Saki70, you've received good advice from some of the posts above. Running the two dedicated 20 amp circuits will be the biggest gain for you. Installation choices that will enhancing those dedicated circuits would include:
..Use 10 gauge wire
..Make the leap to using an isolated ground in your wiring (which means using the hospital grade connector that will not self-ground when installed in a metal box, and 4-wire cable with a ground wire -- I think the current color-coding standard is for that type cable to be manufactured in a green sheathing)
..Get both dedicated cables run to the same phase of your electrical panel, if you can. And try to put them on the other phase from heavy-duty motors and compressors: often easier said than done.
..Use non-plated all brass receptacles, as Rcrump suggests. Hubbell makes a non-plated all-brass hospital grade receptacle, but I can't find the part number right now. Pass and Seymour may have something comparable. Definitely try to stay away from nickel plated parts.
Or use one of the receptacles from: Jena Labs or Walker Audio or Albert Porter (if he still has any, often referred to here as "Porterport", a cryo'd Hubbell). The Jena Labs and Walker Audio receptacles are special production runs by Hubbell using their 30-watt chassis for heavier gauge internal parts, no steel and no plating, configured as a 20-watt receptacle, then cryo'd like Albert's. Other people will have had experience with other "audiophile" receptacles, but these would be my recommendation.
..Get some SST silver contact enhancer from Walker Audio for your electrician to use on all the connections in the circuit. Your electrician will be familiar with electrician's paste: explain that this is just a much higher grade, higher quality paste (which it is, by a huge margin). Then also use it on your power cords, interconnects and speaker cables. Try it on you main system and I think you'll be amazed at the improvement.
This is a summary coming from my experience; it's worked well here.
. |
WOW !!!
So can anyone respond to my post of 11-12-04 ?
Is the isolated ground system a decent path to take ?
I didn't mean to stir-up a hornets nest !! |
Psychicanimal, it's little rude to tell somebody to shut up in the public forum.
Those of you who heard a difference with power cords, good for you. Those who have not, also good for you. I for one am with Irvrobinson but I do replace the stock power cords of all my equipment with some cheap but decent ones. My system certainly looks more *complete* with the cords. Sound-wise Irvrobinson maybe you're right it's in my head. Oh well who cares. The cords look impressive anyway.
Irvrobinson, keep up your postings as I find them quite informative. |
Robin, as Albert already pointed out, electrical/electronics knowledge is not needed for assembling a musical system. Again, shut up and listen. Get a cryo'ed outlet, install it and fasten your seat belt... |
Other than plating there isn't a heck of a lot of difference between hospital grade and commercial grade outlets even as respects pricing. Material used is normally 688 brass for either the Hubbell or the Pass & Seymour so get the ones that are easiest to obtain and look for the heaviest duty ones in the respective catalog. Also look for no steel parts as some have clamps that are steel.......You can take it a further step by looking into silver plated outlets that are available through ACME and others as these do focus a bit better than their unplated P&S counterparts........Cool thing about outlets is they are cheap in the scheme of audiophile things and you might like the ACME or the fancy Hubbell that Albert sells or a combination of the two or perhaps some other outlet mentioned above as they all sound a bit different from each other.... |
Rushton! Welcome to the down-with-knowledge-fest! So let me guess, you don't know anything about electricity, electronics or psychoacoustics either?
I'm sorry, but I still don't understand. Perhaps you can educate me. Forget about electrical outlets for just a second. They're too simple for argument. Lets go with power cords. So one can measure a 60Hz AC current at a certain voltage level coming into the cord at the male end of the plug, and there's exactly the same 60Hz AC current at the exact same voltage (within .1 volts, or a loss of less than 1 part in a 1000) coming out the other end. The AC power is about to go into a transformer to be stepped down in voltage by a bunch, and then rectified to DC. Then it flows into a rank of capacitors that meter it out to a couple of amplification stages. Oh yeah, that transformer has a bunch of inches of wire in it. And then there's a bunch of feet of wire in the wall, before you even get to the power cord. Don't these wires make the power cord a little moot? Now tell me again how the power cord affects the sound of the amplifier's output? I must be missing something... can you help? |
Albertporter, how can one be so righteous about a *lack* of knowledge? I can understand a distain for engineering and science in a field like oil painting, or maybe even making musical instruments, but in a field like audio equipment, which wouldn't even exist without science and engineering??? Do you have any idea how silly that sounds?
