You haven't heard the Acoustic Reality amps yet. I have heard the Evo and the TacT. the TacT is better than the Canto with any music. The eAR betters the TacT in that it can drive any load, and sounds fluid. |
Calanctus, the Tripath Bel Cantos sounded bad on Quad 988s and Jadis Eurhythmies but not too bad on my W/P 7s. The HCA-2 and Spectron Musician II sounded very good on all transducers auditioned and startled me with their performance. For the money I don't think you can beat the Spectron. But for sheer musicality the Radia takes the cake, easily. But I must say that the Quad 988s powered by bridged-mono Hovland Sapphires lit my wick recently as well. |
Khrys, I am the happy owner of a pair of "heils, ESS AMT 1 Towers, that I bought in the 70's. For a while I was "seeking" another pair, here and on ebay. But since ESS is still in business, I bought some speakers direct. I will also be purchasing a pair of their AMT's, so I can build a pair of speakers to bi-amp.
The guys at UHF magazine, after reviewing the Kithara, said that if they were going to build a cost no object speaker system, that they would build it around a heil.
I agree, and I'm going to try, within my budget. Hope this answers your query. Long live Oscar!
Sonny (not my real name either) |
Hey Khrys, would you be so kind as to post more detailed impressions of the class D and T amps you have heard? I'd love to hear them compared to the top notch SS stuff you have auditioned in your home, e.g. in terms of:
-frequency response at extremes
-midrange
-soundstaging
-dynamics
-subjective appeal/'musicality'
-or anything else |
Iseekheils, your moniker is so trippy I have to ask what it connotes. Are you seeking Heils for Hitler or lamenting the demise of the eponymous speaker? Or maybe an odd phonetic rendering of Ezekiel? Whatever the case you should definitely mod your HCA-2s, especially with a tube driver input stage. Then again you could always buy something unheard, hyped, and "factory direct". After all "they're your Euros" as my alliterative Scandinavian associates are so kind to remind us "New Worlders". |
Rgcards, the B&O store here in Pasadena actually already had the Beolab 5s so I was able to audition them, albeit in a smallish showroom fronted by components heavier on form than function. But I was still very impressed much to my surprise and perhaps even chagrin, much like you. My understanding is that they use 4 different class D ICEmodules per speaker each customized for the particular driver to which it is driving. I think that is the future especially when SPDIF/PCM can be transmitted directly to the digitally optimized self powered speaker (so long Nordost Valhallas, thank you very much) converting to analog at the last available juncture. B&O has had the most experience with really well designed class D amps (since 1999) and isn't it interesting that they chose to apply their technology to self-powered speakers rather than free-standing amps.
I've had a chance to listen to several recent class D amps (Bel Canto, PS Audio, Spectron) and I will again say that I was surprised. There is an impressive price/performance ratio here, one that can only be good for the high end: transistors have goaded tubes into never sounding better; CD players have resurrected turntables, now arguably "ne plus ultra" front ends, and I'm sure the first well-executed class D amps will bring the stratospheric pricing of the status quo more into the line of the earthbound.
For what it's worth, the finest SS amps I have auditioned in my home so far have been the Halcro dm 58s, the Classe CAM 350 monoblocs, mono-bridged BEL 1001 MkVs and the Hovland Radia, the latter being my ultimate choice, mostly for my wife who prefers its sound for her remixes as she VJs for the private club scene here. Not to worry, the JA 100s standby, fired up and ready for when she returns seeking solace from the fray. Guess what her favotite amp is? |
Khrys,
Thanks for the info. I had seen something of this natuer before, and I think the info you provided may explain why the EU actually provided some support to this project. Also the electricty usage of big solid state amps is not trivial from a european point of view. I think it is kind of ironic that B& O, a company I do not associate with a timorous image, is actually being kind of circumspect in their promotion of their technology, while eAR has been been hyping it with the most fulsome, and grandiloquent language. One thing is true though, more amps will be using this technology |
Iseekheils, The Enigma does not come balanced. A single eAR 2 will suffice for any load and is balanced. My speakers are very large 1 ohm 76db affairs. The eAR amps also are available in a mono version. the PS sounds good, but is outclassed in sound and build by the eAR.. |
Muralman, I was wondering if you have heard the PS Audio HCA-2, or especially, a modded version? I have an HCA, and have been thinking of mods, or possibly getting an eAR2 or even and eAR Enigma. I would like to try bi-amping my system, and thought that the lesser power models would be sufficient. So, I would need two Enigmas, or another HCA. I would probably get the eAR2 only if I was not going to bi-amp. Also, are the Acoustic Reality amps balanced?
