What is the difference ? Is it really worth ten times the price to get hospital grade receptacles ? Why ? Is one brand really superior to another? Is Pass & Seymore a good brand ? Hubble better ? I am setting up a closet to house my mid-fi gear and will be running two dedicated 20A. lines to run the 2-channel audio and the home entertainment equipment. I will have two double (2 duplex receptacles) on each 20A circuit. Thank you in advance.
It seems that this thread has wandered from a discussion on receptacles to a general discussion on power cables and whether they actually change audio quality.
So, here's my anecdote. A couple of years ago I bought a Wadia 301, and the seller threw in an Acoustic Zen Tsunami power cord instead of the stock cord. I was not a believer in power cords being able to make a difference, because, as has been pointed out, they are not in the signal path, but I used the Tsunami because "it was there."
I eventually sold the 301, but kept the Tsunami, and got a Wadia 861 w/ GNSC's Statement upgrade. Again, I used the tsunami because "it was there."
After a few months, I bought a new rack for my equipment, and after setting everything up, I listened to some CDs, and immediately noticed the sound quality was thinner, there was little bass impact, the soundstage was a bit unfocused. I thought that I made a huge mistake with my rack "upgrade." After fiddling with all sorts of things, I noticed that I had swapped the power cords on the Wadia and my phono stage, so that the Tsunami was not on the Wadia.
I figured that I'd swap it back, since nothing else was helping. Lo and behold, the Wadia came back to life with all the depth and air and focus that it had before.
I did not believe in power cord differences, and was not looking for power cord differences....In fact I did not even realize I had changed power cords at first, but just knew something had screwed up my sound. But, I discoverd that having a better power cord on the Wadia does in fact make a difference.
I can't explain why....but I can tell you the difference is not subtle.
After reading this thread (I actually read every single one of them) I felt compelled to make my first Audiogon forum post. This is taken from an article in Stereophile in a review of the Infinity Prelude MTS speaker system. I believe it applies because you have a very technical guy and an experiece guy look at the same set of speakers. Also, the experience guy heard something that couldn't be measured in the 70s, but he ended up being right. Just an interesting article in light of this thread. The funny thing is that the section of the review is actually titled the below introduction.
Do I Want My Myths Shattered? You may ask why, after a day of heavy pummeling by Floyd Toolea CDloving scientist who relies strongly on measurements, who cuts mystics and observational reviewers no slack, and whose research proves that when we can see what we are about to hear, we form hopelessly prejudicial responses I still wanted to review these speakers. You also may ask why hed want them reviewed by someone like meor by any observational reviewer, for that matter. Actually, he may not, given some of the disparaging things hes written about nonscientific, casual reviewing in his published research. There may be a single answer to both questions: In discussing the bass-equalization feature, Toole admitted that attempts at this made in the 1970s yielded great measurements but, according to the golden-eared, bad bass. And guess what? The ears were right. The observational types heard things that the primitive measuring devices of the time couldnt. Todays gear showsand Toole showed usthat 1⁄3-octave equalization mutilated bass performance in ways that were then unmeasurable but clearly audible. So if I didnt like the sound of these near-perfectmeasuring loudspeakers, I had an out: I was hearing things not yet measurable.
The review went on to say how much the reviewer loved these speakers. Anyway, I have a question now.
Which cables are the best to use? I have heard alot about Purist Audio but what about Cardas or the BPT cables?
Also, are Wattgates that much better compared to the Hubbell outlets? They are about 3 times the price. Just curious about thoughts on all of this.
An update to my set-up; I had to change the electrical cable from a two wire (12/2) to a three wire (12/3) to facilitate the correct installation of the isolated ground system. This was needed even with use of plastic boxes in the wall for the receptacles. I would also like to mention that a seperate isolated ground bar (plastic) is required in the electrical panel, hooked-up to its own ground rod. This made the system totally seperate from the rest of the house's system. Or so I have been told . Just as a hedge against obsoletion, I also changed from 12 guage cable to 10 guage cable. So now I am running 10/3 with ground from the breaker box to the outlets. Two dedicated runs, each operating two H.S. grade isolated ground duplex 20A. receptacles. The change in cable necessitated an expenditure almost 4 fold, from about $27.00 to just over $110.00 ! I was actually able to purchase a roll 250ft. long for about the same price as having two 60 ft. pieces cut from the spool at Home Depot ! Exactly the same wire from the same manufacturer. Make sense ? It is supposed to be hooked-up next tuesday. Again, thank you to all who contributed information to my cause. This is a great forum !