Ya know what, I haven't had this much fun in a debate since some kid tried to convince me a grounding kit added a bunch of horsepower to his Honda. |
Albert, good to have you back posting again. Always lively. And I AGREE WITH EVERYTHING YOU'VE SAID IN THIS THREAD. Sorry I didn't read it earlier.
. |
Now I suppose you're going to tell me that if I got rid of the, ahem, non-audiophile interconnects and speaker cables I could hear the difference when I switched power cables (which I just did a few months ago). Certainly my friend David thought so. If you agree with him I recommend a BS in Physics. I don't know if you would benefit from a superior power cable or not, regardless of your choice of interconnect and speakers cables. Your quality standards and system performance are both unknown to me. As already mentioned, you can have all the right names for gear and still not get excellent performance. Manufacturers prove that every January at CES. If you listened with the dozen or so members of my audio group you would have no choice but to drop the BS about the BS. Your Physics degree (if you have one) is no more valuable in evolving a sound system than an engineering or business degree would be. In fact, I would trust the member of my group with a Grammy award on his fireplace mantle, a trained classical musician who knows nothing about Physics. He listened to Purist power cables and invested in them the next day. The source he choose for the audition was one of his master tapes. |
Albertporter, my system is definitely not up to the task of letting me hear the difference between power outlets, or power cables for that matter. Nonetheless, as a previous poster insinuated, it isn't from Radio Shack either. A Levinson 39 feeds a Sony TA-E1 over a foot of balanced Blue Jeans, which feeds twin Levinson 334 amps over 45 feet of balanced Cobalt Cables, biamping a pair of Legacy Focus over about 4ft of 10awg Sound King zip cord with WBT bananas and some spades I can't remember the brand of. The power cables I described in a previous post. :) Now I suppose you're going to tell me that if I got rid of the, ahem, non-audiophile interconnects and speaker cables I could hear the difference when I switched power cables (which I just did a few months ago). Certainly my friend David thought so. If you agree with him I recommend a BS in Physics. (Advanced degrees are probably unnecessary for understanding simple stuff like audio electronics and audio frequency signal propagation.)
There are some puzzling things about this system. First, I think the ML39 sounds better feeding the Sony than it does in pre-amp mode feeding the 334's directly. It shouldn't, but I was convinced enough that it does that I bought the pre-amp. It might have something to do with the 334's having a lower than spec (100Kohm) input impedance at some frequencies, combined with whatever effects 45ft of balanced line has, but the truth is I don't know. I don't even know if the effect is real, but it seems that way. An ML32 sounded just as good as the Sony, but I wasn't paying that kind of green for a pre-amp. It was way cool though...
Then there's that bi-amping thing. What's up with that? Normally, I think bi-amping is a waste of good amplifier hardware, especially in the class of the 334. And especially considering the Focus is worth about 95db/2.83v or better (Legacy says 98db, but I'm not sure I believe them). Anyway, I try the 334's and, whoa, mucho effortless sound compared to a 335 (twice the power of a 334) or my old pair of KMA-100mk-II's. Why would that be? Well, I don't know. I suspect a bunch of reasons, but I can't prove any of them so it ain't worth discussing. Nonetheless, I bought the 334's and I've been happy ever since. So even I'm not immune to (probably) deluding myself, but at least this stuff is active circuitry in the signal path.
I'd also be willing to admit that I might be hearing differences that aren't there, and that I just may have chosen to bi-amp because it looks cool. (It does.) Every once in a while I use only one amp just to convince myself bi-amping is still better, and, funny, it always works! :) |
The sound is hard to measure objectively, but the electrical signal, or the difference between two signals, is capable of unambiguous and precise measurement. Which results in only the measurement, not what it will sound like. By the way, I corrected your misspelling of the word "unambigious" for clarity. I don't believe we know how to measure everything we hear. I am not saying it cannot be measured "someday" but not right now. I came to this conclusion after listening to thousands of pieces of equipment and reading the advertised and measured specifications. A perfect example of science not imitating art is the ongoing project to measure every parameter of a Stradivarius, even down to the aging of the varnish. The goal is to build a perfect modern version. So far it has failed. We are unable to recreate what was done because (current) precise measurements of all the parts does not reveal everything we need to know. Rather than argue that a power cord can't work, how about hooking up one and giving it a listen? I have tweaks in my system that are the absolute best available and cost $5.00 or $10.00, unfortunately I also discover some that cost a great deal more. Either way, I use what works and care little about the claims or specifications except as information. A perfect example is the Kenwood amp I linked to. 1000 watts and lower distortion than any amp I own. I would bet money it sucks in my system. |
Albertporter...
