Hi jond,
I've yet to come across a disappointing sound K2 CD. They are exceptionally good based on my exposure. The few RVG recordings I've heard were very good sounding as well.
Charles |
Jkull,
Granted this is just my opinion but I don't believe that you are missing much at all by not having DSD. What limited listening exposure I've had didn't match the preceding hype.
I believe that the Redbook medium is/ can be genuinely excellent "if" you have a very good quality digital source. My listening is predominantly jazz and most of this genre's CD recordings are well done. If could be different with other types of music as far as CD vs DSD recordings.
Charles |
Hi jkull,
It appears to me that since your acquisition of the Line Magnetic 219ia your system has taken a sharp turn toward naturalness and realism. No doubt that this change in your digital source takes you further down that road. I don't believe there will be any looking back. I'm sure music played though your current system is organic and captivating.
Charles |
Hi jkull,
It appears that the 300b tubes individual character are apparent as driver tubes just they are when used as output tubes. Your description of the sound of the KR is quite similar to how it was in my amplifier. Like I have written previously I gave a slight edge to the EML XLS but could unquestionably live happily with either of these exceptional tubes. No surprise to me that you preferred the KR to the Full Music 300b. I’d check to be sure that the EML mesh is suitable as a driver tube in your amplifier's circuit. It’s a very beautiful organic sounding tube under the right circumstances.
Charles |
Jkull,
If you learn the EML XLS is acceptable to use in your amp I'd ask Jac if the XLS offers any advantage utilized as a circuit driver tube compared to a standard EML (or KR) 300b. I'm familiar with his site and he appears to be quite knowledgeable regarding the European tubes.
Charles |
Jkull and Jond,
The EML mesh plate is a very airy sounding tube. I had them in my amplifiers for several weeks until they failed. This is a more delicate tube and my amplifier circuit pushes them too hard, so not compatible. They’d be beautiful in the right 300b amplifer.
Jkull I see your point, apparently my amplifier is a better match with the XLS version. I do believe that the KR standard 300b should be fine in your situation.
Charles |
Jkull,
I'm more familiar with EML than KR. The EML XLS according to the U.S, Distributor is approaching 40,000 hours of service for some long term owners and still tests well, now that is impressive. The KR as far as I know is built to a similar high standard and could possibly be as durable. Getting them for a very good price is a high value proposition. I believe that you'll have no regrets.
Charles |
Jkull,
Yes, that is my suspicion, I can’t produce facts to confirm that however.
Common sense and listening experience suggest to me that a high quality 300b driving a good 845 tube should sound beautiful!
Charles |
Jond,
Do you happen to know what amplifier the EML XLS user owns? Just curious as sometimes certain tubes are better performing in certain amplifiers. Interesting that he and I hear the very same sonic character of the EML XLS.
Charles |
Jkull,
As I wrote above both tubes are terrific. I’d go for the best price in your situation. Either should be excellent as a driver tube in your amplifier. The standard KR would seem an excellent tube driving the 845 tube., in this function I'm not sure the XLS version offers an advantage.
Charles |
Jkull,
The upscale Czech 300bs are excellent all around tubes. I used a pair of the KR XLS loaned from a friend. I'd say that in my amplifier the EML XLS is a "bit" more open/airy and the KR XLS slightly darker (but not dark if you know what I mean), subtle difference. Overall both are terrific in my opinion.
Charles |
Hi jkull,
I've had the sheer pleasure of owning the Elrog, Takatsuki and EML XLS 300b tubes. These are simply top-tier tubes that sound superb yet each has its unique character. The EML XLS is admirably natural and transparent I can’t say that it "adds" warmth. Rather it reveals the inherent warmth or lack of it in a recording.
For example I have recordings that really convey the full bodied tone and warmth of tenor saxophonists and the colorful and rich harmonics of jazz guitar chords. The EML is a wonderful conduit of this realistic reproduction, it preserves the soul and emotion of music. It is a very stout and durable tube.
