@mrdecibel Good to have you back. +1 for your OP
If a " system " cannot do this, I move on........
I have been advocating on here for some time, that horn speakers ( properly designed, tweeked, executed and set up ) are the only speakers that my brain and ears find acceptable, for the enjoyment of music listening. My listening standard has been live, unamplified music, for now over 50 years. I have also stated on many occasions, that as an audiophile ( as well as being a music listener ), that we are hindered by the recordings themselves, minimizing what we actually are hearing. There has been much talk lately about engineers using " auto tune " ( specifically with vocalists ). Adele ( I am a fan ), with her new hit " Easy On Me ", does not use auto tune, and I am thrilled. Besides being a great singer, she sounds " natural ", less processed. Most recordings in the past 20 years, have used this other electronic " equalization " if you will, that we find embedded in out prescious recordings. The strive for perfection, that " audio nirvana ", we all seek, with the purchase of a new speaker, amplifier, cables, etc., gets us only so far. So yes, dynamics and details are very important to me. Tone, coherence and spatiality are also very important. But the reality is, our recordings, by the time we receive / hear them ( whatever format ), have been severly altered from being close to the real thing. Yet, audiophiles continue to spend big bucks on their gear, their rooms ( their systems ), to get to that place of enjoyment. The title of this thread, " If a system cannot do this, I move on ", has a specific meaning. What I listen for, most of all, with every recording I listen to, is an engagenment between me, and the performers. Following the individual rhythms and musical lines, by the artists, is the number one factor I strive to hear. My system allows for this. My question is : how many of you actually listen for this, or even know what I am speaking of. My personal experience listening to so many high priced systems, has been very disappointing in using this criteria. I am not anticipating this thread to develop into a very large or popular one, but I have not participated in Agon for a while, and I just wanted to shine a light on a subject that is crucial to us and our time listening to music, which some of us spend much time doing. Enjoy, and be well. Always, MrD.
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@david_ten , Thank you my friend, and I am very glad you and your family made it through the rough times that came your way ! |
What I think you're speaking of is what I call immediacy, this is what I'd describe as sense of performers in room. First time I heard this was with my first 845 SET amp some years ago. But it was only after hearing my 845, 300B SET's with stock Klipshcorns this sense was heightened to the point I knew somehow I had to keep Klipshorns.
And so, in spite of sound quality defects I heard with the Klipschorns vs. previous speakers, I proceeded to modify the Klipschorns to my liking. On to today, my Klipschorns deliver this immediacy without prior defects. Other wonderful aspects of my horns (and stock Klipschorns) include extremely high resolution, without this one can't hear that sense of real live performers in room. Microdynamics, also allied to resolution, but which is as much a function of other equipment in system; horns can expose this ability to it's fullest.
Part of what allows this performance is minimalist crossovers in horns, which helps to create high efficiency, which in turn allows minimalist amps such as SET. Much less stands between source and what comes out of speaker.
The above qualities, in concert allow engagement with real live performers in room with every listening session. My horns are the final solution for speakers in my quest for end game system.
Sounds like you're obtaining similar engagement with your horns, you get the magic of horns. |
When boys get toys, they play with them. This is true of recording engineers also. I really like the 60's Motown sound. R&B and others are plagued by Phil Spector's wall of sound. It worked good for AM radio. But it sounds awful on a good system. So this processing is not new. But it has grown in numbers. Iow, there are many new toys for the boys to play with. This is just a small factor |
To expound a bit on listener perspective. Your are there, the sense you're transported to studio or recording venue.
The performers are here, the sense of the studio being brought into your listening room.
The performers are here, the sense of performers actually in your room, not even the studio stands between you and performers. Yes, you hear artifacts of recording venue, but the window has more sense of being non-existent. This is what proper horn setup should create for you.
Well, if all you heard was wall of sound quality with horns, you've never heard a good horn setup. Yes, they can be what Artemus describes, but in sympathetic setup, and with proper mods for some, they do what they do in special way, Proper timbre, tonality, imaging and sound staging are all attainable. They can be subtle and sublime when called for, and they can be edgy, fast, responsive when called for.