Please do not pronounce that one who has scientific training and experience is not also capable of creative thought and artistry. Remember Leonardo Da Vinci?
You still do not grasp that I am not talking about specs on an amp. I am talking about the electrical signal that ends up applied to the speaker from whatever amp you like.
If you apply an identical signal to the speaker, will it not sound the same? So if the electrical signal is the same for two power cords, is it not reasonable to say that the resulting sound is the same? The sound is hard to measure objectively, but the electrical signal, or the difference between two signals, is capable of unambigious and precise measurement. |
Eldartford. Do you agree that if the electrical signal is identical, the sound is identical? NO, I do not. If that were the case this would be a better amp than I have. Much better specifications than my Air Tight ATM-3. http://www.dealtime.com/xPF-Kenwood_KAC_8151D |
Your opinions are as valid as the next but they are misguided.
I grow tired of people with scientific background that think that all things audio can be explained with graphs and numbers. I am an artist by trade and only care about getting the music right.
The advantage I have is an open mind and I am not afraid to experiment. I am also not ashamed when my opinions prove wrong. All that matters is getting my system closer to the original event.
Some equipment that is supposed to be superior (and may even have better numbers), prove not to be in the real world. Some things that should not be important, matter a great deal.
Reminds me of my days in automobile racing where someone shows up with a machine with all "the right parts" and gets his clock cleaned by some kid with a home built and tweaked engine.
If you cannot hear power cords or outlets, your system is simply not up to the task.
Should travel bring you to the Dallas, Ft. Worth area I can show you clearly with a single demo on my amplifiers. One pair of power cords from Dominus to stock and it will be clear for you. It's simply not up for discussion in my system.
I suppose you can take some joy in not having to spend the money. |
Albertporter...Measuring tube characteristics is not the same thing as measuring the audio signal applied to a speaker. Note that I talked only about the electrical signal applied to the speaker. Parameters that are defined and measured for tubes (and other components also) are intended to identify faulty items, or to monitor production quality, not to cover every characteristic that might affect sonic quality in some relatively small way. The speaker can only respond to the applied electrical signal. If the sound changes it must be the result of a change in the electrical signal. Do you agree that if the electrical signal is identical, the sound is identical? |
Sonofnorway, or whatever you're a son of... :)
How are outlets different than a power cord? An outlet is just a female version of a power plug. Get it? And the power cord, how is that different than the wire in the wall? If this question can't be answered this discussion is moot.
I remember reading somewhere that some fellow that produced "high-end" power cables was asked essentially the same questions I'm asking. His response was that the outlet or the power cord was just like a nozzle on a hose, and the water just like electrons. So, in his mind, outlets, plugs, and wires has just as much effect on electrical current as a nozzle has on the flow of water. Once I got done laughing I thought that, in a way, that could be vaguely true, if the outlet or the plug contained a potentiometer. But none of them do, so I started laughing again. I think it was in Stereophile, and I bet Atkinson printed it as a joke. |
Albertporter, I'm not sure how to respond... I think I have a concept of the importance of every part of a high-end system. I just have a different perspective than you do.
I have to admit, though, I have been out of touch with a certain segment of the high-end community. This segment includes people that think power cords have to be broken-in, and even believe that the wall outlet makes a difference. I won't put too fine a point on it. I think people with these beliefs are misguided, and I think they give audiophiles a bad name. And, no, I don't think it's my mission to police the audiophile world, I'm just having fun in a discussion about the undiscussable. |
So, you mean to say you think your statement is correct? If they were real changes in the electrical signals going to the speakers, they could be measured, and they would have a technically identified cause. And if your answer is yes, how do you explain the fact that a half dozen NOS tubes that measure identical (electrically), sound completely different? It appears you are saying, if it can't be measured it cannot be audible. I think you know better than that. As for Irvrobinson, he may be like some that have already passed this way and are now gone, those that came to Audiogon to argue without any concept of the importance of every part in a high end system. |
Albertporter...Come now: you know that two audiophiles will never agree completely. My comment of 11/14 sums up my opinion. |
Now there's scientific observation and conclusion at its finest:
I have new outlets.