Sonny |
Rgcards, the Bang & Olufsen store here on Colorado Blvd. will be getting the BeoLab 5 speakers soon and I will definitely listen carefully. I suspect class D amplification will find its niche with self-powered speakers and might thus redefine the art.
Btw, if this post does not appear at least three times consecutively then there is something wrong with my "enter" key. |
While I'm assembling my comparisons of available class D amps, a few corrections of the myths already evolving regarding these things are in order, courtesy of my father, a well repected audio engineer for the various recording studios and soundstages here in Los Angeles. Class D circuit topology has been around since 1947. Infinity made an attempt to develop them first in the 70s with Carver and of late Tact Millennium further desecrating their potential. The genre was resurrected by the EU's mandate that power supplies not backwash "hash" onto their 220v system which necessitates class D switching power supplies or major performance restricting filters on conventional power supplies such as those found on most North American amplifiers such as Krell, Audio Research, Classe, Bryston, Theta, Pass Labs, VTL, Boulder, Conrad Johnson, Rowland, Levinson, you know those antiquated slouches. If we can do it to their cars once they achieve certain market share here (smog devices, retractable bumpers, etc) why wouldn't they do it to our amps? I think an American free-ranging Ferrari might have the same effect as European free-ranging Boulder. Who knows?
Whatever the case, the first really listenable class D amp was developed exclusively by Karsten Nielsen of Bang & Olufsen who was allowed to form his own subsidiary called ICEpower. Acoustic Reality had nothing to do with the development, only the hype. And Nielsen himself is embarrassed by the Euro-Hype surrounding his product as he expressed in his candid presentation of its limitations at the Audio Engineering Society Convention in NYC this past October, which I attended. Any rush to get on the "feeding chain" will be determined by the need to serve the EU market. To which Muralman's "Jiffy-Pop" analogy should prove especiably translatable. |
I found a place in Edina Mn. That has the B&O
speaker/amps on the floor for demo. I'll be in
that area in a couple weeks. It will be fun to have a listen. |
You are right. Peter of Acoustic Reality worked on the ICE module for B&O. |
Muralman,
Unless I am mistaken, I believe B&O is actually the manufacturer and designer of these modules. I think the Danish government actually helped finance the research |
Rgcards, your post is right on target. There is going to be a rush for manufacturers to try to get on to the feeding chain. I feel like I am watching a Jiffy Pop pan, and the first kernels have popped. You know what happens next.
The ICE module is perfect for the slim style consciousness of B&O. |
This post is somewhat off the topic so I apologize in advance. I also apologize for my general state of ignorance on this subject but nevertheless...Astonoshingly I recently heard one of the best musical reproductions I have ever experienced at the Bang and Olefsun store in the form of the Beocord 5. This a powered speaker system, but my understanding is that the amps are digital, and that the module that controls the amps is the ICE, which is in fact desogned and manufactured by Band O. Now I have never enjoyed B and O products , and the source used for this system seemed to be designed solely for visual impact, but this was really an amazing sound. The system is 15k but it sounds as if Khrys might be able to afford that kind of price tag. I would listen to them, I would certainly be interested in the reactions of people with "high end"systems to these products. Unfortunately B and O seem to have eschewed the "high value" market for their own application of their technology, but than again I believe there is other proprietary tachnology in these things. I Really was surprised. This could be an excellent showcase of this technology |
True, they are only sold direct. I think it is a poor marketing ploy. This new module wave is in it's infancy. Acoustic Reality had the only ICE powered amp for two years. With proper manufacturing, and a good market strategy, they could have made a killing. Now, more ICE powered amp companies are on the horizon. |
Muralman, your boundless enthusiasm for your amps has me wanting ot explore Class D further. What I've heard in stores has not impressed me so I'm trying to set up some home auditions. I can get my hands on a Spectron Musician II but where do I find the eARs? Is it true they are only sold "factory-direct"? |
Eldartford, you are right. The simplicity and quality afforded by evolving modules ensures cheap thrills. Where were you, when you listened to the well appointed Scintilla? I know that reviewer Ken Kessler, in England, has a pair opitimally set up.