Blanket statements should have wet blanket thrown over them. |
@mrdecibel plus one. I know exactly what you are talking about. This is the formula for a good recording. Song writing + talent + producing + engineering + mixing + mastering = a potentially good recording. If one of those elements are missing good luck! |
+1 from me too. Engagement - exactly. When a song moves me to tears or smiles I know I am there. The less processing the better. Never heard Adele live, but I heard Lizz Wright, somewhat in the same vein, worth checking out. I am happy with a pure tube and horn system (playing vinyl mainly). But sometimes I do "wake up" to a good s-state system, like recently - I was amazed how well my friend’s system with Magico speakers managed to reproduced the new remastering of Beatles Let it be, streaming from Qobuz. So, no "blanket" statements. |
@mrdecibel , I believe I follow your train of thought. I am an acoutsic guitar player and listen to a lot of singer/songwriter type of music. The recording is essential. The music should sound like the performer is in my room. It should sound like a "performance" and not necessarily a recording. I do think it's something comes from a bit of system synergy, a lot of trial and error and knowing what you want, and what you want your music to sound like. Happy listening. |
mrdecibel, I generally agree with what you are saying, and your criteria for good sound.
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There is always 2 sonic theaters in competition IN YOUR PERCEPTIVE CONCRETE FIELD when you listen recorded music... The first sonic theater so to speak is related to your room acoustic treatment but also controls or lack of ... The second sonic theater is the "living" original theater created by sound recording engineer microphones choices and locations and trade-off and by the mix engineer after him ... What you listen to, unbeknownst to most, is the addition/competition between these 2 sonic theaters... What many people cannot "hear" or experience or guess, is that save for a "perfect" ideally optimized totally controlled room for some speakers, we listen always to a MIX of these 2 competing acoustic theaters...
The goal is not ONLY to listen ultimately to the original lived recording event which anyway cannot give you anything other than the specific takes of the recording engineer, not the musical original event itself; the audiophile goal is ALSO to give in relation to your specific hearing abilities with a specific speakers pair in YOUR room, an "optimal" musical satisfaction and not ONLY the deceptive acoustical illusion to listen to the main event ... Then the integratation of all acoustic characteristics and cues are not ONLY acoustic means of reproduction of the space locations of the original theater event but also recreation of the "timbre" experience coming not only from digital acoustic recorded cues of the original lived theater but also from the acoustic cues of your room indeed... A small room can never acoustically disapear like a great listening vast concert hall could do it...( For example the positive or negative effects of reverberation time) Then in a small room we deal with 2 different acoustical cues: some written by analog or digital processing from the recording microphones and files or cd and some from the pressure zones from our specfic dynamical acoustic room field ...We adapt one with the other by adapting the Speakers/room /specific ears to our sapecific liking controls at will, with Helmoltz mechanical method mainly in my case....
No room sound the same, and a small controlled room would SEEMS to disapear, but it will never disapear MOST OF THE TIMES, because there is a RECREATION in our room of the recorded event from a translation of a digital/analog/ chain mediated by our acoustic room settings never a REPRODUCTION.... Even if the space of our room could mimic the space of the original recording choices in some case, the "timbre" perception COULD not and could never be the same exact "timbre" that is to say the specific timbre playing during the lived event before or after the recording engineer choices... The reason is simple the violin playing timbre i listen to in my house is not only listened to from a good recorded cd but from a not so optimally controlled room....This violin timbre is then RECREATED not REPRODUCED in our room...It differ....
OPTIMIZING the perception of the first sonic theater with acoustic controls implemented in the second sonic theater is the key.....
Corollary: there exist no perfect room, and if a more perfect room than mine exist like in a vast theater, there is no perfect place, and if the perfect place exist, it exist for specific ears with some trade-off ...And if the concert is recorded there exist no perfect recording anyway...And our room may sometimes positively compensate for the inevitable trade-off in the recording process or impede it greatly...
Then to answer the OP... If your system cannot do this, keep it for a while, and study acoustic and psycho-acoustic before judging your system potential....Move on from audio magazine upgrade reading to acoustic articles studying...It worked for me.... |
And remember that the playing notes "timbre" we listen to, be it recorded or not, is a sum of informations coming from the resonant body of the musical instrument itself , and coming from the musician body strucking it with a dynamical gesture and pression , and ALSO the addition of informations coming from the environmental acoustic cues of the room/theater/ or/and near objects through the playing instrument changing his timbre itself for each specific locations and each interactions with the surrounding objects on the scene... ( think about the echolocalization used by blind people who use this information consciously)... Timbre is a way more complex phenomenon and a way more complex perception event than most people think...
Feel free to correct me...I am not a scientist at all.... Only someone whose hobby is music listening first and sound listening experiments in the last years all ending in a relative great success ...
