so i think what i am going to be doing is continue to listen to the black system on the background. Right now i have it connected to my OLED TV just to watch regular tv and allow it to clock in more hours and break in faster. i also just let it play music in the background all day long. I will then go different shoot outs each weekend and see what is happening with the sound. Will i prefer the ref 10/hegel or the ref10/pass over the black system? we shall see... i plan on sticking to everything for about 4 to 6 weeks before i decide which system i prefer and potentially sell the system that i feel is not my #1.
My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
20,890 responses
I’d love to hear your thoughts on the Gryphon. I thinks it’s to the more detailed, cooler, dynamic side of neutral like the Black. I’d love to see how it compares to the Ref 10 and Black. Whenever you can pick up any of the top BAT pre-amps, digital or tube, but especially the Rex 2, I’d love to hear how those compare. 👍 |
sounds good. So tonight i have been sitting down listening to the black system for about 2 hours at about 90-92 db. I love what it is doing, but i don’t know if it is me who is just tired or my ears are tired. It was a huge soundstage that is almost unreal. I don’t know if maybe it is my silver cables ? maybe the silver power cords? i now want to do the same exercise tomorrow but using the ref10/pass. i want to see what happens to my ears after 2 hours of listening. Also, i think i may have to bring my last weapon... The last amp in a box which is the simaudio 860a. Now that amp is never harsh, or anything like it. It is crazy detailed with a ton of smoothness. I am going to be so damn mad if i find that the simaudio/ref10 combo is the best out of the bunch here after listing for a few hours |
I agree with chazzzy007 on the Gryphon Diablo 300. I have one running Focal Sopra 3s and a Chord Dave DAC. Highly detailed, with a deep sound stage and very dynamic. I also have a Classe SSP 800 that use for movies. I find that the Diablo brings movies to life more than any other amp I’ve ever had(used for left and right channel. I have a Krell TAS for the other 5 channels). I’m excited to hear what you think of it. |
News: oppo will stop production of their Blu-ray players. They are going to file for chapter 11.... tough industry to be in guys. Video is so hard to stay on top. Tvs change so fast and Blu-ray players as well. Oppo just couldn’t keep up with sony, lg, Panasonic etc. Those monsters mass produce players for very little and oppo can’t survive off of us audiophile people. They simply can’t. Sad news but expect to see a ton of oppo players flooding the market by the end of the month. |
On the Gryphon... I think we will find that @ between 14-16K on the used market it offers quite a bit of value on the high end scale and will compare reasonably well with the Black. To be sure the Black will be on a different level but for 1/3 of the Black price I think we will get in the same ballpark performance. We shall see... On cables. Sounds like next week it will be to to put in some copper interconnects to see how much that will darken the Black's presentation. @rshad0000 I have a BAT VK-6200 amp and I like it fir the same reasons you like the Gryphon. It's just on the warm side of Neutral versus your Gryphon's slightly cooler presentation. On Oppo... Wow, a very sad day for videophiles and entry-level audiophiles. I just bought a Modwright 205, and it's being delivered tomorrow. Wonder who will pick up that Mantle? Panasonic is releasing a 205 level Player in the Fall. The DP-UB9000. We'll see how that turns out. |
Unless something happened since last night...OPPO is NOT going out of business. Just shutting down that line of business....which is why they will still be servicing all the OPPO players they have made for the past 2 decades. Actually I think people will be BUYING them up since there is no alternative for Multi-Channel/Blu Ray/SACD Players as of right now. I purchased some new spares yesterday. Why would anybody be ditching something that would make a portion of their collection obsolete?? There are plenty of QUAD Freaks in this hobby...with their own websites/forums I might add. |
People think that a 50k equipment shud sound better than a 40k eqpt, and 40k better than 30k so on and so forth. What logic is this? What has sound got to do with selling price ? When an equipment sells well above its actual parts costs, its the design that determines how it sounds not price. Without skimping on parts, actual cost of any preamp in the world shud not exceed 1k . Hence, any 2k preamp can comfortably compete in sound with any 200k preamp. |
Cars are entirely different technologically and the luxury trims, brands etc. put into it. Electronic Amps and preamps are simply a bunch of electronic parts put together by a particular topology. Its parts count wud not exceed 1kusd regardless of what u put in it. Open up any preamp, pass, arc, fm, burmester, sony, there are so little parts in it. |
