@jetter Grain of salt. Just observation.
I am sure he is wonderful.
I am sure he is wonderful.
Millercarbon's Mega Moab Mod Meander
One of the all time great automotive engineers, Norbert Singer, was a key player in every one of the 16 Porsche LeMans victories from 1970 to 1998. His dominance was such that at one point Porsche had won LeMans more than all other marques combined. This was all accomplished by building on the already solid foundation of Porsche production models. The air cooled flat 12 in the 917 was really two flat sixes combined to make 12. This car so dominated motorsport the rules had to be changed to stop it!
So Norbert Singer modified Porsche production technology to extract the absolute most for racing. His legacy is today’s Singer Vehicle Design https://singervehicledesign.com Norbert doesn’t make for a very good car name so they called it Singer. What is a Singer? It is a modified Porsche. It is in essence a hot rod. What Norbert Singer did was make the most hot rod racing Porsche. What Singer does is take that to the next level, capturing every aspect of Porsche right down to excellence of design and aesthetics.
I am not anywhere near the level of Singer. But that is the spirit of what we are doing: taking an already world-class design and hot-rodding it to be even better. Well, better for me anyway- or so we hope!
The early modders started with substituting off the shelf parts to get more power or less weight. That is pretty much all we are doing here. Would be cool if some day people are doing this with a lot more sophisticated approach. Maybe they will. Maybe even I will. For now though we have the current crossover project.
My approach is pretty simple: better parts sound better.
This lesson was learned back in the late 90’s with Linaeum Model 10 speakers. The designer had a new tweeter and told me how to modify the crossover for it. Simple mod, one cap, one resistor. Bought the parts from Radio Shack, put it together, sounded like crap. Absolute horrid crap! Called him up, he said those parts are crap. Said Musicap, Vishay. But they measure the same? Just do it. I did. It worked. Even though they measure exactly the same, the sound difference is off the charts.
Even though they measure exactly the same. There is a lesson here. For those willing to learn.
So this is the essence of it: Eric Alexander has made a speaker the equivalent of a Porsche 911. Even better: an affordable Porsche 911! But after a while with my 911, after learning what makes it drive and feel the way it does, it was only natural to change the shocks and torsion bar and other items to bring out even more of what I like so much about the 911.
That is what we are doing here. Hot-rodding a speaker. Thank you Rick for the metaphor!
The parts are on order. Next week the fun begins!
So Norbert Singer modified Porsche production technology to extract the absolute most for racing. His legacy is today’s Singer Vehicle Design https://singervehicledesign.com Norbert doesn’t make for a very good car name so they called it Singer. What is a Singer? It is a modified Porsche. It is in essence a hot rod. What Norbert Singer did was make the most hot rod racing Porsche. What Singer does is take that to the next level, capturing every aspect of Porsche right down to excellence of design and aesthetics.
I am not anywhere near the level of Singer. But that is the spirit of what we are doing: taking an already world-class design and hot-rodding it to be even better. Well, better for me anyway- or so we hope!
The early modders started with substituting off the shelf parts to get more power or less weight. That is pretty much all we are doing here. Would be cool if some day people are doing this with a lot more sophisticated approach. Maybe they will. Maybe even I will. For now though we have the current crossover project.
My approach is pretty simple: better parts sound better.
This lesson was learned back in the late 90’s with Linaeum Model 10 speakers. The designer had a new tweeter and told me how to modify the crossover for it. Simple mod, one cap, one resistor. Bought the parts from Radio Shack, put it together, sounded like crap. Absolute horrid crap! Called him up, he said those parts are crap. Said Musicap, Vishay. But they measure the same? Just do it. I did. It worked. Even though they measure exactly the same, the sound difference is off the charts.
Even though they measure exactly the same. There is a lesson here. For those willing to learn.
So this is the essence of it: Eric Alexander has made a speaker the equivalent of a Porsche 911. Even better: an affordable Porsche 911! But after a while with my 911, after learning what makes it drive and feel the way it does, it was only natural to change the shocks and torsion bar and other items to bring out even more of what I like so much about the 911.
That is what we are doing here. Hot-rodding a speaker. Thank you Rick for the metaphor!
The parts are on order. Next week the fun begins!
