Help me understand "the swarm" in the broader audiophile world

northman:" My question is this: do in fact high-end stores embrace the concept of multiple, inexpensive subs? If not, cynicism aside, why not? Or why doesn't Vandersteen or JL or REL and so on design their own swarm? For those out here who love multiple subs, is it a niche thing? Is it a certain kind of sound that is appealing to certain ears? The true believers proselytize with such zeal that I find it intriguing and even convincing, and yet it's obviously a minority of listeners who do it, even those who have dedicated listening rooms. (I'm talking about the concept of four+ subs, mixed and matched, etc. I know plenty of folks who embrace two subs. And I may be wrong about all my assumptions here--really.)"

   Hello northman,

     I understand you're confusion, hesitancy and numerous good questions. When I initially learned of the 4-sub distributed bass array concept about 6 yrs ago through reading about the results of research on the use of multiple subs by Earl Geddes, Floyd Toole and Todd Welti, my thoughts were much the same as yours. 
     I actually learned about the effectiveness of the 4-sub DBA concept prior to discovering that Audio Kinesis offered two very similar, complete kit versions of the concept in their Swarm and Debra products for $2,800 at that time ( I think it's currently priced at slightly more). 
     In fact, I was initially planning on buying a pair of JL Audio F113 and a pair of F110 subs to try out this concept, for a total price of $15,000, before learning of the AK Swarm and Debra at considerably less.  Of course, saving so much money was my main incentive but AK's offer, of a free in-home 30 day trial period, made my decision to buy the Debra a real no-brainer bass bargain buy.
     When I first experienced the bass performance of my AK Debra 4-sub DBA in my system and room a little over 5 yrs ago, I felt like I was being let in on a big home audio secret and like I won the bass performance lotto.  I remember thinking: Why had it taken me so long to learn of this excellent bass solution concept and product? 
     Why wasn't this concept more widely discussed and utilized, especially by members of a high-end audio site like Audiogon?
      I know my very positive and early experiences listening to the 4-sub Debra DBA, which has not diminished in the last 5+ years, has caused me to be a very enthusiastic supporter of this concept and to often attempt to spread the word on its remarkable effectiveness on this forum ever since.  I don't apologize for this, realize Duke/audiokinesis remains the foremost authority on the swarm/DBA concept on this forum and  believe the increased discussions on this forum about this concept and multiple subs in general are beneficial to all.
    And you asked:" My question is this: do in fact high-end stores embrace the concept of multiple, inexpensive subs? If not, cynicism aside, why not? Or why doesn't Vandersteen or JL or REL and so on design their own swarm? For those out here who love multiple subs, is it a niche thing?
     I think many high-end stores do embrace the concept of multiple inexpensive subs, but I also think millercarbon was correct about money and profit margins and that dealers more likely embrace the concept of 
one expensive sub and really adore the concept of multiple expensive subs.  Hsw had a good point about REL and other sub companies starting to endorse the concept of multiple subs or stacks, too.  It's not  hard to figure out why, right?

     You also asked: "Other than room limitations, why would anyone buy a single JL or REL or Vandy sub when you could spend less and get .. the swarm? "
     If someone chooses to use a single sub, no matter its size, brand, quality or cost, rather than at least a pair of good quality subs, IMHO, they're most likely doing so due to a lack of knowledge and experience.  There's also the possibility that they're just blindly accepting some bad,  but obviously trusted, advice.  I think we'd probably learn more on why by listening to their answers to this question.
      I can state with certainty, based on personal knowledge and experience, that 2 subs will perform about twice as well as a single sub and that 4 subs will perform about twice as well as a pair of subs. I also believe, however, that you shouldn't take my word for anything I've stated on this post. I think we all generally learn the most and best through personal experience. 
     My shared Home Audio Deep Thought for the Day is that much personal audio knowledge gained is less about absolute truths and more about personal, subjective preferences.

Best of wishes to you grasshopper,
Tim

"A straw man fallacy occurs when someone takes another person’s argument or point, distorts it or exaggerates it in some kind of extreme way, and then attacks the extreme distortion, as if that is really the claim the first person is making."

I think the real issue here is you are unable to separate criticism of your fans from criticism of your tech, or alternately defending all your fans but as I type this I remember we are retreating an endless debate about who can and who cannot (or will not?) read nuance and detail.

The beauty of a blog like that is not having to retread old arguments. I’m going to let it speak for itself more, and clarify it less.


Best,

E

Here's a quick note from the sidelines, thanking you all for the informative and spirited responses to my questions. Truly engaging. Because I love good prose almost as much as I love good music, I also want to thank Tim (noble100) for his generous and insightful writing. I have a few more questions but I think I'll put them away for now and just express my appreciation. Thanks!

Erik, you are too good to hang your hat on name-calling and too smart to treasure your grievances. 

Why not talk tech instead? 

Duke

I own speakers with 7 inches bass driver...

With acoustic ACTIVE devices controls and not only PASSIVE materials treatment, they gives me so much bass which i feel with my stomach that i disconnected my sub....

( A sub was not a good idea for me because too difficult to make it right and i realize that on the spot, but i bought it thinking my speakers were not adequate in the bass region and i was wrong like i realized AFTER my room controls treatment and active devices )

Acoustic of the room is the most underestimated factor in audio with the general noise floor of the house....Active acoustic devices controls seems totally unknown , sellers prefer to sells costly materials for passive treatment but they cannot do by themselves alone what active controls can do in difficult small room with an irregular geometry and a complex acoustical content.... :)

For example how do we use reverberations in a positive way to make the sound more alive with only a passive treatment? No way, it takes active acoustical control devices....Cancelling ALL reverberations is not the right answer at all....

I dont doubt that 4 subs are better than only one tough..... But i dont feel the need for them now with cello listening, or piano....And my room will not accept the 4 boxes, being too small....And anything i cannot replicate myself is too much money for my purse anyway....

I post here only to mention about an unknown side road or alternative underestimated solutions...

If i was selling subs i would prefer to sell expansive one than 4 cheap one for sure....If i was selling acoustical room treatment i would prefer to sell only costly materials than cheap device active controls....

:)