You are also right about the goose bump factor attainable through many avenues. Last week, I listened to Vandersteen 5 speakers fronted by top vinyl and tube gear, and it was very fine. That was a $70,000 system.
I went home to my digital module driven speakers and listened to even better transparency, and bass definition - for far, far less. (I want that turn table gear, though) :-D |
Marakanetz...Digital amps are not all that complicated, in fact all audio amplifier circuitry is rather simple compared with other types of electronics. In practice, all the complexity of the digital amp is in one module that you buy from TriPath or someone else. Add a power supply and FET output devices and you have an amp. That is the great promise of digital technology..superb performance at GREATLY REDUCED COST. |
To my thought I realy always wondered why SET that can be built by high school student may cost more than powerfull SS beast that could drive near anything even including professional studio speakers and not realy do-able by hobbyist?
Full range digital amps are even more complicated than conventional solid state amplifiers. It's much less complicated to build digital bass amp than full range. |
Yeah... antiquated amps???Some food for thought! Somehow, I rather doubt Khrys would trade his Jadis's for "any" digital amps at this juncture. To be candid: I have never heard the Acoustic Reality. I have listened to a few high-end digital amps[no name dropping from me] in a few of the high end shops in my area. None of them grabbed me and said " take me home".I know one thing for certain, The Jadis's will make for an incredible musical experience, "magic" in spades when driving just about any decent modern speaker .Jadis amplification is world class by anybody's measure.That said: I don't believe for a second... that his Jadis's would, or could make that same kind of magic driving scintillas.I have heard the Scintillas on numerous[read too many] occasions with amplification that was just not up to the task.Can't say they ever came close to capturing me ,at least not until that one "magical" evening,when driven by FM Acoustics gear and accompanied by a top shelf phono stage.I would defy "anybody" that is into the recorded arts.....[don't care what you own] to walk away without thinking how great the recorded arts can actually be reproduced in our own rooms. After reading about Khrys's front end,there little doubt in my mind that he gets a lot more than his fair share of goosebumps .Tuning the room and optimizing the equipment in that given room is the "real" art! It really doesn't matter whether its solid state,digital, vacuum tubes[set,OTL,push pull or otherwise], horns, Electrostatics, ,dipoles,vinyl,tape,cd or what have you! I have heard, all of the above sound very very good,however.. I have also heard all of the above sound so horrible they would chase the tone deaf right out of the room! Funny though, how some of these antiquities can command so much more money than the [latest and greatest] current technology when given a year or two in the free market. Ever wonder why? Life is short and we are all destined to become an antique one day! Enjoy the times. Cheers! David |
We all rather hear the real thing.
Khrys, check out the comment of the new eAR owner on the piano thread. You might try one. The eAR can easily power Watt Puppies. |
Muralman, I don't know how you came to interpret my last statement to mean that here is always an advantage to latter production speakers. BTW I certainly do not think there is always an advantage latter production amplifiers either. I've heard remarkably good low and high impedance systems but none can yet truly get the sound of music quite right. That's all I meant really. I am truly glad you have found a combination that evokes so much passion. In fact I'd love to hear it! I never liked SETs until I heard the right setup either. You congratulate Ecclectique for being one of the few people who have heard the Scintilla properly powered. And that is part of the problem: so few of us can hear for ourselves and make our own judgments regarding your claims. I have found that any speaker sounds much better "properly powered". Only most speakers have a greater range of "proper" amplification choices than your Scintillas, allowing for more individual tastes and preferences to be considered (ie row E or H from your listening chair?) Not to mention choice of Pre-Amp. What is the rest of your system besides the eAR and the Scintillas? For the record I'm running koetsu/triplanar/delphi V, Shanling SCD-T200 and MD 108 front ends into an HP 100 to JA 100s to W/P 7s. Just ordered the HP 200 and the Radia however the latter being the most amazing SS amp I have heard at least on the W/P 7s. We are more alike than you may think with my running cutting edge dynamic speaker design with "antiquated" amps and your running quite the opposite. |
Hmm, I remember hearing the Scintillas at the Audible Difference in the 80's. I was impressed with the volume and power, but I remember that when they switched over to the Timpanies that my ears gave a sigh of relief! The voices and music were just...better. At least far more enjoyable.