185 responses Add your response
I've got the parts all laid out the right way now, each inductor axis at 90 to the others, and the fun part, Herbie's Grunge Buster mat under the inductors and around the ends of the Alumen Zcaps. Herbie's is kind of a stiffer thicker sorbothane I guess you could call it. Most of the rest of the caps are wrapped in fO.q tape. All the leads reach so they can all be wired direct to each other. Couple days now at my day job, then get back to it Saturday. |
chicagoblue1977, "@gulpson Be a man and just walk away."I am sorry, I will be gender-neutral today. While we are at that, as millercarbon allegedly does not read my posts (that is just one reason why he stays uninformed about topics he preaches), could you tell him that some of us are decent drivers? His demeaning non-sense was not well-placed. "I am sure he is wonderful." I am not sure about wonderful, but at least I have manners. Now, you do not need to walk away. Instead, why not run? |
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I found direct coupling the bass actually works. No passive XO for me anymore. My bass is all active XOs. At the very least my onboard Plate amps have DSP. One system is servo, one is Direct coupled with full blown DSP 300hz and below.. I like the way DSP pressures the room. more so than the servo units.. DSP I can actively see on a Laptop what is going on and change it on the fly.. Servo plate amps I can't.. I have to get up move the unit listen, play with the controls... YES PLAY! It takes forever.. DSP is a LOT more convenient using a Behringer set up.. Never tried it above 300 hz though.. I'm all passive 300hz and up.. 6 different crossovers at a time and daisy chainable... 6+6+6+6 etc. 256 nodes I think.. MC's set up has a single woofer on the bottom. that is better from a mag field perspective. I had TWO, close, at right angles. One is a double stack the other a single. LOL I stick a compass in there... It just spins. I'm not putting an XO even close. I think its 18" from the bass section. Need to remove the drivers all together. I haven't used the bass section in most speakers in years.. The Bass and monitor section in the same box? How do you separate the vibration there, if it so dog gone important? Vibration that is.. Just wondering from a guy who did do it.. ME... No bass and I limited the effects of bass on bass drivers (phase plug design) All the other drivers use a foam directional wave guides and weirs in the planar design (Back wave return). I've designed a LOW distortion, low vibration system that really works well. A lot of the acoustic tweak is right in the BOX and DRIVER design.. I actually though inside the box. Then outside the box for the bass. Just made sense to me. A manic mechanic :-) |
chicagoblue1977, Is your obsession with me just regular trolling, or should I consider it some flattering infatuation? You seem to be relatively new here so you may not know how it goes. If you came to fight, you are in the wrong place. This is a peaceful place. Debating is, in general, encouraged. Friendly, often humorous, exchanges are well-tolerated. Asking for information is encouraged, too. Calling people names and insulting them in every other post frequently gets an unfavorable response. Feel free to continue following me. It is free and over time you may learn something. In this particular thread, your focus may be better used on millercarbon's crossover project. Even I am following it with interest. |
Glupson specfic to debating one must have a general understanding of the factual use and implementation of material and methods if not science of the subject, in this thread it is audio. In your case you have demonstrated a failing grade on virtually any audio subject. Your commentary has limited use here or on any audio subject because you seem to lack a broad knowledge of anything that is part of the chain of sound. Tom |
One of the more useful resources in all my research is this site where caps are compared like fine wine- http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html The top Duelund caps are superb, but would cost more than the Moab - and take up about as much space! So I opted for Jantzen Alumen Z as they come very close for a fraction of the price. Then with a Duelund bypass cap they get even closer. It is one thing to read and look at these things on paper. It is quite another to actually hold in hand. The instant this happens it is quite apparent the Jantzen ring like the proverbial bell. Well they do appear to be rolled inside a thin wall aluminum tube. In contrast, the Duelund caps are in some sort of composite looking material that is thicker and quite inert. Even just a little bit of the Herbie’s material killed a lot of the Alumen Z ringing, and by the time I was done with fO.q tape the Jantzen are now pretty thoroughly damped. The Herbie’s material is thicker and so will double as additional isolation, suspending the caps about 1/8" above the mounting board and apart from each other. Another interesting thing that came up, inductors. There is a very generalized or simplified way of seeing electricity as a current that moves through the core of a wire while fine details ride along the outside, the skin effect. This