«A violin never sound like a violin»- Groucho Marx 🤓 «You only repeat Heraclites here brother»-Harpo Marx |
That’s for sure! Your auto-tune example is a good one. Human hearing is exceedingly fine-tuned. There is a character to real live sounds that is impossible to reproduce. That said, there are better and worse ways of doing it. The better ways are all analog, tube, and minimalist. Don’t believe me, listen to a gramophone some time. Nowhere near modern audiophile standards of frequency response, signal to noise, dynamic range or volume, nevertheless uncannily engaging and real. This is why things like auto-tune, tone controls and especially DSP are such an abomination. They mess with the relationships. A singer’s voice for example, the sound you hear is extraordinarily complex. It starts in the vocal cords but the whole respiratory system and chest resonates, the shape of mouth and position of tongue, every last detail has an influence on the total sound we hear. This is what I strive for. One time recently a listener said, "She was smiling. You could tell she was smiling. You could hear it in her voice." I never was so happy or heard a better compliment. |
Good post... You explain well why i prefer the simplicity of mechanical equalization to electronical equalization...One is digital equalization for a microphone with pre-frabricated tone sets the other analog equalization with a real voice timbre bandwidth for ears/speakers/room, and the mechanical equalizer is part of my room/speakers...It is way more than just a useful tool then...It is a permanent addition...
We can ultimately hear a smiling mouth through a "timbre" event...But your system is probably more resolving than mine....😊 I dont pretend to hear that myself i only guess through my present system/room what you spoke about....( I will need a ZOTL amplifier in the years to come i guess) Smiling speech expressions versus more weeping sound characters in speech are audible facts in psycho-acoustic....
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Chuckle at the above... I think the immediacy seekers are drawn to horns for their in-your-face general presentation, at least IMO after a lot of years hearing lots of them. I do agree that some can be great but I tend to walk away from the semi-intense sound myself. I did have electrostats for 16 years (still do) as mains but ultimately moved to high resolution dynamic loudspeakers (with ribbon tweeters though). I get what the O.P. speaks of and enjoy it as well, but I don't need that up front presentatoin to fully enjoy it. |
It would also be nice to see @michaelgreenaudio back on this forum and contributing. |
My other speakers are Merlin VSM-MM, all Duelund VSF caps in BAM and crossover, Texas Component TX2575 z foil resistors, upgrades voltage regulators, blah, blah, blah. Totally different kind of speaker, anything but in your face quality, my Klipschorns no more in your face than the Merlins. The immediacy I'm talking about comes from partnering equipment as much as speakers. Been there with the in your face with my Klipschorns in stock form, metal horns anyone.
I understand horns not for everyone, but continuing blanket statements deserve wet blanket. Quality crossover parts and design tractrix horns manufactured with quality materials such as birch ply, quality drivers, along with sympathetic partnering equipment and room treatments can bring wonderful presentation of performers into one's home. |
I find most horns too forward even if smooth like Fleetwood deville a great example way over priced for a nice cabinet. smooth sound But after awhile I find the row 2-3 perspective a bit stressful after awhile ,some people love it you can tame this with very good capacitors or resistors , which they don't use ,and willnot even show the Xover, Klipsch have very good potential but they too use average at best parts quality ,which I have rebuilt many using top Vh audio, Jupiter, Millflex ,Clarity Duelund you get what you pay for, in Xovers. |
I can only say not all horns created equal, so blanket statements not credible unless all have been heard in one's own system. Yes, they do have this overall gestalt, what I call immediacy, but in your face, not. This immediacy does require extreme attention paid to sound qualities such as timbre, tonality, otherwise in your face sound quality may dominate.
My solution has been diy to a large degree, only my bass bin remains as stock. Many others also have modified their Klipsch horns, plenty of vendors to choose from. which goes to show in stock form they leave something to be desired.
My only contention is horns are capable of NOT having all the liabilities some detractors claim ALL horns have. I'm sure plenty of modded Klpsch and perhaps non-modded Klipsch, and horns from other makers don't have the entirety of liabilities some claim them to have. |
I wish someone would "auto tune" the live DVD's recordings like Eagles @ Melhorne's Farewell Tour. Why that disc is used as everybodys demo I cant figure out... If that damn thing sounds so good WHY cant all the other later bands/studios come up ones just as good.. Cant believe they all fail .. Just don't get it |
Excellent post @mrdecibel |
Hey, this isn't that complicated. If you like horn speakers, that just means you like what they do to the music. I would note that almost no one who listens to music critically for commercial purposes does so on horn speakers. But you do, and are listening for enjoyment, so good for you. They help make the music come alive for you, and that's all that really matters. My main point, however, is this: Don't fool yourself, Whether you are listening to Adele or to any other pop artist, you are always listening to music that has been processed, and bears no relationship to a "room". All pop music is tracked, using multiple takes, and is uniformly EQ'd and compressed, with reverb or delay, and usually with some amount of tweaking of pitch or editing of individual notes and sound waves. Whatever you think you are hearing is there because a sound engineer put it there. The good news is that the emotions of the music and the talent of the performer still shine through. So, enjoy what you hear, just know what you are really hearing.