first.excuse my grammar because english is not my natural language,but after going through this thread,i couldnt help myself but to jump in and sharea little of my own opinion.I am an EE for HP for the last 15 yrs designing hi-end server micro-processor.i do have my MS in EE,so i do know a bit about electrical signal.when i first start out this hobby,i think it crazy when people can hear the difference in cable and IC,because on theory ,there is no difference,but i have an openmind to keep trying out all diff cables to see if my ear can pick up the differences.Now,3 years has gone by and i still cant hear the difference,but i do not doubt any one who can,because there are more then just a few that swear that they can.I dont think those people are stupid enough to spend thousand of dollars on something that they cant tell the different.what i am trying to say for mr IRV and Eldartford is,comming from the same electronic background like you two,i understand where you are comming from,but dont you think there might be 1 day that technology will come up with something that might be able to measure the differences in cables that only certain person with gifted hearing to pick up those signals??..just my opinion.
Eldartford, that explanation is a fraction of what occurs when electricity passes through wire. In fact, I think next to proper gauge for the conductor, possibly the most important thing is the insulation.
Insulation can store energy and release it in non linear ways and various layers between the conductor (and outer jacket we see) can have a huge effect on sound.
A perfect example is Purist Audio power cables, which I am so fond of. The conductor is approximately 10 gauge and constructed with a mix of metals that have proven to provide excellent results.
My argument is NOT that Purist Audio's mix of metals is so proprietary that Audioquest or Shunyata (or whoever) cannot duplicate it, but rather the shielding, grounding and isolation from vibration, EMI and RF are of equal or greater importance.
Most of the time plugging in such a cable results in a blacker background with a more relaxed presentation and improved textures and resolution.
To understand this, you need to view the power cable as PART OF THE POWER SUPPLY rather than an extension of the Romex in the wall.
If you assume your AC power is perfect and your power supply in your stereo gear is immune to EVERY POSSIBLE contamination, then possibly the power cord will have less effect. However, there is still the issue of vibration.
For that reason, there is more than one audiophile manufacturer that addresses that problem in the construction of their power cables.
The energy drawn through the wires moves the wire vibrating it. A perfect example is caused by strobe lighting used in my photo business. The capacitors in the power packs sometimes causes the walls of buildings to "talk" back every time a burst of energy is drawn.
This power draw through the conduit is powerful enough to "bang" the conduit against the wall. I have had this happen hundreds of times over the last 30 years, even in high rise commercial properties.
In the last ten years I have seen almost no situations where a premium power cord did not help the equipment it was plugged into. Differences in design from manufacturer certainly provide an array of results, some of which I find desirable and some I do not.
To say that they effect in no way is absurd. In fact I hear differences between different brands of male wall plugs. Most often this manifests itself as tonal balance changes but sometimes as distortion. I assume this has to do with conductivity, vibration, and clamping action.
It's all important and cannot be measured with a volt ohm meter or resistance specifications.
Among scientists and laymen alike, there are those who make discoveries that explode universal beliefs, while others spend every breath to cement 'unquestionable truths'.
To those who have stopped questioning, I ask, "What happened?" Because none of is born with a resistance to exploration. Not in ANY field of understanding.
What is impure science? Those will misstate their position as more scientific don't know science. It is a catchword like calling someone a communist. I must say that I really don't care what the pseudo scientists crowd says and continue to delude myself with my sound system.
Contrary to some here, Robin, I don't really care if you hear a difference (or not), If your wife does (or not) or if you buy these things (or not). Your mentality is messed up so you'll be like those guys that theorize belt drive TTs sound better.
I've seen the face of a friend like you change as I replaced the stock power cord in his CD player for a cryo'ed Absolute Power Cord.
This thread is a very entertaining read, I have to say. However, I think some people may be getting confused here. This whole thing about "music" cannot be explained by science. We are talking about RE-CREATING pre-recorded music through audio equipment here, not creating original music. It is pure science and nothing else.
Tbg, I have no intention of buying a power cord. My wife wanted to see if she could hear a difference. She knows I think she's wasting her time, but she read some of the high-emotion responses to my posts and wants to hear for herself. Local dealers are willing to lend out cables, and I'll just take them up on offers they make anytime I go shopping. It's no big deal.
