Gmood1 - Thanks for sharing! I'm going to order me one. Did you buy from eBay or Audiogon? I haven't got a response from the seller on Audiogon yet...
-Ben |
Horseface -
Yeah, it doesn't matter what type of file I use, even uncompressed WAV's. Actually, if I burn a CD from the existing files and play that from a CD player running to the same DAC, it sounds better, so I know it's not the source files. Honestly, I hear a bigger difference between the CD player and HTPC quality, than I do a 320Kbps MP3 and WAV!
Ben |
Artizen65 - Thanks for the info. That sounds like a very practical solution. I think I'm going to try the Trends and see how that goes. I'm also going to try it through Vista and let you know if it's worth the upgrade. Take Care,
Ben |
Shadorne - Thanks for your responses, but I think there's more to it than that:
"You should avoid any D to A and A to D conversion. Clearly by sending things through your sound card then you are making a conversion somewhere in the PC. Clipping in an A to D might explain what you describe."
There is no A to D conversions... going sttraight out the SPDIF of the sound card to an external DAC.
"If you are not making a D to A and A to D conversion then the sound cannot change between a CD played in your PC or from a separate CD transport."
I used to beleive this, but it's not true, as you can read about the KMixer. I also beleive it goes beyond just the KMixer, since I've tried ASIO drivers that bypass it. Anything the computer does to process the sound affects it, even though you're in the dital realm.
"Another possibility is that their is a bug in your compression and de-compression steps that introduces losses."
I get the same results when running an uncompressed file (WAV).
Ben |
Ryanmii -
Yeah, I'm using ASIO with WinAmp and Foobar2000 for testing purposes (although I like MCE because of the remote, there is an obvious quality loss when using it). The ASIO undoubtebly sounds better, a lot clearer, no distortion that is audible like when going through the Kmixer, but it's still not as 3d as a regular CD transport to the DAC... Arghhhh...
Thanks,
Ben |
Jax2 -
I think you may be right. I guess it may be a power source issue with an internal card sharing the dirty power in the computer... has anyone tried the Trends Audio UD-10? I am considering it since it's a USB and uses seperate power (even a battery pack if you want) and it's for 130 bucks! I just don't know how much of an issue the power is, vs. the clocking that makes it sound better. I'm sure it's not the best clock in the $130 unit.
Thanks,
Ben |
Jax2 -
I talked with Steve from Empirical and he seems to really know his stuff. His products sound like a great solution, but a little pricey... but may very well be worth it. I am curious though if anyone out there using cheaper units have got their computer to sound as good as a CD transport? I've had replies on how the USB devices sound "better" than internal cards, but can someone experiment with a CD player and tell me if it sounds as good or better? Also, anyone use Vista with MCE? I hear they fixed the Kmixer issue... that would be great!
Ben |
Gmood1 - Definitely let me know what you think of the Trends. I'd really like to get the Off-Ramp, but I just can't afford it right now. If I can find something that equals my CD transport quality, I will be happy for now, but until then the computer is only a convenience thing...
Yes, I tried the SRC when it came with Foobar a ways back (I guess it needed to be licensed so they pulled it). Honestly, I had a hard time telling a real difference. The upsampling on my hardware DAC sounds better to me, but it does seem to "soften" the sound. As you can see from my setup, I like the soft sound, so that's a plus for me.
So have you tried an optical out to your DAC from a CD source to compare? I'm curious of others setups if their computer is sounding as good as a CD source. BTW, I use glass optical cables and for my setup, they are slightly better than the coax... I don't have the option with the M-Audio card though...
Ben |
Just following up with my decision to purchase a UD-10. I received one in the mail yesterday that I purchased from a dealer here on Audiogon. Unfortunately, it died after about an hour of use. This may have been my fault though, I don't know. It worked great until I plugged in the AES/EBU digital. The moment I plugged that in, it threw my DAC into a frenzy, making digital noise and lights on the front were acting weird. I immediately unplugged the digital cable, but my DAC was still going nuts, so I unplugged the power from the DAC (no power switch). Luckily after I restored power to my DAC, it came back up and works fine, but the UD-10 is now dead (at least no output from any of the digi outs anymore, the headphone out still works).
I wrote the seller on this to see how to work the warranty on this thing, but haven't heard back yet. It really sounded MUCH better than my internal card digital outs (coax) and I didn't even get to use the battery yet. So I'm curious... Is it common practice to unplug from the USB any time a digital connection is made to a USB DAC? I want to know if the device was faulty or if it's possible that its my fault for making a connection while it was powered on by the USB. The problem here is that the UD-10 didn't come with any manual whatsoever... not even a piece of paper decribing the device. There was nothing to tell me not to make any connections while it's plugged to the USB. I've done this many, many times in the past (other devices powered on when making digital connections). Actually most DAC's don't even have a power button, so they expect you to plug them in while powered on...
