I am not sure if I will buy this although I suspect that it could be good and I agree with the importance of the cd vibration issue. When I take out my old portable cd player I am astonished at the amount of vibration that you cane hear and feel. Even with my Woo top loader transport I can often hear vibration from the spinning discs. My own solution has been a variety of disc tweaks but also to add small 70 1/10 in duro sorbothane pads to the clamping mechanism of both the Woo's ( I have 2) and some older low cost front load drawer players. The effects sound very much like what are described here with Herbies mat. Using sorb is probably more difficult for most people since it needs a better adhesive than the standard stick-on with which it is sold. I use a Lord industrial adhesive which runs about $35 for 1/2 pint so Herbies is a good choice for this who don't want to mess with the glue. And it is messy but very effective.
Herbie’s Super Black Hole CD Mat - Wow!
I just received the Herbie’s Audio Lab Super Black Hole CD mat in mail. It’s a little black disc that fits atop a CD which has silicon on one side (the side that touches the CD) and carbon fiber on the top. I’ve only listened to a few songs (electronic genre) and my first impression was simply “Wow!” I’m hearing so much further into the recording. I’m hearing the ambience much better. Notes have more texture. Imaging seems to have improved. On one track, there is a sound that is panned to the right and repeats three times. I thought it was identical on each note, but with the CD mat it’s easy to hear that on the second note, it actually moves 6 inches towards the center of the soundstage and then back out to the right. It’s always fun to rediscover your music when you find a tweak you enjoy.
From their website, this is how they say it works:
“By reducing micro-vibration in the CD spin during playback, laser-reading error is potentially reduced. (Error correction in audio CD discs is not perfect; it is algorithm-based "guessing," not binary like in data CDs). By damping the disc/clamp interface, micro-vibrations generated by spinning discs are hindered, keeping them from permeating throughout the player where capacitors, op-amps, micro-processors, and other sensitive parts can be adversely affected.”
I can’t confirm whether or not that’s the whole story to how it works, but I’m convinced it does something amazing. I will report back after I listen to some more music of other genres.
From their website, this is how they say it works:
“By reducing micro-vibration in the CD spin during playback, laser-reading error is potentially reduced. (Error correction in audio CD discs is not perfect; it is algorithm-based "guessing," not binary like in data CDs). By damping the disc/clamp interface, micro-vibrations generated by spinning discs are hindered, keeping them from permeating throughout the player where capacitors, op-amps, micro-processors, and other sensitive parts can be adversely affected.”
I can’t confirm whether or not that’s the whole story to how it works, but I’m convinced it does something amazing. I will report back after I listen to some more music of other genres.
102 responses Add your response
A search laed me to a review, but the picture is small and I haven't yet read the lengthy review. Do they peel off to be used on the next CD? http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0109/fo_q_audio_dampening.htm |
Thanks for your review ! I ordered one based on this. I have been using a SID as well as the CD lathe from audio desk systeme to great effect . Looking forward to comparing the twu discs' effects . I wanted to order the New Dark Matter from Geoffkait , but Yahoo said to correct his email address , so I can't order it . Geoff I'm here: bohan.joseph@yahoo.com Contact me and I'll order one . Joe |
I have had four damping discs including the Marigo green and black and the Herbie's super black hole. The same results with the Herbie's, dulling the dynamics and highs, robbing the sound of it's musicality as Robert and Frank report. Yuk! However, I am using it on my VPI TNT VI placed on the center spindle where it raises the label slightly and with the VPI heavy weight, gives my less thick, standard discs (under 140mm thickness) a better VTA. I suspect that the center dip in the platter is compensated for by the Herbie's black hole. I also have the Ultradesk CD cutter and a first edition of their demagnetizer. The only, major and simple to use product I've been using for about 8 years now is the Walker Talisman demagnetiser, a pair of magnets swept over the top and bottom of discs. It's so obvious in use, just play a disc, then demagnetize and voila, a superior sound (more coherent, dynamic, clean). Sure it may sound like a rip off at over $200 for a pair of magnets but it's elegant and better than the Ultradesk cutter in so many ways. I also highly recommend Herbie's tube dampers. Even multiple silicone rings on tubes are great at reducing ringing/vibrations from tubes. |