Like the quote said, put on your thinking cap. And, like Albert, take a reading lesson, then read the posts. I think differences in power cables and outlets, cryo'd or not, are an illusion, and nothing posted here - NOTHING - has changed my mind a bit. I've experimented and heard nothing, and that's because there's no difference to hear. I'm indulging my wife's curiosity, nothing else.
Is this the same Irvrobinson who said, "Don't waste too much money on powercord-related stuff. Save your money for better speakers, acoustical treatments, amps, and source components (probably in that order). Those are the things that make a difference. Use your head and reason, don't just read advertising and bogus magazine reviews. How could an outlet provide such a superior connection that water boiled 20% faster? That's poppycock. Put on your thinking cap."
Hdm...I don't think that it is valid to compare a 115 vac wiring change with the Underwood mod to the Denon player. The mod involves replacement of a lot of active circuitry, and it is entirely to be expected (on a purely scientific basis) that the sound characteristics will change, for the better we hope.
When I tested the cryo'd outlet I put on my objective experimenter's hat. Believe me it would have been much more interesting if the test results had come out the other way. If anything, I was biased towards hearing an effect.
I second Tvad. Quality power cords on amps are low-priority in my experience--that is, if the amp already has something that's not the 18-gauge 3-dollar molded kind. Players, then preamps benefit most, and in that order.
If you have separates, the DAC would usually come before the transport in the lineup. However when I had my old Cambridge Discmagic / Isomagic pair, the transport's cord turned out to make more difference than the DAC's.
This thread has gotten pretty boring. I also noticed a few of my responses are missing. (Sorry, Albert. I know you look so forward to them.)
Frankly, I'm going to miss you guys. One thing that might interest you though, my wife, a relatively accomplished musician, wants me to demo some power cables for her. She wants to see what all of the fuss is about. So I'm going to talk to some dealers and see if I can get a couple loaners for the amps. We're not going to be home together for a few weeks, so this'll take a while. But if I can get the loaners I'll post and let you know what she thinks. When we do the test I'll blindfold her so at least she won't know what she's listening to. It ain't double-blind, but we can't have my skeptical looks influencing her.
To anyone who claims that I'm hearing only what I want to hear, I assure you that this is not the case. Because what I really want to hear is a $59.95 boombox that sounds like my $9K stereo. And I want my $800 power cord to sound the same as the $60 version that I was previously using. That way, I would save a lot of money to get the same sound. Unfortunately, my plans were foiled.
Regardless of what I want to see, taste, hear or feel, I simply cannot get Top Ramen to taste like sushi, or get my '99 Altima to drive as well as my wife's new Volvo wagon. If I could, I'd have a lot more money in the bank. But I like nice things, and as a professional musician for over a decade, I developed quite an addiction to good sound. Therefore, the $800 PC stays.
Eldartford: Let's really take a hard look at what's going on here in this and all the similar threads like this that inevitably break down this way.
I'll give you credit: you took the scientific road and tested out the receptacles I sent to you and heard no difference. Just as easily as you say above: "When the dog barks the guy hears something else, because he wants to.", I can say to you that you heard no difference because you wanted to hear no difference. So what? You heard no difference in your "highly controlled" receptacle experiment, but you can send your Denon 2900 away for mods because, from an "engineering standpoint", the mods make sense to you (search your comments in the archives) and you can receive it back 2-3 weeks later and notice an improvement? The only logical conclusions I can draw are that 1) you are afflicted with the same disease you accuse those of hearing differences in receptacles and/or power cords because they "want to" or conversely "don't want to" or 2) that your hearing is not particularly great.
Now let's be "scientific" about it. Of the people that respond to these threads, those that have tried/experimented with power cords/receptacles, etc. and have heard differences probably outnumber those that have tried/experimented and heard no differences by ten to one or more in these threads. Not conclusive, but certainly a reasonable sampling by any scientific standard, as Narchy has so succinctly pointed out above.
On the other hand, the naysayers seem to exist in an inverse proportion to those with experience: that is to say, approximately 90% of them have absolutely no experience in experimenting, yet they have no qualms about doling out their definitive advice to people here seeking input. Irvrobinson is simply one example of that, extolling that there are no differences in "measurement" when there clearly are, then admitting, when pressed, that he has never done any measuring. As someone who has learned a great deal from the experience of others on this site (and Audioasylum as well) and managed to greatly improve my system and the appreciation for the music played on it as a result of that improvement, I feel compelled to respond to these threads every once in a while.