I tried different power cords and didn't hear a difference.
Therefore, different outlets can't make a difference. |
Eldartford, does that mean you agree with Irvrobinson? |
Tbg...In keeping with your suggestion to make observations, I went outside and looked around. I observe that the earth is flat. |
Tbg, lighten up. I once read about the scientific method, and it did include something about observation, but I think that meant *valid* observation. Listening for differences without a double-blind environment is not considered scientifically valid, so let's get off of our scientific high horse. But DBTs aside, I still don't understand how outlets could affect the sound of an audio system, and no one here can explain. I have a rudimentary knowledge of electronics and I can't explain how it could possibly be that two outlets of similar specifications make a "night and day" difference.
One could reasonably complain that I haven't changed my outlets, so how would I know if they made a difference? Well, my outlets are brand new (as is the whole house), and I did change the power cords and did not notice any difference in sound. Not even a little bit. Is there a difference between outlets and power cords? How could there be? Of course, I wasn't expecting to hear a difference, so maybe THAT'S why I didn't. I wonder if I've stumbled upon the real answer... |
Boa2, this discussion started out, for me, to see if I could keep the original poster from being taken in by you snake-oil salespeople. After that I was simply surprised by the fervor of the counterattack, and the discussion became fun. I'm being told to shut up, go away, and I'm being rather humorously insulted.
By the way, you are confusing my contention that *power cables* and outlets can't affect the sound (as compared to properly functioning and spec'd alternatives) with a blanket statement that all cables can't affect the sound of a system. Interconnects and speaker cables can provably affect a system's sound, though usually if they are incorrectly engineered. If you use 22AWG or smaller speaker cables, interconnects with overly high capacitance, or numerous other situations I can think of off the top of my head, there will likely be audible artifacts. This is because THESE CABLES ARE IN THE AUDIO SIGNAL PATH. See how that works?
On the other hand you would be correct if you assume I don't think there are audible differences between two cables - of any sort - with the same specifications. |
Psychicanimal, stop telling me to shut up. Observation must be tempered by understanding, or you don't know what you're looking at. In this case, the very notion that something outside of the signal path can have such subtle effects on the signal path is a long stretch at best. When that something outside of the signal path, that has no active circuitry, and has identical measured specs to something you claim is inferior, that's snake-oil, pure and simple. That's lousy science. Circuitry ain't like aquatic systems because you can't observe it, you have to measure it. And for the record, it does not appear you know anything about electronics. |
It's startling that with a dash of theorical science in hand, the self-proclaimed experts of power are also signing their own degrees in psychology.
So you think it's bogus, snake-oil, a waste of money. So what? Go ahead and use a piece of yarn for an interconnect. Who cares? You think people are idiots for deluding themselves with the belief that one cable sounds better than another? What skin is it off your back? A simple 'Good for you' would be enough. Just what is the point of beating someone else into the ground over an issue that has already been settled for you? |
Irvrobinson, this palm reader would call you a flat earther, who totally ignore all the observations that suggest the earth is round. Given what you say I would again say you are not and would not know the scientific method if it bit you.
It is you, sir, who have psyched yourself into not believing your ears. Enjoy your Radio Shack system. |
Robin, the basic activity of science is *observation*. In this case, *hearing*. Shut up and listen to the music. Nobody has to explain you nothing. For years scientists thought Liebig's law of the minumum held. Not so in aquatic ecosystems. When I go to the field I *observe* first, then use my instruments and analyze the data. That's how it works.
For the record, I am a scientist, a beta tester for a few small audio companies and a keen observer of women's phenotipe makeups.
With psychic power, primal intensity and boogie factor, |
"Trust your ears"?