I've used four different CD rings including a green and black Marigo. The Herbie's use results are the same in my system as in Robert and Frank's. Diminished musicality, reduced dynamics and compressed sound. Not good. However, I have an alternative use for the black hole. I use it around the center spindle of my VPI TNT VI with superplatter. It slightly lifts the label area to good effect with the VPI heavyweight to provide a better VTA for standard LPs (140mm and thinner). It's probably due to the VPI platter's slight indentation slope towards the spindle area. I also have an Ultradesk cutter and demagnetizer. I have since found that the Walker Talisman demagnetizer to be a superior and elegant product to use on every disc, CD and LP, with obvious benefit to every CD I play. Sure, it over $200 for a pair of magnets but I use it exclusively since 2008. Wonderful product or make your own. Easy to test. Play an undemagnetized CD, then swipe the Talisman on top and below the tray with the disc in it holding a finger on the edge. Then replay CD. Voila, clearer, cleaner sound. Just as if the resolution increased and distortion/hashy sound decreased. I wouldn't want to be without it. I also highly recommend Herbie's tube dampers. I've also used dual silicone rings around tubes to lessen tube vibration to great affect. Tube vibration is not a good thing for audio. Many cheap current production tubes can be made so much better sounding with just adding vibration control. E.g. EAR 864 phono stage has EJ 12AX7s. Placing dual silicone rings on each tube will improve the sound of those tubes 100%, closer to a nice pair of NOS Siemans or Philips (not as good, but a lot closer). Luckily my phono pre and pre-amp have only subminiature tubes with nearly vibration free glass envelopes (suitable for bomb use). |
I've used four different CD rings including a green and black Marigo. The Herbie's use results are the same in my system as in Robert and Frank's. Diminished musicality, reduced dynamics and compressed sound. Not good. However, I have an alternative use for the black hole. I use it around the center spindle of my VPI TNT VI with superplatter. It slightly lifts the label area to good effect with the VPI heavyweight to provide a better VTA for standard LPs (140mm and thinner). It's probably due to the VPI platter's slight indentation slope towards the spindle area. I also have an Ultradesk cutter and demagnetizer. I have since found that the Walker Talisman demagnetizer to be a superior and elegant product to use on every disc, CD and LP, with obvious benefit to every CD I play. Sure, it over $200 for a pair of magnets but I use it exclusively since 2008. Wonderful product or make your own. Easy to test. Play an undemagnetized CD, then swipe the Talisman on top and below the tray with the disc in it holding a finger on the edge. Then replay CD. Voila, clearer, cleaner sound. Just as if the resolution increased and distortion/hashy sound decreased. I wouldn't want to be without it. I also highly recommend Herbie's tube dampers. I've also used dual silicone rings around tubes to lessen tube vibration to great affect. Tube vibration is not a good thing for audio. Many cheap current production tubes can be made so much better sounding with just adding vibration control. E.g. EAR 864 phono stage has EJ 12AX7s. Placing dual silicone rings on each tube will improve the sound of those tubes 100%, closer to a nice pair of NOS Siemans or Philips (not as good, but a lot closer). Luckily my phono pre and pre-amp have only subminiature tubes with nearly vibration free glass envelopes (suitable for bomb use). |
How would a Mat of the types under discussion affect a CDT that works as the PS Audio Perfect Wave CDT works with a CD Content Storage that uses its Memory to deliver the CD's Data. Well that's the marketing blurb out there for the device. Any thoughts on this. I would assume the Perfect Wave CDT is lending itself to the proposed method of ripping to NVME via a DVD Burner. |
"
I have since found that the Walker Talisman demagnetizer to be a superior and elegant product to use on every disc, CD and LP, with obvious benefit to every CD I play. Sure, it over $200 for a pair of magnets but " $11 a pair https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B073W6HHJ8?aaxitk=FDjB7qmkNEPR2VWAIiCeIQ&pd_rd_i=B073W6HHJ8&pf_rd_p=44fc3e0f-4b9e-4ed8-b33b-363a7257163d&hsa_cr_id=8611109060401&sb-ci-n=productDescription&sb-ci-v=Strong%20Neodymium%20Bar%20Magnets%20(2%20Pack)%20-%20Powerful%2C%20Rectangular%20Rare%20Earth%20Magnets%20-%20N45%20Industrial%20Strength%20NdFeB%20Block%20Magnet%20Set%20for%20Misti%2C%20DIY%2C%20Crafts%20-%203%E2%80%9D%20x%201%2F2%22%20x%201%2F8%22&sb-ci-a=B073W6HHJ8 Does anyone have any experience or opinion on weather a black hole would improve a player that has already been treated for damping and disc vibration? |