Update: I just plugged my simaudio this morning. It has been on for about 12 hours and I fired up the ref 10. My impressions: 1. Good synergy and amazing smoothness. 2. Amazing detail, mids, lows. 3. Great soundstage. I then proceeded to try the black system with the same song: 1. Massive soundstage. 2. Spooky detail that almost makes you feel like it walks around the living room. 3. Just a tad shouty at times. Not sure if it’s due to it not being broken in. That said let’s remember the simaudio is only warming up. It should be ready to fire on all cylinders by Friday. Man, the black system is so impressive but what I love about it is almost what gives me a tad of fatigue after long sessions. It’s like loving a good old beer and drinking it but you want to keep drinking it until you’re sick to your stomach and almost puking. That’s the best analogy I can find. I need to figure out a way to get the Wilsons to tame down just a tad. I still have so many things up my sleeve like cabling, using the resistors the speakers come with. Etc. A lot left to try before I make a true assessment of the black system. I am just crazy about how massive it sounds. I swear I feel sometimes as if have surround speakers when playing it. I love it and hate it at times. |
@whitecamaross I am not sure you can do this, but I would like to suggest you stay with 1 system for " a time ", let it break in, listen to lots of your favorite music, and relax. No hurry to listen to another system just moments after 1 or 2 songs. I feel you are stressing yourself ( this is what I am reading in your recent posts ). I also feel that you have a need to report your findings to many of the readers here. I know you started this way, but, you really don't. One thing I admire about most professional reviewers ( whether I believe them or not ), is that they typically live with the equipment they are reviewing for much longer periods of time, than you seem to be. I feel this extended listening is the correct way. You have been going at this like a race car driver, lol. I mean no offense in what I am saying, but for me, a good system should just flow, and allow you to become involved. Don't be in a rush. Relax and try to enjoy. With all my admiration and sincerity, MrD |
You are correct. I totally agree with what you said above. That said, I can’t stay with something for 3 or 5 months. This means I’d be reviewing 3 amplifiers a year lol update: I unplugged the black system monoblocks from the p20 and went straight into the outlets. I find the system to have less of a “in your face “ sound. Less shouty. |
jafant was asking about the Bel Canto Black EX integrated when we get it in. Well, we just received the first one in Canada. Even with only a few hours, I'm incredibly impressed! Like whitecamaross said with the ACI 600 and full Black System, the Black EX provides the best bass I've heard in my system with the ATC SCM40 speakers. The overall sound is very large and effortless. I have experience with the ACI 600 in a couple of client systems, but not in my own system. First impression is that this piece probably gets you a lot of the way there in terms of the ACI 600 performance. Of course, the Bel Canto Black ACI 600 integrated will be a little better yet, but for sure the Bel Canto Black EX is playing in a very high league. It will be interesting to hear how this piece progresses with break-in. |
Hello @whitecameross.... It was a good idea to unplug the Bel Canto Black from P20 and feed it directly from the AC outlets. I recommend that you feed it directly from AC for the next couple months, until break-in is almost complete. only at that point it might be interesting to evaluate the effect of power conditioning on it. I suggest you may want to try a Shunyata conditioner such as Denali.... Shunyata is considered one of few companies at the forefront of power conditioning technology.... Needless to say, conditioners need to be broken in as well.... My past experience with Shunyata Triton suggest that break-in of Shunyata conditioners might take about 500 hours. Regards, Guido |
@mrdecibel - well and nicely said, and I do agree about the value of a reviewer that spends months on a product to allow sufficient break in and evaluation of a product. That is one form of reviewing that I do appreciate. This thread, in my opinion, is a different kind of reviewing process, and another one that adds value for me. It's more of a journey, chocked full of product comparisons and descriptions of sonics. Yes, the pace is quicker, but that is part of the excitement. Dave |
Update: I left the pass labs and ref10 on for 2 hours before I began to play music. Long story short, the pass labs 350.8 does not have the level of detail and low volume that the simaudio 860a does. I listened to about 10 songs and I always chose the simaudio. I think the pass amp needs to be cranked up in order to shine. I just think that the simaudio has more usable power that lives right in the sweet spot where I listen. Yes, if I crank up the pass labs to say 95 dB then the pass 350.8 may be better. I can see be pass 350.8 be a better choice for anyone who has a huge room or hungry speakers. I don’t see any benefit in owning the pass 350.8 if you listen at <93db. I think it’s actually a waste of muscle if you listen at low volume. The simaudio has more detail and smoothness at low levels. With that said, I will probably be selling my 350.8. It’s excellent but for my particular set up just does not make any sense. I won’t be blasting music at 95dbs for hours nor do i own power hungry speakers. If you all own hungry speakers like Magnepan, or rockports etc then yes I’d choose the 350:8. I’ve learned quite a bit here from this exercise. The main thing has been understanding which amp sounds better within the level you listen at. I love loudness but I don’t blast music for extended periods because I get ear fatigue. Will be looking for a new home for my 350.8 soon. aside from that, the black system continues to impress. At low volume, it’s the best thing I’ve heard period. I have managed to tame down the shouty feeling it was giving me at first when I cranked it up. Tomorrow I will crank it up after not doing so for the last 5 days. The ref10 and simaudio is a deadly combo though. That’s a killer synergy in every way and it is actually closer in sound to the black system than the Hegel or the pass were. |