As to "wanting to hear things" to justify expenditures, as I have pointed out before, I don't belong to that camp. While certain people here may find it amusing, I have gone from a $1000 digital front end in the past 3-4 years to one which I have approximately $70 invested in (it has been cryoed, by the way) and sounds much better than the audiophile approved megabuck version which I was quite happy to sell. More money does not always equate with better sound, but ignoring power cords, receptacles, cabling, etc. is a sure way to not realize what any decent equipment is really capable of.
You and Irv are certainly welcome to respond, but I'll sign off on this thread at this time. Happy listening and enjoy the music!
This "hobby" of ours can certainly be mysterious. I still remember the first set of speaker cables I tried to replace my zip cord. I was skeptical! Both were the same guage, which I thought was the MOST important thing but the comparison between the two cables was NO CONTEST. I bought the better cables. A few years later I was interested in an upsampler for my DAC. "Jitter" was the buzzword at the time and lower was considered better. Audio Alchemy had just come out with the DTI-PRO (not the Pro32). I worked at an AV store at the time and when one was shipped to us I begged to take it home and try it out in my system. They let me and I fell in love with what it did for the sound. I remember many a "spec" person later telling me I had to be smoking crack in preferring the sound with the DTI-PRO in the chain because of the HUGE amount of jitter it flooded to the DAC. While I understood the argument, I didn't experience the "negative" impact on the sound others believed I should hear. I though it was a huge improvement! A couple of years ago I posted (or added to one) that I swore my system sounds better in the winter than the summer! Is it less humidity in the air (I'm inside)? Is there less power being consumed and that is somehow effecting the power to my house? Good eggnog? There will always be those who want to know why things are and those that appereciate what is. They are not mutually exclusive but too often the emphasis is placed on one or the other. The last "poll" of the american public showed more than 80% of the population believed in God. Not bad considering God can't be "measured".
Has anyone ever actually listened to a high end system in a hospital ? Those long marble halls must have great acoustics.
Your right about the marble halls Darryl.
Unknown to many folks, the song made famous by Elvis Presley "Hound Dog" was recorded at Graceland Nursing Center in Memphis while doing a benefit gig for the old folks.
The halls provided the desired amount of echo and is evidence of the first crying and talking dog .
You aint nothin but a hound dog Cryin all the time. You aint nothin but a hound dog Cryin all the time. Well, you aint never caught a rabbit And you aint no friend of mine.
When they said you was high classed, Well, that was just a lie. When they said you was high classed, Well, that was just a lie. You aint never caught a rabbit And you aint no friend of mine.
Elvis may have passed on, but the truth about talking dogs and excellence of aftermarket power cords lives on (unless you unplug them and set a Physics book on top of them).
Albertporter...When the dog barks the guy hears something else, because he wants to. He is happy. So am I with my dog who doesn't need human speach to communicate.
Nrchy, you are right, of course, but Quant...does not want to be confronted by the facts. His argument is curious though as he argues that most things don't matter but that balanced does.
Quantumavman you obviously have not paid any attention to anything that has been said up till now. I have grabbed several physics books and they offer nothing to the subject being discussed.
Any power cable will do mister. Grab a physics book if you dare! What IS imporpartant and should be considered is a balanced transformer/AC conditioner. Most of the big recording studios and mastering labs use them. I do too. No hocus pokus here. These devices (ie: Equitech 5Q) WILL make a significant sonic difference. Much better soundstage, better transient/dynamic response, and much tighter, accurate bass. Garbabe in;Garbage out. No BS sir.
Of course you should believe him. Didn't you see the "Buena Vista Kennel Club"? I distinctly remember hearing that pup scat off of Ry Cooder's guitar picking. I really think your friend is being too modest about his furry friend's list of formidable talents.
Has anyone ever actually listened to a high end system in a hospital ? Those long marble halls must have great accoustics. In fact next time Im in a hospital, Im gonna rip me off an outlet !
know a guy who claims that his dog can talk. He has all the nitty gritty details...the dog speaks Spanish, and with a Cuban accent, and often quotes poetry. The damn dog just barks at me, but the guy swears it's true. Should I believe him?