Anyway, it's a sad thing right now. Hopefully it's not a huge hassle to repair/return under warranty. I'll let you guys know how it goes. I will say that for the short while that I heard it, it was much better and I would buy another one if I knew it was reliable.
Ben |
Gmood1 - I just got a call from Koby that sold me the UD-10. He was very cool about it and he's shipping me another one right now. Good guy there. This time, I'll make all the digital connections BEFORE plugging it into the USB, although he said that it shouldn't have fried it doing what I did, so it may have just been a defective unit. Still, I would rather not take the chance a second time!
So where did you get your power supply from? You said one that works with an SB3? What is an SB3?
Also, I am using Vista with MCE and it sounds a whole lot better than XP (not ASIO). I can't A/B XP ASIO and Vista, so I don't know if they are the same or not. I am leaning towards thinking that ASIO would be better, just because Vista will still enable you to use digital volume control. This is a great feature for me, since my tube preamp doesn't have a remote. If I can get it to sound as good as my CD transport, then I'll be happy. For the hour that I got to hear it, it was VERY close, but I think barely a little less 3D (barely, not like before). I am sure this will go away after the unit burns in and if I change the power source. I'll let you know the results when I get the other unit in the mail. Take Care!
Ben |
Hi Dave,
From my experience, I think you do have to go through "this much trouble" to get good quality out of a computer. I don't think it was too much trouble though. I've found that in my experience, seperating the power from the computer is a major difference in sound quality, as well as bypassing the Kmixer in windows. The best sound card in the world is going to sound bad if the data fed to it is distorted from the kmixer (and I imagine the dirty power from the computer doesn't help the situation). I am very happy with the quality I am now getting from the computer. I didn't think it would be possible, but USB with it's own power source is the way to go. I'm using Vista now, which doesn't have the kmixer anymore and it sounds MUCH better than XP did... I mean night and day difference here. I am not sure if it's better than ASIO in XP, since I can't easily A/B them. You may want to try ASIO on your system and see what you think if you haven't already. I think a PC can surpass any transport if it's set up right. The technology to pull data off a hard drive is far surperior to optical CD technology, as long as you get bit perfect transfers to the drive in the first place. Maybe certain transports color the sound in a pleasing way that the PC won't do, but that's what my DAC and tube system are for.
Ben |
Well, this thread is a little old now, but I'm going to have to follow up on it. I am now using a Paradesia + USB DAC, so I'm running straight from the PC to the DAC, then to a Placette RVC and to my amp. It still isn't "quite" up to par as the CD transport to a MSB digital director (jitter correction) then to the DAC using glass toslinks. It sounds VERY good, and it's close... but it's just not quite there. Not quite as involving and the soundstage is not as deep... the transients are also slightly longer using the CD transport. I've tried Foobar, DS through Vista. I also tried the same glass toslinks out of the computer (using an external USB converter, nice modded linear power) to the jitter correction and to the DAC just like the CD player and it sounds REALLY close to the direct USB to the DAC, but barely not quite as good, and obviously not as good as the CD transport. I'm using CD's I burned from the music on the computer, so I know it's not a data loss issue. I'm stumped on the reason why, but as for now, CD still beats the Hard Drive in my experience. I guess the quest goes on!
Any suggestions?
Ben |
Regalma1 -
I own a USB DAC, and it rocks, however, that's not totally true. I need to follow up on my last comments because I mis-stated something major in it. When I last tested the CD transport against the DAC, I had the DAC running from the USB input and not the glass toslinks. In theory, the direct USB should have sounded better, but in my setup it does not. It has taken a LOT of experimenting to get here, so I will share my experience with others and hopefully save them a lot of time.
Get a Trends UD-10 (USB to SPDIF converter) or similar device. Then upgrade the power to a linear power supply (absolutely necessary). Run a glass toslink from the USB converter to a jitter reduction unit (I use a MSB digital director). Then run glass to the DAC. With the digital director, I can have up to 6 digital sources that automatically switch when they get a signal. This way I could play back the CD transport and the computer at the same time and flip between the two, playing the same song at the same time. I could not tell a difference between the two! The computer sounds just as good now. I swear by the MSB digital director... going through that opens the soundstage and bass response that was lacking compared to the CD transport against the USB input to the DAC. And I'm talking the difference between sitting and listening to music for hours instead of just turning it off. It's what puts the music right into that place where it comes into the room with you and is so involving. That's what I need when I listen!
My girlfriend and other friends have also commented on it and agreed that going through the jitter reduction sounds better than direct USB, and they are not as freakish about sound as I am.
Yes, this may just be my system. Maybe Audioengr's equipment does this without using a seperate re-clocker (like the MSB I use) or just clocks it right in the first place. But what I'm trying to get at is that the direct USB doesn't always mean it's better!
Rock on!
Ben |
Oh, forgot to mention... you gotta use Vista too. A mac might work as well, I dont know, but as far as Windows goes, Vista sound is excellent.
Ben |