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@sns1 - you cheater - 845 tube power amp - hard to find something better especially with an horn type speaker. We built a stereo 45 tube amp only 1 watt and used them on the Horning speaker - pure magic even with an Eric Clapton recording. Each speaker does something that the others can't do but that comes down to preference.
Personally, field coil speakers are where it's at in my book!
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I feel you. The more music moves me the more I enjoy it. A quality hifi system delivers these to my ears and body in a way that I either react physically or mentally. If I'm thinking about the resolution of the source , the recording engineer , the interplay of the preamp and power amp (or whatever component) then I'm in my head and not in my body - heart and gut. I either feel it or I don't. It's a personal thing but hey that's music! Build your machine and enjoy your music :-)
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I don't believe it is necessarily efficiency that makes a good horn system sound real(with good material). It's dynamic linearity, level changes from micro to macro that arenot compressed(well minimally compressed). I suspect a good horn system or high efficiency system has a head start here but it's not exclusively due to high efficiency. After all 10% is super high efficiency and most of the input still goes into heating up the voice coil even with high efficiency. So I guess I'm partially agreeing with you but believe there are other ways to do it also. |
I have expectations from a performance, whether live or recorded that is secondary for me. That consideration is: genuine, deep, human interpretation, where the musicians take me from the mundane to a special place of their own purpose. Also, I expect the stereo system to be HONEST. If the original performance was not capable of achieving it, I don't want the recording to manufacture an artificial illusion to keep me addicted to something that steers me away from reality. |
Great post. Horns plus tubes equals bliss (to me). Once I heard this combination I knew I was done looking for a system that works with the music I like. Some people are audiophiles because of the cool gear. Some people are audiophiles because of the music. I think some people are listening to the gear and not the music. Listen with your ears and not an oscilloscope.
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Hey, this isn't that complicated. If you like horn speakers, that just means you like what they do to the music. I would note that almost no one who listens to music critically for commercial purposes does so on horn speakers. But you do, and are listening for enjoyment, so good for you. They help make the music come alive for you, and that's all that really matters. My main point, however, is this: Don't fool yourself, Whether you are listening to Adele or to any other pop artist, you are always listening to music that has been processed, and bears no relationship to a "room". All pop music is tracked, using multiple takes, and is uniformly EQ'd and compressed, with reverb or delay, and usually with some amount of tweaking of pitch or editing of individual notes and sound waves. Whatever you think you are hearing is there because a sound engineer put it there. The good news is that the emotions of the music and the talent of the performer still shine through. So, enjoy what you hear, just know what you are really hearing.
