear. Me too! I've admired their designs, but never heard one. In the end though tubes are not really for me here. If I were to get a huge amount of money, afford my own home I'd love some old school CJ premieres. Also, please accept a quick thank you for your contributions to the forum. I don't post very often, but I read and appreciate your input here. Why thank you, kindly! Erik |
One attribute of the Luxman I am actually very pleased with is the resolution of detail at all frequencies and all volumes. Not an easy feat. Often when I hear reviewers talk about a piece of gear having excellent detail it means the gear is bright, brittle or hard. Not in the case of the Luxman. It seems to breathe incredibly comfortably at very low power and at any part of the spectrum. Evidence is that low volume listening sounds like "loudness" has been engaged, in that your ears seem to be younger, you hear more depth at such low volumes. Strings have bite without grit. Cymbals flourish, and deliberate phase effects in recordings and movies are pretty remarkable. |
Hi @Jetter I've always said the ICEpower modules were better than most like to give them credit for. I think the Luxman is a nice upgrade for me. I have a closer, more intimate presentation, power meters and I can consolidate several pieces into one. I was really fortunate to be able to get it at the price I did or I probably would not have been able to justify it. It would be interesting to note if others have been able to hear the Parasound line and the Luxmans and give their opinions of the differences. |
I should add, some of you will be wondering about the rest of my system. I am using a Mytek Brooklyn (v1) as the source, custom silver balanced ICs and custom speakers you may read about here: https://speakermakersjourney.blogspot.com/2017/12/snr-1-two-way-high-end-diy-monitor.html The tweeter is used by Gryphon, the woofer (or similar models) by Wilson, caps are Clarity CMR with copper foil bypass as needed. |
OK, I think I’m ready to come to a verdict on the Luxman: For sound quality, I think it’s a better amp than my Parasound A23 and ICEpower 250 AS modules, for identical reasons. It is also better than any Pass amp I’ve heard, for totally different reasons. Like the first two amps, there's nothing obviously wrong with the Luxman. No noise, no noticeable distortion. Compared to the first two, the Luxman has a more forward presentation, often called presence. Further, there is good bass extension when needed, which comes through more with television and special effects. The body of instruments from the piano to violins come through more clearly, and the shimmer factor is improved. The first two amps gave a much more distant, back of the hall, sound stage. Compared to the Pass amps though, it's a totally different story. I find the Pass amps I have heard leaner and frankly, audibly irritating. I’ve heard a very nice set up at an audiophile’s home, and heard many at an audio show near San Francisco where Pass was a sponsor. Whatever it is Pass fanatics rave about it grates on me. Perhaps this is the deliberately extra distortion Pass adds? I also find them limited in the extremes of the frequency response and therefore thin to my ears. You don’t have to agree with me at all, but this is my experience. |
Hi @rockrider and @jetter Thanks for asking. Unfortunately I tore down my TV/stereo set up completely, and it too longer to put back together. When Lily (the Luxman 507ux) arrived, I put her on a coffee table for the first few days because she wouldn't fit anywhere else. I ordered two three shelf racks, so I could put them side by side with the TV straddling them. That took me a while to get back together. The room acoustics are still pretty messy though, I have lots on the floor and the old entertainment center is acting as a big reflector. Part of what took me so long in this is I really miss having a 5.1 for movies. I have all the extra bits except for a receiver, so I was thinking of putting the sub in between, using it as a center channel stand, and using the "separate" feature in Lily. I think however that I'm just going to have to give all those bits up for now, and hope some day in the future I can have the space for it. What is helping is that the bass via the TV outs is really quite good, more than enough to annoy the neighbors. :) In the mean time, Lily sounds pretty good. If I ever really finish getting rid of all this extra gear I may go back and attempt to do a direct comparison between her amps and the Class D's I was using before. That would be an interesting listening party, right? Best, E |
@dpac996 I guess we wouldn’t be audiophiles if we weren’t complaining about something, remote controls included. Lol True! As for better measurements, how would one extrapolate such results to actual preception of sound, which is different for every individual? First, we need measurements which show differences. Until then, correlating with personal experience will have to wait. This reminded me and I wrote about it here: https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/the-carver-amp-challenge-and-the-21st-century-and-it-s-failur... |
Non audio pet peeve: The remote. The Luxman remote is early 1980s, and not in a good way. It's heavy, feels good in the hand, but horribly lacking in ergonomic features. Every button is the same size, kind of in random order, and no backlighting. I expect more from gear costing 1/10th of this. At the very least, shaped volume buttons, and a source selector. There are buttons that work for the disk spinners too, but not for the tone controls. Of course, motorized tone controls would be expensive, and honestly, I'm a little in love with how good the tone controls are here, so I'd rather not mess with it, but in the dark with my older eyes, this is one difficult to use remote. Best, E |
