I am planning to have three 20 amp circuits run from my panels into my music room which is right next to the basement where I got two 200 amp breaker boxes.
To add an separate breaker box directly from the transformer, I was told it would be very expensive and it would make it commercial.
The electrician said, he can make a separate 100 amp panel and run 3 20 amp circuits. But the ground from the separated breaker box will be connected to the ground of one of the main panels. If the grounds are finally connected to the main panel, what is the point of having a separate 100 amp panel? I have quite a few 20 amp slots available in the main panels.
I am also reading about isolated ground. What does it exactly mean? I also read that, it is dangerous to have isolated ground and regular ground next to each other, as each can have a different potential and it can kill people when touched simultaneously.
I also read that, all grounds have to be connected to each other as a safety code. If that is the case, how does isolated ground actually isolate?
Also, I want to connect my components directly to the three 20 amp lines, so I can save cost on conditioners. How do conditioners work? some say they impair sound.
Arc fault are the state of the art fire prevention. GFCI is great when you are around water.
Standard breakers are more reliable, in that they'll trip less. Not sure what the NEC or local codes require these days. Last time I looked, arc fault was only needed for bedrooms. Always follow local requriements. :)
I've only been around similar ideas of balanced transformers and I am a big fan. Others who have used them like but I don't have personal experience with the brand.
Torus, if you are listening, I'll do a review if you ship me a unit. :)
If you mean mechanical hum, that’s rare, and usually has to do with having DC in your line. If a balanced transformer is used however it can eliminate it, but in some cases, if the DC is severe enough may physically vibrate. Personally I think the common mode noise elimination is worth that risk.
I have a voltage regulator, and yes, it hums, but I have to be 6" away from it to hear it. Then again I don’t use the VR unless my voltage displays tell me my power is being funky.
@ jea48, (GREAT INFO.) I learn about HENRY W. OTT in the 1970's. A brilliant mind!. Thanks for reminding me. lets not for get, Charles Proteus Steinmetz. Mike
If you can run 240V, you may want to use a combination step down and balanced power conditioner. The 240V will reduce voltage dropping, and the balanced power part will reduce noise. You’ll have balanced power all the way from the transformer to your units.
@erik_squires can you please recommend a few power conditioners. I am also looking into power distributors. Pros and Cons?
I go over this mostly in my blog post, but as you may know, I like to stay with less expensive brands, as I believe that the most expensive tend to devolve into snake-oil and placebo salesmanship, not to mention end up not having the appropriate UL rating as surge protectors.
The best performing I know of are Zero Surge and Brick Wall. However, as much as I like them they are limited in features.
I use the Furman line with SMP and LiFT which seems to work well for noise reduction and have a great number of features, like multiple banks, triggered outlets, etc.
@ Kanchi647, My two dedicated lines are dual voltage. The two plugs i have are a leviton 5842-i top125 Volts/20 Amps, bottom 250 Volts/20 Amps. Wire is 10/3 AWG orange romex. Once you do that. You can buy any audio gear you want. As i said in my old post i run my amps mono blocks, and preamp,on 230 Volts. I install the two dedicated lines 15 years a go. If you do not want 250 Volts, leave the (red) wire in the panel and @ the plug. If you google that plug you will see what i mean. Dedicated circuit is (isolated ground). Remember current go's back to source, (not ground). Make all three romex lines the same length, from panel to plug. You do not need a separate panel... hope that helps.. mike.
Running dedicated lines and power conditioners is not at all the same thing.
Dedicated lines don't remove noise once it's at the pole and don't provide surge protection. I never suggest a $10k power conditioner, my suggestions were much more modest.
As some one else pointed out, the one thing they do is limit the voltage drop which other devices may cause on the same line.
My guess is using the neutral/white wire for ground is against code. In 10 /3 the red wire is not used unless you're doing 240 or three way lights. Black is phase 1 Red phase 2 White neutral Green or bare is ground.