Have you never experienced an optical illusion? What makes you think that the sense of hearing is not subject to being fooled. I do believe that people (well some of them) hear various sonic effects when wires are changed, or the like. It's just that I believe that these sensations, which may be very real, stem from psychological factors. If they were real changes in the electrical signals going to the speakers, they could be measured, and they would have a technically identified cause. |
Psychic... I don't have to shut up. If you can't take the heat go away. Buy another $99 outlet or something. Throw pixie dust on your speakers. Paint your CD edges green. Take a pill. Get a shrink. Tell the moderator to throw me off. Maybe he or she can explain to me how an outlet changes soundstage. |
Tobias... run the test yourself man. Jeez. Go for it. Report your results. 20% faster would require a 20% increase in power transfer. Maybe UHF was testing against a 30AWG power cord. |
Tbg... excuse me? I wouldn't know science if it bit me? And you're arguing that something outside of the signal path, that has no measurable differences whatsoever compared to another fully functioning device of the same type, can have subtle effects on things like soundstaging? Give me a break! That's like being called unscientific by a palm reader. |
Jeffreybehr, this is simply not the case. You can wish it into your perceptions, but you can't wish it into reality. How can you tell the difference between what you hear and what you think you hear? I've got pretty good hearing, but I've been fooled before into thinking there are differences that really aren't there. Some things are physically impossible. |
Metralla, outlets are not in the signal path. There is no way anyone I know of can explain how something outside of the signal path could have the effects you and others describe. It smacks of quantum entanglement, but that ain't at work here. :) Electricity is not a mystery. Not even a little bit. |
Nrchy, I can't explain it other than you wanted to hear a difference. Aftermarket power cords, cables, outlets, and other stuff, does look and feel good. Look at Audioquest cables. Perhaps the greatest snake-oil per dollar of any high-end product, yet they are physically very, very nice stuff. Electrically, total BS. But I can see where someone could allow themselves to think they made a difference just because they are so cool looking.
My point is only that power-related stuff is outside of the signal path. It can't make the differences some people think they do, as compared to properly functioning alternatives. There's no more voltage going down the wire, noise isolation makes no difference, and the contact resistance is no lower than what they sell at Home Depot. They can't make more power or cleaner power. If you want that there's AC regeneration (like in some Levinson amps) or Varacs and other power line filtering / voltage leveling components. But even those only keep the power clean and steady, they aren't in the signal path.
Fighting one's own false perceptions is sometimes the toughest battle. |
Ivr writes: Now look, frankly I wouldn't have wasted my time with this discussion, but telling someone that electrical outlets affect the "sonic signature" of a stereo system is just so much nonsense I couldn't stand it. There is no need to measure the effect of outlets on sound because they can't have the effects being described here. If that is one's experience, then it's not nonsense. I changed outlets three times and could hear the difference each time. I could also hear changes as these receptacles broke in a bit - and sometimes they took a while. You are predisposed into thinking that outlets can't make a difference. I can understand that, as I found it hard to believe myself. But, gee, it's simple and cheap to try with something like a Pass and Seymour 5242. Even if there were no sonic benefit from one outlet over another, the act of cutting off the existing Romex, stripping it to expose fresh copper, having new contacts that press tighter on the blades of the power cord plug and so on is all good stuff, and could be expected to have an effect. Regards, |
Irv, at the risk of boring you senile, I will relate my own expereince. I stopped reading Stereophile, and more or less dropped off the Audiophile wagon when they started talking about Powercords improving the sound of a system. I bought into the whole speaker wire and interconnect making a difference, but now they had crossed the line between reason and nonsense!
Many years later I received an offer to subscribe to Stereophile again for about $12. I thought, at that price even if they were still crazy, I could justify the expense by finding one or two good articles over the course of the year.
I was surprised to hear that years later they were still going on about PCs. I was still skeptical, but I marched down to my local HiFi supplier and bought a cheap Transparent Audio PC. It was $100 which at the time was a fair precentage of my entire Stereo investment. I placed the cord on my pre-amp and fired everything up.
I was fully prepared to yell "Ha, I told you lying idiots that this was all foolishness and you are stupid if you think anyone in their right mind will fall for this!" loud enough that the guys at Stereophile would hear me all the way from Wisconsin.
That was not to be my expereince. The cord made the pre-amp, and dare I say it, the whole system sound better. I have since replaced all my PCs with a DIY recipe, but along the way I bought a couple of PS Audio (if I were in the market again I would get Porter Ports) outlets. I was again skeptical, but the difference was audible.
If there anyone who should not have heard a difference it would be the adject skeptic. How do you explain my expereince? |
Feel free to choose your own line of reasoning, but the only truth I answer to in audio is the one informed by my own two ears.
And that is my final answer, Regis. |
I second Psychicanimal about Irvrobinson. He would not know science if it bit him, yet he pretends to be authoritative. |
Don't read this folks, it's a rant.