Charles |
Jkull,
I haven’t commented extensively on the 300b options because I’m only familiar with it as an output tube and not as a driver. It’s certainly possible that the brand characteristics remain consistent regardless of duty they provide in the amplifier.
If that’s the case then for the type of sound you desire I’d say you’re on the right track with the TJ Full Music carbon plate and the Psvane W.E.. Replica. These two may be a bit fuller/warmer than the Shuguang Black Treasure tubes. I used the Black Treasure for about 2 1/2 years and it’s a very good tube.
I’m not sure of voltage issues with the EML XLS . I can only report that its an outstanding tube in my SET amplifier in both sound quality and reliability. EML also offers a standard 300b that is said to be excellent.
Charles |
Hi jkull,
I appreciate your update post. You did make a pretty drastic change in the direction of your audio system (mega watt solid state driving demanding speakers). I’m happy for you that you took a chance with a near polar opposite approach and have found such satisfaction.
Simple circuit lower power amplifiers and efficient easier driven speakers is a very fine option that can provide long term contentment. Do you that you’re listening to music more often and/or for longer listening sessions ? Is there more of an emotional connection to the music? Charles
|
The EAR 868 is very highly thought of in the realm of good tube preamplifiers. Quite a compliment for the 219ia preamp section competing so closely.
Walter I'm curious to know how the EML XLS works out as a driver tube in your amplifier. It's splendid as an output tube in my amplifier.
Charles |
"I wasn't able to get that done before "
Well that's a beautiful and concise summation of where the LM 219ia has taken your system and listening enjoyment.
Charles
|
Good decision, you’ll be covered regarding the 310a for many years. It’ll be interesting when you get around to the 300b driver and the 845 output tubes. I have good experience with both especially the 300b. I’ve heard 11 different brands in my SET amplifier (both my own and via "generous " loans from fellow audiogoners). Good 300bs aren’t cheap but the better ones definitely sound terrific.
Granted I’ve only heard the 300b as the output tube and not functioning as a driver tube as in your amplifier. When it comes to the 845 the Psvane W.E Replica was superb in my friend’s Absolare Passion Signature PSET. We both felt that they surpassed his NOSE RCA 845, subjective of course.
As I’ve said before, you Line Magnetic 219ia deserves the best tubes you can comfortably afford. I’m listening to Miles Davis as I type and I feel as though I can reach out and touch the musicians, so real is the sound. A high quality 300b tube in a good amplifier is just natural and beautiful. I believe you can relate to what I mean. The same is true for the 845 tube.
Charles |
Jkull,
Well that would suggest to me that the stock 310a tubes may be pretty good quality tubes and/or the input stage tube "may not" be as impactful or critical as the preamp section 12AX7 in the 219ia. "You just don’t know until you listen to the various tubes in specific amplifier circuit sites. Your approach is the way to proceed.
Charles |
Jkull,
Have you had the opportunity to hear the vintage Western Electric 310a tubes in your 219ia yet?
Charles |
My hutch based solely on pedigree is that the Western Electric vintage tube in good operating condition should provide an upgrade over the stock LM tube. Speculation ? Yes but you'll settle this very soon 😊.
Charles |
Hi jkull,
It’s fun reading your fulfilling tube rolling experiences and I know how rewarding and eye opening it can be. I'm very interested to read what degree of change the vintage Western Electric 310a offer. This is the point discussed earlier in this thread, a fundamentally well executed amplifier revealing its true sonic potential with higher quality tube replacement. It is counterproductive to handicap high caliber amplifiers with mediocre level tubes.
You are really moving fast towards genuine top tier home audio sound. You are beyond the previous big SS amplifier setup as you acknowledge. Once you actually experience that pure natural sound quality it becomes impossible to to go back to what you had, there's no looking back. This happened to me as its has with others who've discovered the superior music reproduction of high quality lower power tube amplifiers, particularly SET. I'm happy for your fabulous journey into this special genre. Keep us posted on your continuing and engaging path.