There is almost zero increased rotational mass with those teeny tiny doughnut style dampers like Black Hole and fo.Q CD Stabilizer since all the mass, such as it is, is located at the very center of the spinning CD. My Mystery Tweak, by contrast, which extends from the spindle hole outward to near the outer edge has extremely low mass so it doesn’t affect rotational dynamics, is much stiffer than those itty bitty doughnuts. That way the CD laser beam doesn’t go crazy trying to stay in the nano scale data spiral whilst the CD is flopping around in there. |
I used several CD mats for years. Upgrading power cords rendered them useless; in fact, they degraded the sound. What I commend, without reservations, is Purist Audio Design's Luminist System Enhancer, a disc that cleans up your system much as cleaning your PC's hard drive results in far better performance. On the pricey side ($200) but worth it in spades. |
I've used four different CD rings including a green and
black Marigo. The Herbie's use results are the same in my system as in
Robert and Frank's. Diminished musicality, reduced dynamics and
compressed sound. Not good. However, I have an alternative use for
the black hole. I use it around the center spindle of my VPI TNT VI with
superplatter. It slightly lifts the label area to good effect with the VPI
heavyweight to provide a better VTA for standard LPs (140mm and thinner).
It's probably due to the VPI platter's slight indentation slope towards the
spindle area. |
I had a problem for the last week accessing only the forums I tried to post in. The moderator answered today and said she had no problem in Chrome. I just found out using I.E. that all my posts and updates were available. I don't know why my Chrome isn't working for only the sites I posted to and not the others. Sorry for the repeated posts. |
fleschler ... Hi, Steve ... Try to set some time aside and come up to hear the system. Also, Robert tells me your new listening room is really ... really good. Frank |
Doing one thing does not make a whole. You must do multiple treatments to the CD and to the player/etc. to really hear what is on the disc. Sand the outer and inner edge to get rid of the reflections. You must black the edges and the entire top of the disc with flat black opaque paint marker to further stop the laser reflections. You must use Digital Solutions fluid on the CD.....top and bottom (seriously increases resolution). You must demagetize or de static the disc when you play it (effect only lasts about 10 minutes and then you have to do it again....but without destaticing/demagnetizing it sound seriously veiled. Then the choice of mats.....then you must not have a toslink digital out in your player or any other LEDs.....and then there is the feet under the player and the stand it is on and the power cord and then you have to mod the crap out of the player/DAC to really hear what is going on. Every single thing has to be done......which included Perfect Path Technology stuff all over. Everything has to be done or you are just playing with one filter and adjusting the sound to your system.....even is you do many, many things you still have differences that you have to sort through.....this is not a fixed nor simple nor easy game. Years ago when we were first sanding and greening the discs a friend had a stock NEC CD player and said that sanding and greening made the CDs sound dull and lacking air. I told him that was because he was listening to the player stock (stock the player had no air or detail). Once you mod the crap out of the player (which is what I did to the same player that was my reference) then sanding and greening just reduce high frequency distortion and there is no loss of air. One thing by itself is just one thing. This game is crazy complicated. For sure, do as much tweaking as you can and tune it to your system and taste. But if you just use a mat without doing a million other things then you do not know what the possibilities are. Using JUST a mat will not show you what is on the CD......you must tweak and tweak and tweak some more.......the PPT stuff, I just discovered.....oh my God! It never ends. there is always more. We are divine eternal infinite love and joy......but what the heck is infinite? We have to keep ever expanding our love and joy to even get a glimpse. Same with Audio....it is infinite....can you keep expanding what you know and experience?. |