My wifes comment was that the Apogee was like a brash malt and the Timpany like a fine wine.
At the time they were powered by BIG Mark Levinson Amps.
I was pretty soured on Apogee until I heard the Duetta's at another store 4 years later. Now that was a presentation! I guess set-up is everything.
I have been told that the Spectron Musician II drives the Apogee Scintilla quite well; at least that owner thinks so. |
Thank you very much, Ecclectique. You are one of the only people I know that have heard the Scintilla properly powered. I absolutely thrill at the performance of mine powered by the eAR. On the down side, the 250 watts of my little amp doesn't have the unlimited current the FM Acoustics amps, and I keep the volume down to 90db, short of some live events. I have peeked at higher levels, but the eAR wasn't created to push <1 ohm. I went to the FM site, and came away with more questions than answers. Lacking large heat sinks, these have to be digital module amps, don't they?
Thanks for the tip.
Khyrs,
"To each their own, except for those of us who champion the sound of music in real time."
Meaning there is always an advantage had by latter production speakers? You can go on believing that. There are very few Scintillas to go around anyway. |
Ecclectique (fabulous moniker BTW) of course owners of low impedance speakers will find digital amplification synergistic, much as those with high impedance speakers embrace single ended triodes. To each their own, except for those of us who champion the sound of music in real time. |
Won't get into the politics in this thread.However...I too believe the Scintilla is "without any doubt", the undisputed king of the apogee speaker line-up.Because of their load on a given amplifier,I sincerely doubt many people have ever really heard them at anywhere near their best.When they were first introduced,here in the Toronto area, they were always demo-d with the latest high powered Krell, Mark Levinson,or Classe A gear of the time.Good sound to be sure,but a long way from the live experience. I had the recent pleasure of listening to the Scintilla set up with FM acoustics gear[do not recall models] in an optimized room. They were mesmerizing to say the least...goose bumps galore!Even though I have been a planar speaker fan for more than 30 years, and a devoted "tubie".... the experience was a revelation to me.A new found appreciation for an old speaker.I cannot help but think that present owners of Scintillas must be very excited about the future of this new digital amplification medium we are only beginning to embark on and I am quite certain it will mature at a very brisk pace.We: as music lovers, must applaude these designers that embrace new technology,as they will surely improve upon it. All the best in your endevour. The world would be a very sad place without music. Enjoy. Cheers David |
Unsound, if electricity has replaced the megaphone, i.e., non-electronically amplified sound, then why do we still have concert halls? Must be that "day-to-day" basis thing I guess. You prove Seandtaylor99's point exactly: new technology generally becomes mainstream but seldom displaces its predecessor for the special occasion. Cinema did not kill theatre nor did television supplant movies. No home stereo can bare to compete with LA's new Disney Concert Hall. I will concede however that Class D digital amps could be the perfect complement to incandescent light bulbs and space heaters, though the fluorescent afficionados are already cying foul. |
Khrys, electricity has replaced the winding and the megaphone. For a romantic evening, I'll take the candles and fire. If I had to choose one or the other on a day to day basis, I'll take the space heater and the incandescents. |
Unsound, electricity has not replaced winding megaphonographs at all. It simply has taken over the winding. For a romantic evening would you prefer GEs incandescents with a space heater or some candles and a crackling fire? |
Seantaylor99, electricity seems so have replaced winding megaphone-ographs. Somethings just take more time than others. |
http://users.ece.gatech.edu/~mleach/ece4435/f01/ClassD2.pdf
Great link explaining class D amplifiers. I think the Bryston web site said it best, that class D efficiency will see it replace analog solid state in almost all consumer (read circuit city) electronics, but that valve, analog solid state (class A, AB) and class D amps will coexist in high end since all are capable of high performance if well designed and implemented with quality components.