Audiophilia is prime territory for quacks and snake oil salesmen. We all know it. We can all get taken in. So what?
A lot of us got taken in by the promise of the CD: perfect sound forever, they said. There were lots of reasons why. There was no argument, whether common-sense or scientific, to say why CD sound at the time of its introduction was worse, not better, than high-end analog. So we sold our LP collections for a song. Analog diehards snapped them up, at the price of being called flat-earthers.
But as an audiophile buddy of mine said, who cares? Why should "perfect sound forever" have made any of us sell off our LPs?
There are and have been plenty of other audio manias around. Balanced connections, optical digital, switch mode power supplies. I'm about to test Steve Nugent's contention that a 1.5 meter digital interconnect sounds better than one meter of the same wire. He has a technical explanation but I am going to let my ears make the decision. Hey, why not, if I have the extra cable and the connectors at hand?
I like well-built stuff. I can feel or see the difference in the construction quality of a high-grade plug, and I can hear the difference a good power cord makes. If it makes any difference to anyone, I have compared a standard 3-dollar molded cord, to a Wireworld Stratus homebuilt, to an Ernest Meunier (Subaruguru) PC13 Kit, to an Ensemble Powerflux, all on my Klyne SK-5A preamp, and I chose on the basis of the best sound I could afford.
I could hear the difference when I switched my system's AC wire and I was rather surprised. I was not fooling myself, it was not some itty bitty change. Music was clearer and more detailed, just easier to hear. I guess that some kind of interference had been eliminated, and I presume it was RF because the new cable was designed to deal with RF and I live in a high-RF neighbourhood. But I cannot tell you that I really do know why the darn wire made a difference. It just did. That matters to me, and I am willing to share my very small experience with Saki70. Who cares if there is no measurable difference between the old wire and the new?
I am not going to say I heard a difference with good power receptacles. All I know about them is that I have dollar ones at my cottage and they are a hazard. Plugs fall out of them. The fridge shuts down while I'm away for 2 weeks and I have to clean up the mess when I get back. Wobbly connections mean lights flicker on and off and the stereo spits. I have got to replace all of them. I am mad at the guy who used them.
Just on principle, I use good AC plugs in my sound system. That is common sense. I am taking care of something I value. It doesn't cost a whole lot to do it. I suppose one day I could try a cheap plug, or a different plug, and listen for a different sonic signature, but right now I just don't want to bother.
UHF magazine boils their water faster these days. I don't suppose it's any cheaper--I don't think any unused watts get thrown in the trash--but they get their coffee 20 per cent quicker in the morning. It's worth it to them.
Oh heck , maybe I got the number wrong. Maybe it's only 10 per cent quicker.
But who cares? |
Irv, EVERY change in equipment creates a change in the resulting sound, whether YOU can hear it. For instance, decades ago I laughed when my 'golden-eared' buddy talked about elevating speakercables from the carpet. Later in a single-blind test, my jaw dropped when I opened my eyes to see him holding the 2 cables off the ground after I had heard a substantial improvement in the sound...and I'M NOT the G-E audiophile, I'm the generally-tinned-eared audiofool (and I imagine you'd agree with at least the last part. :-) ).
EVERY change makes a difference. Most of them, most of us can't hear. But that doesn't mean there's no difference and that doesn't mean SOMEONE isn't hearing it.
But of course all of this doesn't mean that some of us at some time aren't deluding ourselves into hearing a change that doesn't really exist. That's why each of us has to be careful and methodical about these kinds of changes.
. |
Dude, shut up--you don't know what you're saying. Enough.
Telling apart a Venezuelan from a Puerto Rican or Cuban waitress is *much* harder unless they speak with their respective accents. BTW, I just went to this Latin American buffet in Kissimmee and the waitresses were Venezuelan...*mature* waitresses, that is. TWL, take note. Got to tell their age by their hands, gums and elbows. They seem to age well!
The Psychic has spoken. |
Now look, frankly I wouldn't have wasted my time with this discussion, but telling someone that electrical outlets affect the "sonic signature" of a stereo system is just so much nonsense I couldn't stand it. There is no need to measure the effect of outlets on sound because they can't have the effects being described here. You are assuming that processes you are ignorant of can have effects you wish for. There are many, many things that can effect the sound of an audio system, but different properly functioning electrical outlets are not one of them. I don't think I'm going out on a limb at all by saying there will be no new science in this area. Ever.