Greening the CD only affects about 25% of the scattered light, I’m afraid. The visible red portion. As I’ve mentioned, oh, about a hundred times, the scattered laser light is primarily invisible. Colors do not affect invisible light. Black doesn’t either. I did not invent reality. More uh, stringent methods are required to get rid of the other 75%. Evil laughter! 🤡 |
What I am saying is that any one tweak will not get you there.....no matter what colors you like. Just talked to another one of my friends and he likes his Herbies better than his $200 Marigo mat on his modded Oppo 105 used as transport into modded LKS DAC. It could be that different mats will have different results on different transports. The modded Oppo has constrained layer material on the CD clamp and blacking on the tray and blacking all around the laser assembly....all improve the sound. |
ricevs ... I'm using a modified Pioneer Elite DVD player with upgraded caps to play my CD's now. I have taken the lid off and completely pasted the inside of the player with PPT's Total Contact, including the entire underside of the lid. It has PPT's Omega E Mats sitting underneath it and PPT's Alpha Cards on top. The stock feet have been removed, being replaced with Herbie's Tenderfeet. The ICs were built by Von Gaylord. It is Von Gaylord's "Legend" series. The power cord is an SR Level III that is plugged into a tricked-out Sound Application power conditioner that has been completely pasted on the inside with PPT's Total Contact, including the entire underside of the lid. The power conditioner is plugged into receptacles that have been treated with TC as well. I use a simple, cheap eyeglass cleaner (Walmart under $4.00) to clean the CDs prior to playing them using a micro-fiber cloth ... and then zap them with an old Radio Shack VCR demagnetizer. This DVD player, with all of the above options, just kicks butt. Frank |
Frank, Fantastigoric! I think that is a new word...he he I bet you have incredible sound. Our mutual friend Mas has told me of the transformation of your system by adding the PPT stuff. If you seriously modded the player you would have mucho better sound (I am not volunteering) and as good as Herbies feet are, there are mucho better footers.......but, as usual, system matching. You need to try the Digital Solutions CD treatment, sanding and blacking the discs and hopefully the platform your player is on is serious.....I use a combo of bamboo and maple (maple on top) with 4 small inner tubes underneath.....on top is Mad Scientist feet. I hardwire 2 feet of custom balanced cable right out of the modded Oppo and then directly into my dual mono amps (I do have an xlr connector there). Speaker wires hardwired from amp to speakers......no LEDs, only one super fuse. all cables off the floor (an absolute must)..so much left to do....so little time. Feel free to contact me/call me....would be fun to talk. Tweaking is the way! Ric |
ricevs ... Mas and I have had some really good listening sessions at my place. He's a super guy who has a critical ear. I'm looking forward to his next visit. The "platform" the player sits on is a custom rack, made up of three layers of plywood, with dampening material between each layer. The rack is spiked through the carpet to the floor. It was one of my first "tweaks" in the attempt to reduce/eliminate micro-vibrations. You can see the rack on my equipment page. Frank |
Very nice, Please try lifting the speaker cables (and all cables) off the floor....you can even use cardboard risers....that is what I use. If one of my cables (interconnect, speaker, power or ground) touches the floor for one inch it ruins the sound. Get rid of binding posts on speaker, remove the xover and mount it externally on damped shelf behind the speaker and mod the crap out of it...oh yeah! Felt around the mid and high frequency drivers on the speaker. Always more to do! |
ricevs... I forgot to mention that the modified DVD player I'm using has had one of the new Synergistic Research ORANGE fuses installed with outstanding results. Highly recommended. Frank |
I’d opine suspending cables and power cords is better than lifting them because suspending them kills two birds with one stone - Static electric field and seismic vibration. That was also the idea behind Enid Lumley’s Cable Tunnels of yore. At CES 97 Mapleshade and I suspended all cables and cords with a thread and a rubber band. Hey, that could be the title of a song! It’s also a good idea to hose down the carpet with industrial strength anti- static spray every once in while. Better safe than sorry. |
ieales ... Yep, that was my take too ... until I started experimenting with tweaks myself. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- jetter ...
It was a secret held tightly by Enid and HP ... They were orange. |
Whoa, Daddy! Didn’t see that before! The Mother lode! https://positive-feedback.com/Issue37/belt.htm https://positive-feedback.com/Issue36/belt2.htm |