That sounds very reasonable to me. Notice that new technology only ever seems to obsolete old technology in the consumer arena, but never in specialist arenas. Did CD players obsolete vinyl ? Did transistors obsolete tubes ? Have exotic materials obsoleted doped paper drivers ? Not in high end. |
Seems Acoutic Reality not afraid to put their products out for review.......6 Moons also has review coming on Pre2/Enigma power amp combo. |
Khrys, I can see how my evangelizing over one product can lead a reader into distrust. I actually enjoy a good argument.
You have me feeling nostalgic over my Great Aunt Key, and cousin Van Day Truex. Even the mansions of Shawnee Missions are gone to condos.
My Pass 600 amps are in merry England. Thanks for asking.
I will toast to your good health these Holidays with a glass of egg nog tonight. |
Muralman1..Go to www.Carverpro.com for info. $800 and change. There are mods, mostly to simply bypass the Prosound features that audiophiles don't need. |
Muralman, chastized as such by the choir, I accept the sincerity of your posts and offer my apologies for any doubt expressed indeftly. Rgcards says it best, indeed. BTW, have you sold your Pass Labs? I might be interested. |
Thank you for the input Eldartford. I hadn't even heard of the Carver. These things are cheap. I have heard rumors there are a number of these new breeds ready to hit the streets, at ever cheaper prices.
|
On Brystons website there's an article about this in the "what's new" section, in the latest newsletter. Ignore my previous post.
James |
Muralman1...Ok I will step forward. As I have said in other threads, I have purchased Carver ZR1600 digital amps, and I find them to be superb (driving MG1.6 and subwoofers). This confirms opinions posted elsewhere by other reviewers. Also importantly, they are so low in price (considering their power, 600 watts 4 ohms) that anyone having an interest in expressing an opinion on digital amps has no excuse not to try one. |
It has a write up on digital amps in the lastest newletter.
James |
On tube sound. I am just trying to describe the eAR in terms we are familiar with. For me, tubes have always imparted the playback with a wholeness, and kindness, solid state only approaches. The Pass amps brought me close.
IMHO, the eAR (?digital enabled solid state?) bridges the accuracy and extension of great solid states with the wholeness, and kindness of tubes. On top of that, it thoroughly clarifies the players, to where everything is heard in proper proportion.
Jeff Rowland has already entered the digital module fray, I believe. As has been noted, PS Audio has rocked the boat hard with their cheap entry. The basic bud of Class D technology may have been around for a while. Now it is beginning to fully blossom.
Really, everyone, I am just giving you my personal experience. When I started this topic, I was hoping others with similar esperience would step forward - seems I have jumped the gun. |
|
The "tube sound" and the "solid state sound" relate to the
distortion spectrum characteristic of these devices when used in a linear amplifier.
In a digital amplifier, the characteristics of the ouput devices, tubes or transistors, are irrelevant because they are full on or full off all of the time. The output devices could be relays if you could find ones that switch fast enough. Any sonic characteristic is the result of the algorithms used to control the output devices. |
As I see it, Muralman has maintained a long-term relaionship with his Apogees. He now seems to have found an amp that mates perfectly with his long term partner and his enthusiasm knows no bounds. As fellow audiophiles we should be happy for Muralman.
Btw, the title of his post is kind of silly since these digital amps are solid state amps. |
Khrys,
Muralman has been posting on these boards for quite a long time, and his posts usually revolve around the Apogee speakers. There is really nothing to suggest that Muralman is as shill; if he were one it would be for the defunct Apogee corporation. He has also praised Pass labs many times. The tone of his posts are also inconsistent with having been suborned.
