2. pc-audio
  3. 1168589271

Help with PC Audio Quality vs. CD

I hope someone with real experience can help out with this. I am having a hard time getting the same quality sound from a PC that I get from a CD player. I recently built a HTPC running Windows MCE and ripped all my cd's using lossless compression. I'm using an M-Aduio Audiophile 192 sound card and run a coax digital out of the PC to an external DAC and to my amps. It just sounds flat to me, not that it's not clear sounding, but the bass is weaker, I can hear a harshness that's not there if I run any old CD player to the DAC through the same connection. Has anyone else experienced this? I keep reading in this forum that people are saying how much better the computer transport is in theory, but I have yet to witness it. I heard that the Windows KMixer is the problem. I tried ASIO and Kernal Streaming drivers that are supposed to bypass this, and it sounds clearer, but still not as 3-dimentional and "black background" as a CD player (and I mean ANY cheap CD player, I've tried 3!)

Can someone out there with an external DAC try this and let me know their results? Use a DVD player or anything with a digital out... I don't get it. My soundcard alone cost 3 times as much as the cheap DVD player I tried and it doesn't sound as good. Anyone experience this or have any suggestions?

Here's my system so you can understand the sound I'm looking for.

I have an external MSB Link DAC III Full Nelson that I've been using for years and I really like the sound of it. I've been using a couple Sony CD changers and running them to a MSB Digital Director that will automatically switch between digital inputs, out to the DAC, then to a tube pre and tube power amp (modded dynaco ST70) and out to a pair of Monitor Audio GR10's. This system (with the right tubes) sounds so sweet to me. I'm into the huge soundstage, crisp, smooth sound - melty mid-range... you know, the analog tube sound!

I have experience in recording studios and work professionally in computers, so I have a good understanding of both, so don't be afraid to get technical with me. Any help would be greatly appreciated!!

Ben
thesauce
thesauce OP
21 posts
 
Just following up with my decision to purchase a UD-10. I received one in the mail yesterday that I purchased from a dealer here on Audiogon. Unfortunately, it died after about an hour of use. This may have been my fault though, I don't know. It worked great until I plugged in the AES/EBU digital. The moment I plugged that in, it threw my DAC into a frenzy, making digital noise and lights on the front were acting weird. I immediately unplugged the digital cable, but my DAC was still going nuts, so I unplugged the power from the DAC (no power switch). Luckily after I restored power to my DAC, it came back up and works fine, but the UD-10 is now dead (at least no output from any of the digi outs anymore, the headphone out still works).

I wrote the seller on this to see how to work the warranty on this thing, but haven't heard back yet. It really sounded MUCH better than my internal card digital outs (coax) and I didn't even get to use the battery yet. So I'm curious... Is it common practice to unplug from the USB any time a digital connection is made to a USB DAC? I want to know if the device was faulty or if it's possible that its my fault for making a connection while it was powered on by the USB. The problem here is that the UD-10 didn't come with any manual whatsoever... not even a piece of paper decribing the device. There was nothing to tell me not to make any connections while it's plugged to the USB. I've done this many, many times in the past (other devices powered on when making digital connections). Actually most DAC's don't even have a power button, so they expect you to plug them in while powered on...

Anyway, it's a sad thing right now. Hopefully it's not a huge hassle to repair/return under warranty. I'll let you guys know how it goes. I will say that for the short while that I heard it, it was much better and I would buy another one if I knew it was reliable.

Ben
gmood1
1,251 posts
 
That's a bummer Ben. Well I've plugged digital outputs up too mine... no problems at all. You are suppose to unplug the USB when plugging or unplugging the power supplies. I haven't seen anything about the DAC being turned off. I've had two DACS plugged up at the same time ..no problems. Maybe the unit was just defective?

If you think it sounded good off the USB power. You should hear it with the battery or linear power supply.

I hope the Agon dealer takes care of you. The unit is definitely worth the $90. You'll spend several thousand on a CDP to match it combined with a good DAC.
thesauce OP
21 posts
 
Gmood1 - I just got a call from Koby that sold me the UD-10. He was very cool about it and he's shipping me another one right now. Good guy there. This time, I'll make all the digital connections BEFORE plugging it into the USB, although he said that it shouldn't have fried it doing what I did, so it may have just been a defective unit. Still, I would rather not take the chance a second time!

So where did you get your power supply from? You said one that works with an SB3? What is an SB3?

Also, I am using Vista with MCE and it sounds a whole lot better than XP (not ASIO). I can't A/B XP ASIO and Vista, so I don't know if they are the same or not. I am leaning towards thinking that ASIO would be better, just because Vista will still enable you to use digital volume control. This is a great feature for me, since my tube preamp doesn't have a remote. If I can get it to sound as good as my CD transport, then I'll be happy. For the hour that I got to hear it, it was VERY close, but I think barely a little less 3D (barely, not like before). I am sure this will go away after the unit burns in and if I change the power source. I'll let you know the results when I get the other unit in the mail. Take Care!

Ben
gmood1
1,251 posts
 
Yes I like the volume control too. I have this with my PC. The only problem is if the volume control is still enabled while listening to music. You haven't bypassed the windows audio sys.
It makes the sound stage a bit flat. The USB-Audio driver will completely take out the windows audio sys.

In order to get the best sound, the Kmixer has to be bypassed completely. You need the ASIO drivers to do that. You'll know when it's done because the volume control will have no effect.

The SB3 stands for Squeeze Box 3. You can go to Audio Circle and read about these little wireless units.

You need a 1.5 amp 5 volt power supply . Elpac use to make them.The same units discussed on AC will work with the UD-10.Go to AC an do a search on SB3 power supplies. You should get a lot of info to pop up. EBay could be a good place to look for this power supply. It is larger than the USB converter itself. lol
davemitchell
253 posts
 
You shouldn't need to go through all of this trouble to get better results. Something else is going on.

I don't know about that particular card, but have lots of experience with the Coax out of the M-Audio 24/96 and even the less expensive Revolution. I typically use plain old MusicmMatch Jukebox and do everything as WAV files. The results are very good. Not as good as multi-thousand dollar transports, but at least as good as entry level ones.

I also don't have any experience with your specific DAC. I can tell you that some DACs are much more sensitive to timing error than others and that could be a problem. In my experience, the Perceptual Technologies units work very well with PC's as a source.

For my own system, I use a Lynx AES16 with AES/EBU digital out into an Audio Research DAC3mkII. It gives me the best results of anything I have ever tried. The cards from Lynx and RME are better sounding than most others, including the otherwise pretty good M-Audio cards.

I used to spend a lot of time experimenting with this stuff and comparing the best I could achieve with a PC to very high end transports like the Audio Research CD3 and Linn CD12, for comparison.

For those of you who think that a transport is just a transport and that a PC can easily equal any transport, my experience has found that nothing could be further from the truth.
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