is really silly simplified, leading to my saying to Krissy one day what we know about electricity is like what we knew about fire a million years ago- Don’t touch, fire hot! Millions like that even today. What’s behind the panel? Don’t touch! Still, we can do things even with this crude understanding. Coil a wire around and around, the fields block higher frequencies while the lower ones pass. This coil is an inductor. Inductors filter out high frequencies. There’s things we can do to improve inductors. An iron core improves efficiency. Eric uses one of these for the bass. Sometimes called a sledgehammer inductor, by Peter Gabriel fans, I guess. I wanna be.... A much better and (of course) more costly method is to shape the round wire into a flat ribbon and wrap the ribbon around with very thin insulation. This is better because we are trying to get the high frequency surface fields to interact and mute and this ribbon geometry maximizes these surface interactions. Also costs a lot more to roll into a pure copper wire into a uniformly thin ribbon and wind it all nice and tight and precise. So that is what we got, and I went for Goertz Alpha Core inductors. The gauge was a bit confusing. Normally with wire the gauge is thickness. In this case we want thin. So it was counter-intuitive at first to hear the thicker gauge is preferred. But gauge is really about cross-sectional thickness. The "thicker" 12AWG is actually ribbon rolled out very thin. But by making it wider we get the extra cross-sectional current carrying capacity. Now it makes sense! Alas, inductors get no love. If there is an inductor website where enthusiasts gush over their favorite inductors ineffable ability to convey the emotion in Tony Levin’s bass line, the perfect combination of slam and fundamental fullness, I have yet to find it. Still, that is what we are looking for here. Inductors also roll off the high frequencies from the midrange drivers. In doing so they affect not only the upper band of the midrange but the lower band of the tweeter. Nobody really seems to talk about this, yet it has to be. So in addition to what seems an obvious bass improvement it seems inevitable that quality inductors also contribute to improved midrange and treble. |
DHL has my Townshend Pods, to be delivered Monday. Crossover components are now ready to be fixed to the board and soldered together. Then stuffed in there somehow. 😳 So girls, my Saturday dance card is full! 😂 The crossover is mounted on an old Omega e-Mat. Thank you, Krissy and Frank for that one. Frank gave me the speaker idea quite some time ago, it has been brewing in there ever since. Mats however are too flexible to support this much weight. So they will be laminated to a BDR Shelf. Before laminating the completed crossover will be set up on Pods in order to determine where they will go. The BDR will then be drilled and tapped with studs used to screw Pods to Shelf. This will allow me to install the completed crossover and use it on the Shelf, and attach the Pods later without having to remove, drill and tap. I have an idea for a quick-release way to hold them in place that will also reinforce the brace. That's the plan. Iron Mike has a great quote about plans. So we will solder it, stuff it, and listen to it Saturday and Sunday. Then Monday with Pods. Anyways, with an eye out for the left hook! 😂😂😂 |
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Right now (before this whole thing blows up in my face!) would probably be a good time to thank Rick and Paul for all their help. Paul (sorry I forget his AG handle maybe MJLett?) was a big help early on, and Rick rixthetrick a huge help with details especially towards the end. There were others but these two especially have taken the time to answer all my dopey questions and help me climb a very steep learning curve. Thanks, guys! Also want to give a shout out to Madisound.com and partsconnexion.com for getting my orders out and delivered super fast. Both orders were placed late Thursday night, shipped Friday, and delivered the following Monday. This, with standard shipping! Impressive! John Hannant at Townshend Audio- bet no one ever asked him how to put Pods inside a speaker before! Thanks! Krissy, when she found out what I’m doing, is sending me some of her TDF magic designed to go where no TDF has gone before! Love me my Krissy magic. She is the best. Frank knows, doncha Frank? ;) And Tom. Almost forgot. (How could I?) ;) chicagoblue1977, hilde45, mglik, lawmnsuu, ovinewar1, petg60, nmmusicman, willgolf, oldhvymec, and all my many loyal lurkers, thank you as well. A lot of you prefer to avoid the unwanted attention of the few bad apples. Totally understand and respect that. All the same, so glad you reach out to me. My system will soon be a whole lot better thanks to information gleaned from others very much like yourself. Couldn’t have done it any other way. Was about to add something, but let’s keep it positive: Thank you! |
I have had platforms inside my speakers for many years and inside my power amps for the last 6 all tensioned..resonant energy directed to mechanical ground to and thru platforms on the outside of all. A stable reactive conduit for noise to get out of town. The drivers chassis are also part of this exit path strategy. Different concept than what you are employing..I guess we are both tied together at opposite extremes. I am certain all that hard work will be worth the effort. Another great project to describe and build. Good listening. Tom |