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Hey everyone. I appreciate everyone’s comments, positive and negative, as well as my return to Agon, posting. As we all know, anyone on this site, is surely adimant about certain things related to this hobby. I do not judge the preference that folks have ( there was a time I did, when I consulted in helping people build a better system suited to their " tastes " ). Are horns up front and in your face ? Not in my room. They do have a dispersion characteristic that minimises side room bounderay reflections, at least with me and my system. Their dynamics brings out much that is lost due to the recordings ( again the staple of our hobby ), and I appreciate that, especially coming from my live musical background, so shoot me for that. Adele not being talented ? Really ? You might not like her music, but come on people. I also love Sarah Vaughn, Billie Holiday, Barbara Steisand, Krall, Barber, and hundreds of others, so shoot me, again. If someone is using mini monitors, and they feel they are getting the most out of their music listening....I am thrilled for them. The entire point of this hobby, and my post, is getting to that point of enjoying our music, without ever thinking about what is missing from the experience, as so many do, leading to the upgrade bug. On another thread a while back, I had mentioned the recordings by the genius of Tony Minasian of Tonian Labs, stating that if all recordings sounded this way, we would not need to spend a fortune on gear to compensate for what is not there ( the Sheffield mention was a good point of a great recording ). But, I cannot only listen to SOTA recordings, because my listening pallette would be empty of so much enjoyment. I never said Adele’s recording are great....but I do feel her voice and vocal talents are. Are some people not understanding that it is the " talent " of our favorite musicians, that makes this hobby what it is. A band I have loved forever is Jethro Tull. Recordings are poor, but the MUSIC is wonderful, exciting, a joy for me to listen to. I know many people who could not listen to this band on their systems, because technically, the engineering is not up to snuff. That is their loss, imo. There are many posters on this thread that get what I am saying, but a few are still lost, based on my understanding of their words. So again, Enjoy, and be well. Until my next post....Always, MrD. |
@mrdecibel, Nice description of what many of us heard as teenagers when our listening preferences were being formed. The sound of Altec and Klipsch horn speakers in the 1970s is what did it for me. As many have pointed out, Klipsch speakers in particular really benefit from upgrading their stock capacitors. They have also made some improvements in their Heritage line over the years. However, I can’t say I like the sound of their “modern” tower speakers vs. their old school designs. Again, personal preference, but even they have proven not all horn speakers are created equal. Recently, I finished a modified Altec Model 19 project giving the 416A woofer its own reinforced cabinet and tried new and old compression drivers and horns to find the most enjoyable combination. So even if you’re in the horn camp, there are different flavors for your own preference. Trying different capacitors in Zilch’s Z-19 crossover actually surprised me as to how much it could change the sonics of the speakers, for good or bad vs. what I was looking for. (But this is for any speaker, not just horns, though they tend to reveal the differences more.) But it’s not just the electronic altering of the recording that engineers use to get a certain sound, it starts with how the room is setup acoustically with room treatments. I would suggest that horn speakers are more in need of proper acoustic room treatments to sound their best, especially in reflections points between the speaker and listener. Engineers also affect the sound with the instrument or vocalist’s position in relationship to the microphone. Given the horn’s by-design directed sound distribution, their placement in the room and to the listening position, especially toe-in, also seem to alter their sound more than all-cone speakers. That said, I’ve heard capable horn speakers sound bad when the room, placement, etc., is not set up correctly. I’d even say they can be made to sound worse than a non-horn speaker in a poorly prepared listening environment. This could be why some people are anti-horn. So, while horns may need more attention to detail to sound their best, the rewards can be as you described. Thanks for reminding us it’s about enjoying the music. |
Got my speakers. They were horns, cause that's what I had before. These are much better. But when I put them in two years ago, I had lots to do. Get the digital right. Treat the room. Move speakers around. Adjust subs. Still, it wasn't quite there. I got rid of the harshness with the above, but soundstage was flat and I still got that fatigue. Finally, when it happened, it was like the sea had parted. Taller wider deeper soundstage. The notes decaying, visualizing where they recorded the record, hearing individual parts of individual strings plucked. No, these horns don't sound forward to me. I know, you can do this with other speakers, but I like the efficiency, the dynamics, details, So it took me a couple years to wring all of this out of my system. I think I'm there, until I find something else to improve! And thank you, Mr. Decibel, you were one of the ones who welcomed me to this forum and offered suggestions. |
I am not going to sugar coat this. I have spent time on the recording side, the live performance side, and home system side of music. I was asked by my brother to apply my skills and knowledge as an ex aerospace/defense engineer to the recording/playback issue you are describing. There is one problem with my cable designs, it will uncover every inadequacy (or lowest performance item) in a system and I expect the owner to blame me. Therefore I highly suggest only one brand of cable in a system, mixing causes problems. Ray Seda wrote a review in two articles describing this problem of mixing cables. |
Welcome back Mr. D.! I, too, am beholden now to horns. And like you, I'm at a spot where the quality of recording takes things to a special place. That said, unlike, you, I can enjoy a Jethro Tull recording--not picking on you...I've had all sorts of issues with all sorts of systems over the years. I looked at your systems page and I didn't see any components listed. Would you mind sharing? I agree that Adele can really sing and she would never need autotune but for "effect", which is not my taste. I do, however, hold the opinion that some of her records could be recorded and mastered better. Some of her greates songs sound like they are always running full throttle and things get busy/smeary for me--across lots of systems. I think she needs to work with T Bone Burnette. Coincidentally, have you heard Imelda May's album, Life Love Flesh Blood? It's produced by T Bone. If Adele sounded (from a production, engineering and mastering perspective....) like this I'd buy everything and perhaps a Reel to Reel deck to hear it. Sublime. |