Charles |
Ross, I imagine you're very happy with that amplifier. Charles |
Hello Ross,
You’ve mistaken me for someone else, I didn’t post that statement.
The only Triode Corp product I've had direct experience with and knowledge of is the "TRX" M 845 PSET amplifiers which I have heard on several occasions. In my opinion an excellent sounding and beautifully built amplifier.
Charles |
facten
George lists the complete EML line however I believe you have to call him in regard to the Western Electric tubes.
Charles
|
Jkull,
Your approach is wise in my opinion . You listen primarily to records so a high quality Phono stage is mandatory to obtain superior sound. I agree with beginning with the preamplifier and input signal tubes and then progression down the signal pathway.
I lack the detailed knowledge concerning the specific tubes you mention to make meaningful suggestions. tubesusa . com is a Western Electric dealer (George is the owner and is very helpful) 516 902 3334. It's a very good starting point for information.
Charles |
Hi Al,
I happily defer to you in regards to all that is technical in nature. I am limited to the realm of the philosophical and subjective listening experiences.
High quality 12AX7s will likely make a very noticeable difference in the critical preamplifier section of the 219ia in my opinion.
Charles |
Yes, I believe that you’re using the preamp (line stage function) section in the pathway to provide gain for your phono signal .If Al happens to be still following this thread I hope he’ll correct me if I’m mistaken.I think the 219ia allows bypassing the preamp section via a "direct" connection thus using the 219ia as a power amplifier only option.
Charles |
jkull,
From what I've read the weak link in the 219ia are the preamplifier stock 12AX7s. If you are using the preamp section of the 219ia rather than a separate preamp that is a good place to begin tube replacement.
Charles |
Hello Chris,
A pair of the EML XLS 300b cost 775.00 USD from tubesusa.com in New York. Their service and support is 2nd to none. The Psvane W.E Replica are 935.00 USD. Psvane does have lower cost models/series of the 300b that are good quality. The Japanese Takatsuki 300b run about 1800 to 2000.00 USD per pair. I purchased my Takatsuki pair 4 years ago,.
EML offers a standard 300b for around 500.00 USD and is said to be very good (I've only used/heard their XLS versions). The Shuguang Black Treasure 300b is a good tube and is less money than the pricier mentioned choices above . I used this tube for 3 years prior to getting the Takatsuki. There's good selection of better quality 300b tubes across the price spectrum just depends on predetermined budget.
Charles |
Jkull,
The premium level DHT tubes are expensive, especially 300bs (Takatsuki or heaven forbid the Western Electric vintage types). The Psvane W.E Replica are pricey but not exorbitant and in my opinion represent excellent value given their high quality of sounnd (and reliability, important when discussing tubes).
When you own an upper tier amplifier that's capable of superb sound quality they demand equal quality tubes to extract the full potential available. The good news is that the premium DHT tubes generally provide commendable longevity. For example I use the EML XLS 300b which is reported to have a lifespan approaching 40,000 hours based on early versions still in operation. That makes the initial cost worth it in absolute terms as far as I am concerned.
Jkull I believe that with your amplifier both the 300b driver and 845 are very influential in determining the final sound quality. I feel that you can buy them in either order (diver first or the output 845 first). Buying these top level tubes depends on one's budget obviously.
I look at it from this perspective, the 219ia cost 7500.00 as opposed to 15K-20K USD. So even with obtaining the premium tubes the total outlay is very reasonable compared to other amplifier/tube packages to achieve similar sound quality.
Charles |
Jkull,
Good choices of upgraded tubes. I've heard the Shuguang Natural series 845 and it's nice sounding. The Psvane W.E, Replica 845 is a level beyond the Shuguang in sound quality.
Charles |
Chris,
You occupy an enviable position at this point. You find the 508ia performance "spectacular " with the use of better 6SN7 input tubes. Experience and logic dictate that upgrading the 300b driver and the 805 output tubes will push the sonic envelope further. You’ll find yourself in situations where shutting down the system and leaving your listening room will be unusually difficult to do. This is how powerful the emotional involvement of listening to music becomes when you get things right as you’re surely discovering. Fortunately your amplifier is SET and you’ll only require one pair of 300b and 805 rather than multiple pairs.