And by the way, this discussion was not sophomoric. I asked why anyone thought an outlet could affect the sound of an audio system and I didn't get one response. All of the responses essentially said "it just does". I just hope the original poster has the common sense not to listen to this baloney. |
Boa2 was made the most helpful response to a lot of the sophomoric statements made so far. Irv, scientific theory is proven by expereince, not more theory. Just because you don't know how to measure something doesn't mean it is not true. Electricity is not nearly as simple as might be suggested. I doubt that the last one hundred years taught us everything there is to know of this science.
A scientific proof is one that is observable and repeatable. Which of those has been demonstrated here?
I think you should buy enough Porter Ports to redo your entire house. Albert needs to do some tube rolling in his Aesthetix! |
Hi Saki70, the thing is just to make sure that both hot (black) and neutral (white) sides of your dedicated line are truly independent, all the way from your system outlets back to the circuit breakers at the point where the electrical service enters the house.
My dedicated line was installed at the same time as other parts of the house were rewired. The electrician set up a central bus connection for neutral on the first floor. Nothing odd there, since the breaker box is on the second floor and it made connections easier for him. But the sound system is on the first floor. He ran the sound system's hot wire directly back to the breaker, but he only ran the neutral back to the first floor bus.
The problem then was that the bus connection was shared by all the ground floor circuits, so my system line was no longer entirely independent. Any noise on the neutral wire was shared. It made having a dedicated line sort of pointless.
The electrician had assumed that the reason I wanted a dedicated line was to keep the whole 15 amps of service on that circuit available to the sound system and nothing else. He didn't understand that the most important reason for having the dedicated line was to isolate the system from noise generated by sources in the house like the refrigerator, the computers and the washing machine.
To make the isolation point even more clearly, I'll mention that when I replaced the standard 3-conductor, plastic-insulated 12 gauge wire in the dedicated line with Belden 83802 double-shielded (to cut radio-frequency noise pickup), the background noise level dropped even more. My ears liked that a lot.
I got my Belden wire from the Subaruguru (Ernie Meunier), here at Audiogon. |
Hospital Grade recept's have nylon faceplates for durability. They have increased plug pullout specs per UL standards - they grip like a heart attack.
Spec Grade, Commercial Grade are ad words with no standards to compare them. However, they are *all* much better than the trash "contractor" or "builder", sub $1.00, items sold unboxed at the home center. They have screw connectors instead of the trash stab-in connections. I've replaced all my switches and receptacles w/ Leviton Spec grade (FIM's on the A/V outlets). The remaining 50% of the equation is to torque the connections per mfgr. specification -- NEC and UL required. It's impossible to guess at this. And to clean the receptacle terminals prior, since they're dirty right out of the box. |
Eldartford;
What I was refering to, was the use of the insulation on
the third wire as a means of insulating against possible stray interference from outside forces, maybe not totally but of some use as compared to the bare ground. The green tape was to identify it as a ground wire should anyone else
get in there.
Tobias;
Please excuse my ignorance, but what did you have to have redone with the neutral wire ? What was the procedure ?
Is that the same as a seperate ground ? Did it require further equipment ? |
Getting back to the original post, I hate hospital grade wall plugs. Their only purpose is to not spark when cords are unplugged. They are not as conductive and sound terrible. I have bags of them.
On the question of whether wall plugs sound different, I will say try them. If you hear a difference, ignore those who say you cannot. You are not delusional; they are. |
Search the archives for posts on power by Lak and Psychicanimal. You'll find ideas that go a good way beyond what you have planned, but if isolation is important to you, you might be happy to know about them.
One key point for me was the return or neutral (white) connection. When the electrician installed my dedicated line, he ran a separate hot wire from the breaker box for it but connected the neutral to a common bus. The isolation was only partial and I had to have it redone. |
Saki70..There isn't any shielded conductor in common 12/3 wire used in houses. What makes you think that green tape will stop "interference" better than bare wire? (Have you tried red tape?) Why not use the bare ground wire? This conductor carries no current except for leakage resulting from a fault in the neutral (white) wire. A safety issue.
Quality outlets are desirable because the elcheapo ones wear out and the contacts get loose. If the contacts get loose, so that the plug tends to fall out, then you do have a problem. |