I would implement ERSE audio inductors, specifically one from the Q series.@thecapathian [I misnamed you sorry] - actually I tried to get MC to order the ERSE FoilQ which Erse claim to have even less distortion. Unfortunately Erse have discontinued the Foil Q. I was directing him to the same series of coils you are, just a different model. I am confident that the entire series are great performers, he did choose a highly performing alternative in a suitable gauge. There have been shootouts on inductors and foil inductors have a particular transparency in the signal path, of which I have been informed (rightly or wrongly) is due to the skin effect, or diminishing it’s negative characteristics with the thinner geometry. Some may ask why is it more important on the inductor as the rest of the components are not ribbon or foil conductors?? As air cored inductors generally sound better than iron cored coils, I suggested the foilQ, for reasons mentioned above. Air cored coils (also known as inductors, reactors, chokes) have longer windings (length of wire wound around a core) than ones with an iron core to achieve the same values. [I’ve wound air cored inductors in as large as 10AWG by hand, and not as much fun trying to keep it tight and neat as one might hope.] Specifically my answer is, there is many feet in those windings, a lot more material to affect the signal along it’s path than any other single item in the crossover, or along the signal chain, including the speaker cable. I guess MC will discover first hand whether or not it was a good call?!! Skin effect is the tendency of an alternating electric current (AC) to become distributed within a conductor such that the current density is largest near the surface of the conductor and decreases exponentially with greater depths in the conductor. The electric current flows mainly at the "skin" of the conductor, between the outer surface and a level called the skin depth. Skin depth depends on the frequency of the alternating current; as frequency increases, current flow moves to the surface, resulting in less skin depth. Skin effect reduces the effective cross-section of the conductor and thus increases its effective resistance. Skin effect is caused by opposing eddy currents induced by the changing magnetic field resulting from the alternating current. At 60 Hz in copper, the skin depth is about 8.5 mm. At high frequencies the skin depth becomes much smaller.source https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skin_effect |
Was kind of ticked off Erse wasted two days of my time not answering questions until finally saying we don’t make em any more. Which is one reason why I thank Partsconnexion.com and madisound.com and was going to not say anything about Erse. But since it keeps coming up, Erse sucks the big one. Wasted my time, didn’t do anything to help at all, say they have stuff they don’t even have. Anybody remember Jack Reacher, the scene where Duvall says, "Suck it!" Tried to find the clip, no luck. On second thought this is more like it https://youtu.be/nBG2IxzEn7g?t=52 |
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It only seems that way because the range is so wide. None of this by the way is anything new. Not even the vibration control. Others have done even more. Others here, even. Year or so ago I even came across one system, the guy had done everything I am doing, and then some. So impressive, PM'd the guy, we had a nice little phone call. He doesn't post. Why? Because certain a-holes (his word) who had nothing to contribute but insults keep at it. This works because on-line bullies never have to face anyone. Or we would find out real quick what cowards they are. This guy, he was all over this stuff, just not thick enough skin to take the heat. Which I can understand. Me, different story. |
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jetter, Good luck with such facts. I am not removing people from anywhere, but I do wonder how posts with obvious hatred and denigrating others are allowed to stay. For example, millercarbon's post above ends with glorifying rage and violence. All because some company did not have an item in stock. I think such things do not have place in an otherwise peaceful venue. They are neither funny, nor witty. They are pure angry hate. Sure, my link to an anger management course got removed while millercarbon's unpleasant link to pure violence stayed. It is baffling how many times have members here been called morons, hateful, and other truly unacceptable names. Over and over. One thing is to be arrogant, the other is to be hostile. |