Charles |
Psvane is really a good quality current production tube and generally seem to be a step above comparable Shuguangs (although some of their offerings are quite good). If Psvane ever makes a W.E.Replica version of the 805, go for it! This is sonically their top tier series of tubes.
Waltersalas, not everyone is not convinced on the idea/use of upgrade level fuses and I don’t know where you stand on the issue. I’m in agreement with Wig in regard to their positive contributions. In my and a close friend’s experiences with our systems they have consistently benefitted DACS, preamplifiers and power amplifiers. Obviously this matter is a personal call. I’ve just had rewarding experiences with changing tubes, capacitors and fuses over the years. Anyway that is my 2 cents worth, I can appreciate the joy the SET 508ia has brought to your audio system.
Charles |
The comments from reviewers and especially owners of the Line Magnetic SET amplifiers is noteworthy. Consistently there is praise for the very high standard of built quality, fit and finish. LM is serious about the quality of their output transformers and power supplies. If country of origin were Japan they'd easily be 3x the cost. Line Magnetic is unquestionably legitimate High End in design, execution and performance.
Charles |
Walter,
I just realized that I am talking about the 845 and your 508 uses the 805, Oops! I'm thinking about the 219ia that does use the 845. I don’t know much about the 805 but if Psvane makes one I’d look into it. Their upper tier line of tubes are consistently good.
Charles |
Hello Walter,
Some people say that the VAC REN 30/30 may be a bit sweeter and organic than the more powerful 70/70 (if you don’t require the additional power). I can’t comment on that comparison but I believe that both are terrific amplifiers . The Coincident Frankenstein is superb for my needs however I feel that the LM 508ia is also superb and a wonderful match with your Daedalus Ulysses speakers.
A friend of mine had the Absolare Passion Signature 845 PSET mono blocks and we listened to a variety of 845 tubes. NOS RCA,Elrogs, Shuguang, Psvane Hifi and their W.E.Replica version. The best sounding were the Elrog and Psvane W.E.Replica, these two stood out without question in our opinion.
Elrogs are Uber expensive and can have some reliability issues. The W.E.aren’t nearly as costly (although they aren’t cheap either) proved to be very reliable and sound excellent. Overall in terms of value and absolute sound quality I enthusiastically recommend this tube. Your 508ia is high caliber and will exploit the top quality tier of tubes.
Charles |
Hello Walter,
I looked at your system page and you have good taste. I'm familiar with the VAC REN 70/70 amplifier (a classic IMO). You have two fine amplifiers to interchange, 300b PP and 805 SET. Nice!
Charles |
When I used to tube roll with my PP amplifier’s 6SN7 drivers the RCAs and Sylvanias from the 1940s-1950s were very good.
Waltersalas ironic your experience with amplifiers. You preferring 1930s technology (SET) to the state of the art (the future is here now) Devialet. Nonetheless I thoroughly understand your choice. I believe that the 508ia will keep you happy for many years. DHT 300b driving DHT 805 in a minimalist pure class A circuit supported by a robust power supply. Some things in audio are just timeless.
Charles |
Jkull,
Given your stated sonic objectives and listening priorities I'd go for the Line Magnetic 219i (LM). By all accounts it is exceptionally well made, uses high quality parts, premium grade transformers and very robust power supply. SET circuits by default are simple and minimalist thus a straight and uncluttered signal path. 300b driver tube for the 845 is very smart.
Reviews and word of mouth via owners has been enormously enthusiastic. I believe that this amplifier will provide a combination of SET purity, transparency and nuance along with very ample grunt, bass control and current capacity for your particular speakers. Tonality and naturalness should be truly top tier.