You might also want to try swapping out the tubes that came with the REF 10 and substituting Gold Lions. According to MANY Ref 10 owners this is a significant improvement. Might be worth the investment before you ditch the REF 10 for a 3rd time and find out later that you missed out on an improvement of that magnitude. |
Although what you suggested makes sense, I’m comparing how things come. I don’t feel like making a 4,000 dollar investment on tubes that I won’t be able to get out of if I decide to part ways with the ref 10. Update: today I blasted things to about 95-98db. Black system is just too difficult to best by the ref10. I can’t seem to be able to dethrone it regArdless of how hard I try. I will update this thread later tonight. I did a great experiment and I’d like for everyone to chime in and tell me what their thoughts are. |
@whitecamaross Right now you're liking the Black more plugged straight into the outlet, but all you're doing is raising the noise floor with the electrical grunge which is softening the highs but also smearing the subtle sonic details. I use balanced power and I get the same effect when I A/B though the balanced power vs outlet. The Black is just bright at the moment. If you keep the Black you may need to find some good copper interconnects or cables or both. The Copper will warm up the sound vs the silver you have now which is much more neutral or maybe even a bit cool depending on what you are using. I'd suggest trying a good Copper IC first before adding speaker cables as well, but wait a bit longer, 400-500 hours before you change out any cables. Your Black still need lots of break in time. Looking forward to you auditioning the Gryphon. 👍 |
Thanks for all the feedback guys. I love reporting everything so you guys can use it to make your own purchases. One thing that is making me mad is that I’ve had a problem with music stuttering when using tidal. I noticed it happens sooner when I skip songs. It feels as if the music doesn’t buffer fast enough and my internet is not slow. According to the speed test it is about 90 mbps yet it’s slow buffering music at times. Today I went out and bought a arris 8200 modem which cost me $200 dollars at Best Buy. I Was told the issue was the modem and not the router (I own an Apple airport express) so I bought a modem but after doing my listening today, the problem came back. What baffles me is that my black system, lumin s1 are connected via Ethernet straight into the router and yet they stutter occasionally? Anyone have this same issue? Is it my Apple router ? I’ve heard Apple routers are solid and mine has never given me an issue but it’s 3 years old. Not sure if I should return my modem and put them the old modem and buy another better router instead ? Let me know your thoughts please. Thanks ! |
Regarding Gryphon driving Wilson, seen this thread? https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/new-wilson-alexia-mkii-listening-session My Gryphon with DAC module is paired with Dynaudio and I wouldn't call it "cool" sounding. Is dead on neutral, mostly depending on source materials and what your pair the amp with. |
UPDATE: So i wanted to throw this curve ball at you all. I decided to use the black system's DAC/PREAMP as a dac and feed it via CHEAP CHEAP rca interconnects and went into INPUT 1 on the ref 10. I then connected the lumin S1 via expensive wireworld gold eclipse 7 XLR cables into INPUT 2. I proceeded to open the belcanto app and cued up a song and then opened up the lumin app and cued up the same exact song. I proceeded to match volume levels on both sources so that the ref 10 sounds exactly at the same volume level on both inputs. I pushed play on both songs for both sources and i began to listen. I switched between input 1 (belcanto is connected to it) and input 2 (lumin s1) and went back and forth repeatedly and listened to the same exact song. Well guys, i did not hear a damn thing different. The SAME EXACT sound, detail. soundstage, etc. There was NOT a single thing better between both. My takeaway? the black system's amplifiers have the expensive dacs inside them and the preamp/dac has a simple dac so you can use it as a preamp. Upon doing my research, yep i was correct. The black system's expensive dacs reside inside the amplifier's chassis. Anyhow, i began to listen to the ref10/simaudio combo at some pretty serious levels and then switched to the black system and here are 2 things that stood out to me: 1. the ref10/simaudio has a huge soundstage that can come extremely close to the black system's, but the song has to be recorded this way. 2. The black system's presentation is far superior to the ref10/simaudio with poor recordings and/or material. One thing i wanted to mention to you guys that aren't too familiar with the black system is that the black system is 100% digital. It does not use xlr or rca connections between its dac/preamp and the amps. It uses ST FIBER OPTIC cables so the entire signal from the preamp/dac to the amps stays in the digital domain. |