Name calling like that is unacceptable really, by anyone. Unnecessary. Why doesn't MC simply go outboard with his crossover? I can tell you why I would wait to go outboard, unless it was an intention in the original design (Eric did not design it to be outboard). I would have to determine that the new crossover is indeed superior to the old crossover first. Then I'd have to determine which conductors I'd decide would best go with the lengthening of wires from the crossover. Knowing that in order to correctly implement an outboard crossover, generally terminals needs to be added to connect the extra wires for the three way driver configuration that was implemented in the original design. I suppose sealed pairs of wires could come out the back of the cabinet, requiring engineering and modification of the cabinet. Once such an undertaking takes place, there is really no turning back to restore them to original, as it stands, he can restore to original with a soldering iron, by restoring the original crossovers. There would be no good reason to run all of his internal speakers wires (which are quite a few, considering the array) through his port, and so further modification to the cabinet would be required. That's why I would do it in stages, if I was asked the same question. |
Even just a little bit of the Herbie’s material killed a lot of the Alumen Z ringing, and by the time I was done with fO.q tape the Jantzen are now pretty thoroughly damped. The Herbie’s material is thicker and so will double as additional isolation, suspending the caps about 1/8" above the mounting board and apart from each other.MC a comment about the Herbie's material, my guess is that you tried the fat dots, if so, then both the fat or thin will absorb any ringing but after trying both i found the thin ones to behave a little better in not absorbing too much life. But as i said is my guess. |
Still putting it together, haven’t heard music through them. But I have built a lot of stuff and know what it means when something tinks and rings like the bare Jantzen. Herbie’s used only about a 1/2" strip wrapped around each cap near the ends. Huge improvement. Almost stopped right there. Then added strips of fO.q tape a little at a time. Pretty sure the way it will all go back in there it will be possible to reach in and remove a strip or two at a time if need be. Got a hunch at least some of the super smooth yet detailed quality people hear from Duelund is down to the material used around the outside. The casing or whatever its called. The Duelund JDM Silver bypass caps are dead as dead can be. |
MC went about the capacitors differently than I had done in my crossovers (seen in my system page), the two different crossovers (two different pairs of speakers) both employed a use of double wall heat shrink. Where I joined two capacitors in parallel, there was silicone between them, and then double wall heat shrink and siliconed (if it’s not a word, maybe one day it will be?) securely to the board the crossover is built on. **Double wall heat shrink has hot glue on the inside wall.** Either way, MC’s way or the way Mike Lenahan told me to mount the capacitors are a good way to mitigate the ringing inside of a capacitor. An entire thread could be written on such things in crossover electronics, and ways to get the most out of them.... Interestingly: I bought fO.q tape and discs some time ago, based on a thread on Agon actually. As the thread progressed, the claims of snake oil came into the discussion and well, when the package from Japan arrived, I simply put it in the drawer. Seems like I’d better find it and apply it sometime, somewhere?!! @thecarpathian - your suggestion on the Erse was a really good one, and they were exceptional value for money as well. I was more than a little disappointed they’d stopped producing the FoilQ. @millercarbon - are you going to glue and cable tie your inductors to the backing board? That is to help mitigate ringing in your metal coils, by laminating it to the backing board and high tension cable ties. As they are tensioned they kinda act like springs, constantly holding the inductor to the backing board, coupling them. **it also insures that the glue never lets go either, just sayin'! |
Yes, that is the plan with inductors. Strip of fO.q tape, wrap with Mat, glue and strap em down. Crossover tweaks alone are enough for a big jump in sound quality. Combined with these high end parts you turned me onto it is scary to think how good it will be. Might be. Should be. lol! We will see! After carefully studying your system page Rick I think I have figured out what you are doing wrong. The system will be so much easier and better if you can just figure out how to get rid of the mortgage. |
There is no way you can claim your Tekton speakers are equivalent to a Porsche in status or quality, you either don’t know Porsche cars or you don’t know audio, or both. What you are trying to do is to take a Corolla equivalent speaker and make it a Porsche beater, good luck with that. BTW, I’ll take the Ruf! |
@rbstehno MC does have a Porsche actually. https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a32109250/toyota-corolla-gr-hot-hatch-confirmed-2022/ < This Corolla, YES! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3a6qawhxuJs&t=77s ^^ 579 hp and 703 Nm to the wheels on 1.6 bar of boost and 98 octane fuel. http://www.speedhunters.com/2012/07/barely_lega/ https://www.autoweek.com/news/g32012546/ryan-tuerck-1000-hp-toyota-corolla/ Those Japs made some seriously bonkers turbo cars that never landed in the USA. I did smile when he mentioned his Porsche, I had a Nissan GTST R33 Skyline back home. I never took it on the track, however I had kart time on tracks with my brother and other work mates. The Skyline wasn’t sold Stateside, well the Nissan GTR-35 is, I’d put up a Nissan Skyline GTR against a Porsche, especially given the same budget. :-) |