Ok, I understand. But the term "isolated" has nothing to do with bare wire ground vs. insulated.
Isolated ground vs. self-ground means the circuit has it’s own dedicated ground wire that bonds the breaker box to the duplex and back to the panel. The ground screw is isolated from the other connections and also the metal box (if not using plastic).
By not touching any other metal in the receptacle it will reduce noise and will have the same ground potential as the other audio circuits.
Regarding your ground rods. If they're really old, they may be degraded and who knows what metal they used 30 years ago. And code has changed in the last 30 years. I'll bet the electrician will want to sink 2 new rods with new ground wire back to the panel.
kanchi, Yes. Left side is the A leg (phase), right side is B.
Typical circuit box layout... A. B. Breaker. 1. 2 3 4 5 6 You could use 20A breakers in slots 1,3,5 for audio. That's 3 dedicated lines on the same phase. Every home is different. The electrician will need to balance the loads. The current draw on A should be about the same amount as the current draw on B; ie, refrigerator on A and air conditioning on B.
@erik_squires thanks for sharing the article. Power conditioners can cost as much as 10K and split single 20 amp circuit among all the components, which should be plenty enough even with 500 amp monoblocks.
Running isolated 20 amp circuits is cheap. I can have 3 seperate 20 amp lines with 6 outlets for 1-2K depending on the outlets I use. Will they still have EMI/RF that needs to be conditioned?
@millercarbon Thanks for sharing MF's video. I am surprised he is running all that equipment on single 20 amp circuit using Niagara 7000.
@lowrider57 I have two ground rods one from each panel (must be 30 yrs old and I cannot see them) that are connected by a thin wire to each 200 amp panel. Do you suggest a third rod and tie back to other two rods?
@gs5556 Thank you for the explanation. Now I understand what isolated ground means.
@lowrider57 the 200 amp panels have a column on the Left and right. Is each in a different phase? How to determine which phase a outlet is in? Which receptacles did you use?
You should also have ground rods installed 8 ft. into the earth, or as required by code. Typically you would sink 2 ground rods, one for each panel. They would be tied back to the ground in the panels.
@ gs5556, I concur.. To the (OP) run all three circuit with 10/3/ awg orange romex wire. And all three circuit, will have a "isolated ground." Connect all audio components directly into the plugs .For the best sound..
Receptacles with isolated grounds are still grounded. The ground is isolated from the grounding system downstream of the panel. For example, if you install a receptacle to a metal receptacle box you tap from another circuit, the grounds are common to all outlets on that circuit through the boxes and wiring. An isolated ground receptacle has insulators on the ears which insulates (isolates) the receptacle from the box. The receptacle is then grounded by the green wire attached to the screw on the receptacle and the wire is run directly to the ground bus of the panel and does not join any other circuit grounds.
If you use romex wire and plastic boxes, the ground scheme is almost the same. Since the plastic box is non-conductive, you are required to ground the green wire to the receptacle screw. If that circuit happens to be dedicated to that receptacle, it becomes an "isolated ground" receptacle by default.
Pains me to see so many spending so much for so little. Do not add a panel. Total waste of time and money. Run one line. Do a search. Read my comments. Including the ones with this link where you will want to pay special attention to what Michael Fremer says at 15:50. https://ultimist.com/video/2018/07/21/michael-fremers-listening-room/
The only thing dedicated lines will do is reduce the noise you might get from other in-home sources.
I think the greatest benefit from dedicated lines is the virtual elimination of voltage drop. That might matter less to you if you aren't using large amplifiers.
All grounds in a home must be bonded together and come to the neutral at exactly one point. Everything else is a danger to life and property.
However, you can run a ground rod loop. That is, you can put in more ground rods near your listening location, and loop them in. Totally fine so long as the above remains true.
The only thing dedicated lines will do is reduce the noise you might get from other in-home sources. However, it's 50/50. The better your wiring, the closer you are to the transformer, the more outside noise you can bring in.
I wrote about the need for conditioners extensively here:
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