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How much can be measured -- and how much cannot?

There has been a lot of discussion over the years on Audiogon regarding the measurement of components and other audio products. Some people claim everything is either measurable now or will one day become measurable with more sophisticated measuring equipment. But others say there are things in high end audio that will never me measurable and that measurements are really not that important.

Here is a typical example -- a quote taken from the Stereophile forum regarding their review of the Playback Designs MPS-5:

"JA 2/17/10 Review Measurements of Playback Designs MPS-5
Posted: April 13, 2011 - 8:42am

John Atkinson's 2/17/10 review measurements of the Playback Designs MPS-5 revealed less than stellar technical performance even though Michael Fremer really liked the player. I've included JA's closing measurement remarks below followed by the manufacturer's comments.

To my knowledge there was never any followup in Stereophile regarding the manufacturers reply the MPS-5 could not be adequately measured with traditional measurement techniques.

I believe Stereophile should respond to this reply in the interests of its own measurements credibility.

Len"

How important do you think measurements are? Are the ears really the only true arbiter?
sabai
tbg
5,263 posts
 
Unsound, when measurements were added to reviews I applauded it. However, I have seen little correlation between them. Nor have I heard good measuring components to sound better nor good reviewing components to sound better. Related to this is double blind testing. Having participated in several of these and having read critiques of the use of 30 sec. same/different tests in psychology, I find them invalid.

I really think that components should be sent to a known room where we have made a recording and had the performance digitized. Then we compare that component inserted into a known system whose measurements are known. We would then compare the change noted from both the existing system and the actual recording. The closer to the initial recording the better.

Screw all other measurements.
unsound
7,336 posts
 
TBG, you've already posted that you've found some speaker measurements helpful. I can't help but wonder if upon further examination, you might find some correlation between some other measurements and some sound characteristics.
I like your proposal, very much!
Again, I think dismissing all other measurements would be imprudent.
tbg
5,263 posts
 
Unsound, I can hear frequency response and sense dispersion also. I also think I can hear phase problems in speakers. I cannot recall ever getting such measurements before deciding on a speaker. But I cannot really understand a speaker designer who wouldn't use such measurements. I must say that I have sought and appreciate single driver speaker systems and two way systems.
sabai OP
2,027 posts
 
I find this quote from Kevin Hayes of VAC very interesting:

"We require that all VAC components sound superb and measure at least reasonably well. Careful attention is paid to sound engineering principles, but we recognize that theory is just that."
sabai OP
2,027 posts
 
More from Kevin Hayes of VAC:

"During this time, [voicing for the 70/70 amplifier] small changes in the physical arrangement of the parts were tested, different types of capacitors and wires were auditioned, and even various chassis materials tried. The differences often eluded the linear test bench instrumentation but were plainly audible to the human ear. This often frustrating work and attention to detail is required to bring a design to its peak of performance, and is the deciding factor between mere hi-fi and music."
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