79SC. Former PCA Region President. Former PCA Driving Instructor. Scroll down to where it says, "Student Guide". That's me. I wrote that. https://www.pnwr.org/content.aspx?page_id=22&club_id=502548&module_id=180363 More than wrote it: formulated the program, organized it, ran it. But, I know nothing about Porsche. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HblPucwN-m0 |
This little exercise is about just one thing: if you want to avoid an accident, look where you want to go! Don't look at the accident or you will be the accident! This isn't just about avoiding accidents, either. Looking ahead to where you want to go helps you be smooth and fast on the track or auto-cross and safer in everyday driving.I liked that part. |
Miller, I’ve completely disassembled my entire D.I’s. I had to build the xover for the tweeter array and the 2- 6inch mids outside the box. The mids took 220uf so I used Mundorf Evo in oil. The center tweeter and the surrounding array I used a few Audyne True Copper caps and Path Audio resistors. I’m using the same inductors for now In the woofer section on the bottom, I removed all the insulation and replaced it with no rez. I also used Mundorf MPK caps and Mills resistors for the xover. I intalled Dyna Mat (vibration control sheeting) to the cross braces behind the woofers. I wired the each speaker with Duelund tinned copper wire of the appropriate size If you have any questions or I can figure how to send you some pictures message me. Grannyring was a big help with some questions that I had when I did my D.I’s. I was inspired when I saw that he had done a pair. The results are astonishing compared to stock. |
@ rushfan71 - bravo, you used some good quality components. Dyna Mat is a great product. I've never played with No Rez, just read though that it needs to be used carefully? https://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/159754/installed-no-rez-on-back-and-sides-removed-from-sides Can you put up (even if temporary) a system page with the upgrades you’ve done? I’d like to see the upgraded vs stock as well?? |
millercarbon I had a flexible car that I autocrossed at Porsche meets in Tennessee. The track was a highly banked oval with cones down the straights, and a big drop off into the center X section that made it a figure eight. My Supercharged MR2 actually wore the paint off of the door sills, because the body flexed so much that the door rubbed on it. This was the bane of the SC MR2, because they only came with T-tops. BTW, I did have a fast time of the day in my Turbo MR2. My boy had a 90 advertised hp Subaru GL with the huge Buick Riviera type rear hatch window. It beat a third of the Porsches. That was fun. |
Upgrading the passive crossover components is an excellent idea. It’s always resulted in substantive gains in my experience. But the ultimate upgrade would be an active crossover. That presents a whole new level of complication and expense (like the need for a channel of amplification for each transducer section of each speaker) but results in significant improvement in sound vs passive in my experience. I’ve only played with this on two-way speakers, but I’m sure it will show even more of a difference in 3+ crossover section speakers. What I built for my experiment is a DIY system designed by Nelson Pass. https://www.firstwatt.com/pdf/art_diy%20biamp_6-24_%20crossover.pdf https://diyaudiostore.com/products/diy-biamp-6-24-crossoverYou can add additional crossover points by using multiple boards and interconnecting them. That’s going to be my next experiment. Now, if I am ever brave enough to attempt this on my Ulfs remains to be seen. Not because I would be afraid to do it... I would be afraid my wife would divorce me if I touched those speakers! Great work Millercarbon. Kudos to you for taking this leap. |
danvignau, One of my best students, Mark Dennie, had a 79 Targa that was his daily and track car. It remained his daily for more than a decade of autocross and track. I hope to move to TN one day. No worries tespilot, there would already be photo's if this site made it easy to put em up when posting. I have one of the parts laid out all nice and new, and will take another before installing, when they are all wrapped in goo. The only thing about doing it this way, honestly don't know which will be the greater effect, the caps, resistors and inductors or the Quantum of Solace Krissy TDF? Either way it is hard to imagine anything but awesomeness coming out of the Mighty Moabs after this! I look forward to standing corrected, rushfan71, because if you are right astonished it will be. Awesome is overrated and overused anyway. ;) pet60, thanks for reading. That was back when I was putting even more energy into Porsche and being a skilled driver than goes today into audio and being a skilled listener. Both are perishable commodities, something my 911 lets me know real quick every time we go out after too long apart. |