Charles |
Jkull,
One other factor to consider is the 300b driver tube is audibly important in this circuit. Those familiar with the 219ai say this driver along with the 845 output tube are sensitive to the quality of tubes. If you decide to go for this amplifier people report that the Psvane W.E.Replica 300b and 845 are exceptionally good.
Charles |
mb1 audio,
Do you really believe that jkull is merely seeking pats on the back? I don't get that impression, rather he is attempting to establish a database for 2 amplifiers he has interest in owning. Reviews and forum feedback is a practical way to gain information. It has been very helpful to me over the years. You have to begin somewhere and listening to a product isn't always readily available.
I purchased my amplifier, speakers and DAC as a result of owner feedback combined with reviews and it worked out fabulously. Other components I own I was able to hear prior to buying.
Charles
|
Trenner-Friedl are exceptional speakers, I heard their RA Box speaker and it was terrific.
Charles |
Sounds like a smart approach. I use the W.E. Replica 101d tubes in my Line Stage and they’re clearly an upgrade in sound quality across the board. Well worth their additional cost.
Good luck,
Charles |
Hi jkull,
No arguing tone intended at all, just an open discussion. Sorry if I came across as contentious. I avoid personal spats on these forums.
Charles |
Excellent idea to go listen to these various LM amplifiers. Let us know your listening impressions.
Charles |
Hello mb1 audio,
I don't believe anyone posting here has suggested your input is wrong, different perspectives are expected on these forums and is how information is gathered. I happen to think that his speaker and LM 845 SET is a very reasonable match with the potential to be quite sucessful. Jkull acknowledged that the Marantz is for temporary use. As far as I am concerned his pathway is a sound one. It is not clear to me what informs your caution.
Charles, |
Jkull,
Al and mb1 audio raised legitimate caution in regard to gain and sensitivity issues and the possibility of excessive noise. It is reassuring to know that you heard a LM amplifier driving very sensitive (104 db) La Scalas with such a fine listening outcome. The Stereophile measurements cited by Al would raise reasonable doubt regarding compatability. Your direct listening experience seems to have resolved that concern, assuming that the LM amplifiers measure similarly. Nothing beats actually listening to a component/speaker. I believe that you’re headed towards sucess. Your recent experience is consistent with what others have reported when using high sensitivity speakers.
Charles |
Hi Roxy,
I've read where people who've listened to both the 219ia and 518i reached the same conclusion as you. Essentially the 518 is "very" good however the 219 is in a higher tier.
Charles |
Jkull.
Yep! Let your ears guide you as I believe you'll find that both LM amplifiers are really good sounding and it's a matter of which one you connect with musically. Both of them have an abundance of power/headroom for your 102 db sensitive speakers. The truth is that at typical/reasonable listening levels you'll only be using tiny fractions of 1 watt of power. In fact I'd wager that you'd seldom exceed the "first" watt of power unless you really crank up the volume.
In your situation the emphasis is truly focused on the quality of the amplifying power and that's what you'll get with either of these 2 amplifiers. Truth be told, you could get by easily with a good quality 8 watt SET amplifier. The two another amplifiers will of course provide you more flexibility if you were to ever change your speakers. Once again I'll say that you're headed in the right direction. May as well get a high quality good sounding power amplifier now and minimize the spector of "upgraditis" down the road.
Charles |
Jkull,
I view it this way, many people have/are using the Cornwall with a "wide" array of tube amplifiers. Overwhelming they report very satisfying outcomes, that’s significant and also encouraging. Could the LM 219ia or 508ia be the exceptions that won’t pair with the Cornwallis successfully? It’s possible, but I think unlikely given the "many" tube amplifiers that have been successful across a wide user database.
Of course I nor anyone else can guarantee any outcome, I believe that the odds are strongly in your favor. Although not identical pairings, just how different could the LM 219ia-Cornwall be from the LM amplifier -La Scala you recently heard? Believe me I see the point Al raises and it is a legitimate one. The testimony of legions of Cornwall owners with tube amplifiers spread over decades should provide you some measure of confidence.
Charles |