If dozens of people hear the dog on multiple occasions over a period of a decade, yes. Here is a perfect example.
A guy sees a sign "Talking Dog for Sale." He rings the door bell and the owner tells him the dog is in the back yard. The guy goes into the back yard and sees a mutt sitting there.
"You talk?" he asks.
"Yep, that's me," the mutt replies.
"So, what's your story?"
The dog looks up and says, "Well, I discovered my gift pretty young and I wanted to help the government, so I told the CIA about my talent, and in no time they had me jetting from country to country, sitting in rooms with spies and world leaders, because no one figured a dog would be eavesdropping. I was one of their most valuable spies eight years running.
I couldn't tell you how many wars I helped prevent. But, the jetting around really tired me out, and I knew I wasn't getting any younger and I wanted to settle down. So I signed up for a job at the airport to do some undercover security work, mostly wandering near suspicious characters and listening in. I uncovered some incredible dealings there ... and was awarded a batch of medals. Had a wife, a mess of puppies, and now I'm just retired."
The guy is amazed. He goes into the house and asks the owner what he wants for the dog. "Ten bucks and he's yours," the owner says.
"But this dog is amazing!" the guy exclaims. "Why on earth are you selling him and why so cheap?"
"He's such a liar, he never did any of those things."
I know a guy who claims that his dog can talk. He has all the nitty gritty details...the dog speaks Spanish, and with a Cuban accent, and often quotes poetry. The damn dog just barks at me, but the guy swears it's true. Should I believe him?
I really love it when you guys slam Raul! Raul, I like you but you clearly have pissed these guys off. My system sounds better, when I use a trick I saw in a movie. I pass the signal through my body. (No lethal currents please!)It gives the sytem a life like three dimensional feel. I can also fine tune the sound by drinking a fine grade of cognac.
Irv, for someone who hides behind a curtain of science (pay no attention to the man behind the curtain) and has distain((???) do you mean disdain) for anyone who who uses the scientific means of proving something, you certainly are critical of science. As I pointed out the scientific method of proof, is one which is observable, and repeatable. No, I am not a scientist, but I did get A's and B's in two years of college physics.
The ability to measure results has nothing to do with their validity. Albert is right when he points out that there are things around us every day that everyone accepts without question that cannot be measured or even understood.
The strangest thing about science, and people who claim to be conversant in scientific theory is that people who are doing 'cutting edge' research are far less dogmatic about any scientific theory than thier less knowledgable counterparts in the educational or business world.
If Albert and thousands of others have conducted the scientific experiment of replacing PC's, outlets, and/or cables and expereinced an observable, and repeated result, whose, experience has greater validity? The one who lectures from the lab table, or the one who conducted the experiment, and observed the results.
Tubegroover, that's a damned good question! The answer is that I haven't seen (or heard) any compelling evidence that my assertion is wrong. If you boil it down far enough, what we think we "know" about the universe and the way it operates exists only because we hypothesize about the way the universe works, and then we devise tests that either prove or disprove our guesses. For some physical phenomena the guesses do change over time a little bit. Sometimes a lot, but not often. I blame it all on Einstein for so famously changing some guesses made by Newton in such a big way, because it gave people the impression, I think, that other guesses we've made are subject to just as much change. That our understanding is somehow superficial. That might be true in quantum physics, certainly so in some areas of biology, but electricity is a lot different.
Not that electricity and electromagnetism are so simple. A friend of mine specializes in electromagnetic interference effects for multi-gigahertz electronics, and the math he uses is formidable. There's also a lot judgement involved sometimes in product development that makes laymen wonder about "understanding". For example, high-volume production circuit boards are typcially made from a material called "FR-4". It's green, fiberglass, and it's cheap. If you look inside of your PC you'll see a lot of it. Anyway, 10 years ago some of the best analog electrical engineers were of the opinion that for signals with a clock frequency of greater than 500MHz we just might have to drop FR-4, and go to more expensive materials like teflon (due to noise levels, among other things). Anyway, 10 years later we're still using FR-4 for signals well into the multi-gigahertz range. The engineers recommending teflon back then were "wrong". Was this due to a lack of understanding? Did we learn new things about electricity since then?