The equipment CAN’T change as much as we do unless something is seriously wrong with power grid That's true only if you assume everything that is audible has been measured. Or that the tests have been done to prove or disprove this. I don't assume the first, and have never read of the latter. As an engineer who relies on measurements, I know I hear things which change over time which I have no explanation for. I once left my gear off over a weekend, came back, turned it on, and thought, man, this sucks. 48 hours later the sound came back. No idea why. I replaced caps in a pair of Focal speakers and for about 72 hours heard weird surround effects. Tones and instruments appearing behind my head. No changes to room acoustics from when I heard that to when it ended. The latter case tells me there may have been very subtle HRTF (head related transfer function) issues coming up. If so, no standard measure of capacitors would have easily found it. As for the Luxman, I do have a cold right now, so bad time to judge. :) Also, I kind of want to remind everyone, it's kind of a shame we don't see more invention of how to measure amps, caps and cables. Almost all the measurements I know of except Jitter predate the CD player. They were fine for their era, and not to be discounted, but we live in a world with computers, automated signal analyzers and cheap data capture. It is a real shame we haven't attempted to push the state of the art for discovery and measurement in audio. Best, E |
Hi @pokey77 Nope, I heard the 507uxII’s with the Wilsons. He had moved the harbeth out of the way for a previous customer. I don't know how the Wilsons were configured, but I was forced to engage the Luxman's tone controls to get the system balanced. Honestly the system set up was not very good, so I kind of had to hope I was hearing other components. Fortunately the Luxman sounded superb once I brought it home. Best, E |
Hi @andysf Thanks for that, that's' what Mike said. I'm a little surprised, I thought my previous amps took a while. Actually I bought them used so not sure how broken in they were, but for sure, turning them off for 24 hours means I have a 2-3 day warm up time. Being Class D the power isn't an issue. Best, E |
PS - I can say both that the Luxman sounds better than what I had AND also say I’d have a tough time justifying the full retail price of the jump. Going from ~ $750 to a $6,500 is a big deal for those of us who make a living doing honest work. :D If the sale wasn't going on, I'd probably have done a Rogue tube integrated. Best, E |
This is a surprise . You’ve been so busy defending class d recently . Did @maplegrovemusic I still defend Class D!! The class-wide disparaging comments of Class D are not true. We should evaluate each Class D amp on it’s own merits, along with Class A, A/B and all others. I also have never said all Class D was better than all other amps. I've said some Class D were a lot better than some megabuck amps, and that a lot of Class D amps can bat with the big boys. I got to hear the Mk II version at the dealer before purchasing. I actually drove down to the dealer who is only about 1 1/2 hours away from me. I needed a road trip anyway. So yes, I did purchase it without hearing it in my system first. At almost half off, I was willing to take the risk, and it wasn’t that expensive. @audioman How much was your Digital amp? What brand and is it a integrated ? I am going from ICEpower 250 ASP amps in Ghent cases. Not an integrated. My Mytek Brooklyn DAC was my pre. Now it feeds the Luxman. The 250 ASP modules I purchased (used) from Parts Express were around $200 each. Now new ASP 500 modules run around $350 each. My message is while the Luxman does sound better than the ICEpower 250 ASP modules right now, nothing makes one go "Oh, yeah, this one is linear, and this one is Class D." I stand by my previous statements. The 250ASP are about the same transparency of the Parasound A23 amps. And also better than the Pass monoblocks I’ve heard. :D The Luxman 507ux is better than all of them at this point in my listening. This may change after it breaks in though, as I mentioned, sometimes you loose that detail and air after things settle in. As an audiophile, I shouldn’t have to defend my choice to try out something new. :) Especially if they have meters. I’ve had a fetish for amps with meters since I encountered the Yamaha P2001’s in racks. Oh I miss their style and looks a great deal. In particular, I’m trying to consolidate, and get rid of components, so I started looking for an integrated, and the super sale on the 507ux Mk I came up, and after a lot of research and feedback I jumped on it. |
For the Record, the ICEpower modules I am using are long in the tooth design-wise, so like any other amplifier, just because I am critical doesn't mean you should apply these criticisms to ALL Class D amps. ICEpower, Texas Instrument, Hypex and others have continued to develop Class D. I've not heard them recently though. |
OK, so the amp is barely warmed up and I’m hearing some of the usual early onset effects. First, they are not destroying my Class D’s yet. For sure, 95% of the common wisdom about Class D sounds is not evidenced here. My previous comparisons, Class D to Parasound said the same. The Luxman barely turned on has a high "shimmer" factor. If you imagine what big sheets of metal they used for thunder sounds and cymbals, you get what I mean. However, as @dgarettson (probably wrong name) can attest, caps often sound like this before they break in. He called them "splashy." After this, electronics often calm down and that air and shimmer goes away. Is that going on here? I don’t know, I’ll know by the end of the week. While it does not make my ICEpower 250 ASP modules sound suddenly bad, there is a lot more shimmer and air, almost a touch brightness. By comparison, the ICEpower sound veiled. However!! I’ve heard this veiling from linear amps as well. So we need to stop talking about Class D like we are in the 1980s. Let’s just treat them like any other class of power amp. Best,E |
