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Help me understand "the swarm" in the broader audiophile world

I'm still fairly new out here and am curious about this Swarm thing. I've never owned a subwoofer but I find reading about them--placement, room treatments, nodes, the crawl, etc--fascinating. I'm interested in the concept of the Swarm and the DEBRA systems, and I have a very specific question. The few times I've been in high-end, audiophile stores and asked about the concept of the Swarm, I've tended to get some eye-rolling. They're selling single or paired subwoofers that individually often cost more and sometimes much more than a quartet of inexpensive, modest subs. The same thing can be said for many speaker companies that make both speakers and subs; it's not like I see Vandersteen embracing the use of four Sub 3's. 

My question is this: do in fact high-end stores embrace the concept of multiple, inexpensive subs? If not, cynicism aside, why not? Or why doesn't Vandersteen or JL or REL and so on design their own swarm? For those out here who love multiple subs, is it a niche thing? Is it a certain kind of sound that is appealing to certain ears? The true believers proselytize with such zeal that I find it intriguing and even convincing, and yet it's obviously a minority of listeners who do it, even those who have dedicated listening rooms. (I'm talking about the concept of four+ subs, mixed and matched, etc. I know plenty of folks who embrace two subs. And I may be wrong about all my assumptions here--really.)

Now, one favor, respectfully: I understand the concept and don't need to be convinced of why it's great. That's all over literally every post on this forum that mentions the word "sub." I'm really interested in why, as far as I can tell, stores and speaker companies (and maybe most audiophile review sites?) mostly don't go for it--and why, for that matter, many audiophiles don't either (putting aside the obvious reason of room limits). Other than room limitations, why would anyone buy a single JL or REL or Vandy sub when you could spend less and get ... the swarm? 


northman
erik_squires
16,144 posts
 
"A straw man fallacy occurs when someone takes another person’s argument or point, distorts it or exaggerates it in some kind of extreme way, and then attacks the extreme distortion, as if that is really the claim the first person is making."


I think the real issue here is you are unable to separate criticism of your fans from criticism of your tech, or alternately defending all your fans but as I type this I remember we are retreating an endless debate about who can and who cannot (or will not?) read nuance and detail.

The beauty of a blog like that is not having to retread old arguments. I’m going to let it speak for itself more, and clarify it less.


Best,

E


northman OP
254 posts
 
Here's a quick note from the sidelines, thanking you all for the informative and spirited responses to my questions. Truly engaging. Because I love good prose almost as much as I love good music, I also want to thank Tim (noble100) for his generous and insightful writing. I have a few more questions but I think I'll put them away for now and just express my appreciation. Thanks!
audiokinesis
2,743 posts
 
Erik, you are too good to hang your hat on name-calling and too smart to treasure your grievances. 

Why not talk tech instead? 

Duke


mahgister's avatar
mahgister
13,102 posts
 
I own speakers with 7 inches bass driver...

With acoustic ACTIVE devices controls and not only PASSIVE materials treatment, they gives me so much bass which i feel with my stomach that i disconnected my sub....

( A sub was not a good idea for me because too difficult to make it right and i realize that on the spot, but i bought it thinking my speakers were not adequate in the bass region and i was wrong like i realized AFTER my room controls treatment and active devices )

Acoustic of the room is the most underestimated factor in audio with the general noise floor of the house....Active acoustic devices controls seems totally unknown , sellers prefer to sells costly materials for passive treatment but they cannot do by themselves alone what active controls can do in difficult small room with an irregular geometry and a complex acoustical content.... :)

For example how do we use reverberations in a positive way to make the sound more alive with only a passive treatment? No way, it takes active acoustical control devices....Cancelling ALL reverberations is not the right answer at all....

I dont doubt that 4 subs are better than only one tough..... But i dont feel the need for them now with cello listening, or piano....And my room will not accept the 4 boxes, being too small....And anything i cannot replicate myself is too much money for my purse anyway....

I post here only to mention about an unknown side road or alternative underestimated solutions...

If i was selling subs i would prefer to sell expansive one than 4 cheap one for sure....If i was selling acoustical room treatment i would prefer to sell only costly materials than cheap device active controls....

:)


hleeid
219 posts
 
@northman
Others have indicated valid possible answers to your question regarding DBAs being (or rather not being) offered at dealers.

So I will just share with you my experience with the Swarm.

My first listening room had a low ceiling and was 10 x 12 minus closets. Of the many subs I tried, none could contribute quality bass response.
As soon as the sub volume was high enough to hear some bass, it was boomy, ringy, etc.
It was like everything was being overwhelmed.

Just over a year ago I asked about a subwoofer solution on this forum and found out about the DBA. Knowing there was absolutely no way I could place 4 subs on the floor in that small room, I decided to pass on it.

Then, I saw a thread about placing one or more of the subs up high facing the ceiling. Not for aesthetics or to save floor space.
The reason was that any ceiling facing subs will contribute to dispersion in the vertical plane.

The next day, I called Duke at AudioKinesis, had a great conversation and ordered a Swarm.

I placed 3 of the subs up high on metal shelving units facing the ceiling and one on the floor next to my desk supporting my lamp.

The one sub on the floor, with such a small footprint is the ONLY additional component taking up space.
AND, it is smaller than your typical sub.

The added storage gained from the metal shelving units actually helped organize some gear while acting as diffusers in each front corner.

The sound honestly amazed me.

I immediately noticed two things.

First:
At most any reasonable volume level, I heard more detail from cellos, bass guitars, etc. This greater detail also extended up into the midrange.

Second:
The sound stage got bigger and fuller.
The holographic (3D?) effect was more convincing.

The speakers I regularly rotate are:
KEF LS50s, B&W 801 Matrix S2s, Ologe 5s, Magnepan LRS and Harbeth SHL5+40th Anniversaries.

Music: mostly classical, jazz and some rock.

Volume level: varies quite a bit


These are 5 significantly different speaker designs.
With the DBA, each of the 5 speakers provided tight, fast and accurate bass along with the bigger soundstage and greater detail.

I have recently moved to a house with a bigger listening room (14 x 16). While this room was being finished, I set up my system in a smaller room (12 x 15).

I am now in the finished larger room and now have 2 subs on the floor.
In all 3 rooms, with all 5 speakers, the DBA noticeably raised the performance in the above mentioned ways.

Interestingly, the DBA provided the greatest percentage of improvement in the smaller room.

I then read some more about the multiple bass source concept and discovered there is science behind why this is so.

Thought it was just my initial excitement.

Hope this helps you with your decision!





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