No, to both questions. Engineers learned more about developing what are called "design rules", that more stringently specified high-speed circuitry to function on FR-4. More was learned about how to manage noise and EMI in physical designs. The engineers were actually correct, using the old rules. So now we have cheap multi-gigahertz circuitry, and nothing I'm aware of was learned about electrical theory. Much was learned about how to engineer products, but it's the same theories, proven over and over again, thousands of times per day, by observations called ultra-precise measurements under controlled conditions. We know how electricity functions because everytime we properly construct a given scenario it works EXACTLY as predicted. Every time.
Do I KNOW that two properly functioning and spec'd power cords are not going to sound audibly different? Anyone who has studied philosophy understands that KNOW is a heavyweight word. I don't KNOW. But if there were audible differences the physical effects that caused the audible differences - that we can't currently explain -would surely show up as anomalies in other areas where low-level currents or signals are incredibly important. (They are not in 120v AC power.) Microchip design, test equipment, 10GHz bit-serial signalling on copper cables... somewhere. And nothing has been detected. Sometimes you need really, really clean power, but you use active devices to achieve it. Our ears are not sensitive devices compared to certain test equipment. Some people don't want to believe it, but it is true.
Irv, let me ask you this, does our knowledge of how electrical circuits work define how music sounds in a given system? Are you absolutely positively certain that our current knowledge of electricity would preclude any possibility that what some of us hear is little more that plecebo with reference to outlets and powercords, would filters or any type of wiring configuration in power cords make a difference, or is this just plain impossible?
I have overall enjoyed your responses but in no way can agree with your conclusions that there is no possibility that what some of us are hearing is nothing more than self-induced, my personal experiences are emphatically sure of this, as sure as you are but for very different reasons. Is this a religious argument, believers vs non based on current evidence (science) or "faith through truth in what I hear". Are you that damn certain that you're right?
Eldartford., I wish it were so. My system is the culmination of years of investing, selling and trading. Much of what I have would not be possible had I not done photography for many of the high end audio manufacturers.
As for outlets, I have avoided comments on that topic and you know why. Lets just say that each must make up their own mind on that subject.
Eldartford, I hope you do not think it is me saying that you can't make sense if you don't have scientific training. My message is that if you think you are observing phenomena that run counter to well-proven knowledge and understanding you should check your premises. In this case, people are claiming to hear differences between power cords and outlets, when they measure identically with proven parameters (I emphasize the proven part), are not in the audio signal path, and there's no known way they can affect the audio signal in anything except a very indirect manner. And then they assume that because they think they hear a difference, that somehow that proves that humanity's understanding of how electrical circuits work is incomplete. I have a problem with that. I don't think scientific training is an issue, I just think that if you can't understand how some technical knowledge applies formal training can't hurt.
My closed mind did not prevent me from making a careful comparison of cryo'd vs uncryo'd outlets. I neither heard not measured any difference. Too bad, because, as some have mentioned, the cost is relatively small.
Don't deny that you are rich! If you weren't the cost of your system would be enough evidence to have you committed.
Tobias, I love Montreal, and I wish I got there more often. The closest I usually get is Toronto (yet another awesome Canadian city - but Montreal is more fun IMO), otherwise I would enjoy taking you up on your offer. Hearing other peoples' systems is always interesting, but hearing other peoples' MUSIC is fascinating. I've developed so many new interests by listening with others. Especially since I have a tendency to spend too much time with Beethoven, Mozart, and Schubert, left to my own devices.
I agree with you on higher contact pressure being better, and I think I mentioned that once. Good signal transfer is always good, though I've never been able to measure an insertion loss for power cords approaching a tenth of a volt, even on conventional stock outlets. Of course, my homes have always been of rather recent construction.
I think I also mentioned I'm not a fan of participating in double-blind tests. Frankly, I find them tedious, and I'm of the opinion that the annoyance of a DBT tends to mask differences, but that's only an opinion. I like to listen, but if I hear differences that correspond with measurements I'm more inclined to make purchase decisions based on my perceived differences.
I think I'll be able to hang on to my "collective hallucination" notion easily, because I'm convinced I'm a victim myself sometimes. Once I performed a comparative cable test, between 18ga speaker cables and 10ga cables, and I was convinced I heard an improvement from the 10ga cables. Then I got up and found I had switched the cables improperly (I was distracted by a friend) and I was listening to the 18ga cables all along. That incident, along with others, taught me a lot about wanting to find a difference. Another reason I can hang on is that I'm having fun. I'm not taking the insults seriously.
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