I personally appreciate when a audiogon member chooses to share his experience with a "new" technology, (although this technology is not new). As in many other circumstances, the reader needs to temper his acceptance of proferred opinions with the knowledge that enthusiasm might be tainting the objectivity of the observations. Nevertheless, in regard to the subject at hand ,there is considerable interest in these digital amps, and some people have reacted very passionately to them, suggesting much more vehemently than muralman, that ,for example, the ps audio is better than almost any amp available. In the last several weeks there have been treads about the carver pro 1600 and some sort of giant killing panasonic receiver. My undestanding is that Rowland is also thinking of marketing an amp based on this technology. Thus, I think it is great that muralman has shared his experience. Of course there are shills on this board but they are usually easy to spot, (first time posters, those recommending expensive mods performed only by one company etc). I ,for one, would hope that everyone would be feel free to share there experiences without apprehension of being unfairly maligned |
Muralman, the sublety of the above posts is obviously lost on you so let me, the "feisty one", spell it out. You come across as a shill (look it up). You would have us believe that a discontinued speaker generously described as notorious now powered by a "revolutionary" amp only sold "factory-direct" defines the "state of the art". Who can replicate your experience? And why would we take your "word" when you so easily confuse dB with Hz in your posts? And your obsequious email to Acoustic Reality as "Vince" 11/03 undermines your veracity to the point that I must ask: What financial stake do you have in the North American distribution of Acoustic Reality products? Better yet, where can I find these gems at CES next month? |
Unsound, your adult approach to dialogue is refreshing.
There are many models of Apogees. I have happily run some on 100 watt tube amps. All are 4 ohm speakers, or greater, except the Scintilla. Why do I choose the Scintilla? Because it is the finest of all Apogees. I was well aware of it's amp requirements when I bought them.
I am glad that you have heard Apogees. Your characterization of suppressed higher frequencies puzzles me. I have read everything I can find on Apogees, and not once have I heard that criticism before. It certainly doesn't apply to my experience either.
I would think all dipoles require careful positioning. I know for certain, the Scintilla will lose it's highs if wrongly positioned. Maybe that was the case when you heard them.
I have heard just about every speaker out there, and I have yet to yearn for any. The highs in my system extend to out of hearing naturally, without a hint of beaming.
I am absolutely certain the eAR will fit into any system. Obviously it has the power needed for any load. It is beautifully built. Because of the lack of needing heavy heat sinks, or giant transformers, there are big cost savings.
The eAR doesn't sound anything like other digital amps I have heard, including TacT, and the EVO. It really sounds like the finest tubes, only clearer still, with a serious grip on the bass driver. The eAR's mid range dynamics are better than anything I have heard elsewhere. It is in a space of it's own.
So far, people who were ready to hand the cash in, and walk out the door with my X600 blocks, have scoffed at the idea they should listen to the eAR. I have to admit, it is a hard sell. I am not saying people will come around quickly.
I predict as more of us adopt digitals, the faster the movement will spread. Even now, digital amps are being designed for market by many amp manufacturers. I believe they will flood the market within a year.
A group of us (converts all) did take the eAR to a Martin Logan owner's place. In the past, we had listened to the Jolida 1000, Pass X150, Sonic Frontier, and a Llano 300 on the MLs. We all agreed, the eAR bested the lot of them on the Martin Logan.
Cheers
|
Muralman1, please take this in the manner in which it is intended. I'm not trying to unduly attack the Apogees. I'm sure that you'll agree that they are a rather unique speaker. One that puts a unusual load on amps, requires more than typical care regarding placement, and to my ears and I'm led to believe others as well, presents a sonic signature of eleveated lower frequencies and depressed higher frequencies. Despite all this they certainly have their charms. The reason I mention all this, is because I'm curious if you had the opportunity to use the eAR amp on other speakers. Do you think the eAR is that most sought after neutral product or one that just seems to have a synergy with the Apogees? |
Khyrs. Why don't you have your maid give you a warm glass of milk, and tuck you in. You must be running a fever. |