I heard recently Monitor Audio PL 500 with a whole set of electronics of Simaudio, pre 740P, power 860A, cd-drive 260D, Dac's neo 380 + 780 DSD Mind. While it was a very smooth presentation without any harshness, it was lacking in almost every other aspect; resolution, dynamics, LF and HF extension, recessed mids including voices, very average IMHO. The PL 500 can sound very clearly better than this, unless of course you like it this smoothy way. The poweramp was for sure not the most powerful out there. So I suppose your setup with the ARC Ref 10 will benefit with something more powerful than the 860A, lets say indeed eg. The Gryphon, D'Agostino's, maybe Constellation. Enjoy. |
"One thing i wanted to mention to you guys that aren't too familiar with the black system is that the black system is 100% digital. It does not use xlr or rca connections between its dac/preamp and the amps. It uses ST FIBER OPTIC cables so the entire signal from the preamp/dac to the amps stays in the digital domain. " This is where the Blacks universal sound quality from bad to good recordings is coming from . There are two other manufacturers that I know of that are doing this . Lyngdorf and Exogal . |
@whitecamaross I am a long-time user of Audiogon to buy and sell gear, but I don't pay too close attention to these forums and hardly ever post anything. I have to say though, that I love this thread and am now in the habit of looking at it almost daily to check for updates. The way you describe what you're hearing is similar to thoughts going through my head when I'm comparing pieces of equipment. Keep up the great work! You can count me as one of your latest followers. I used to own Bel Canto back in the days when they were using Tripath, and later, ICEpower technology. (I'm fascinated by Class D amplifiers.) I really liked that gear overall, and I can only imagine how good the Black system must be given it's superior technology and higher price point. I've also owned some Wilson speakers, the latest being the Sabrina. Have head some extremely impressive demos of Sasha 2's but unfortunately don't have the room for them. |
Just an opinion here but I personally can’t very well judge the nuances of component and cable changes in less than a few weeks. Aural memory always in play. I really don’t mean to be critical but what you’re doing doesn’t sound like fun. Obviously you have a strong following which is great but your hearing is vastly superior to mine if you can keep up with all the permutations involved. You’re playing at a level where it’s all good. I wish you the best and hope that you are having fun. I’d be close to nuts for sure. BTW you’ll like the Rowland. Amazing low key designer. Built like jewelry. Another unsolicited recommendation is to audition with a familiar system a ML 523 pre. As a 61 year old obsessed audiophile I’ve never heard anything as musical except the latest generation Dartzeel. I was truly surprised as hell. |
Hello @whitecamaross, wonderful that you might try out the Rowland M625 S2. The original M625 was already a wonderful power amp that I had in my system for one year, before to upgrading to M725, and then my current M925 monos. M625 S2 is a relatively high bias class A/B design. It is much enhanced over the original version.... Essentially it has new internals.... I know about a few of the changes.... Jensen 4-pole capacitors have been added to the 1200W power supply section to smooth any residual ripples post conversion to DC.... All boards have been upgraded from fiberglass to Roger(TM) ceramic types, power rating increased from 300W to 330W.... But most important of all, M625 S2 is the first amp to which Rowland has introduced brand new circuitry that he has developed to reduce distortions to levels below what Jeff is even able to measure with his equipment. I have not heard S2 in my system, but all reports I have heard from users have been extremely favorable. One word of caution... All Rowland amps require significant break-in. My M625 stabilized around the 1K hours mark. Even if the unit you get were already broken in, I would want to give it a few weeks of re-break-in in order to bring it back to its top performance. I recommend against plugging it into the P20 conditioner. Rowland amps feature hefty Power Factor Corrected (PFC) AC2DC rectifiers, and these do not play well with many conditioners, particularly the ones that do AC power regeneration. Saluti, G. |
@guidocorona It has been stated by whitecamaross that nothing he will own will ever get that much break in time. With proper break in, we ( well some of us, anyway ) will truly hear what a product can do with musical playback. I do not think this op is listening to music. He is listening to equipment. Nothing wrong with that, as, this is what an audiophile does. Just my take. |
Hi @mrdecibel, you and I seem to be sharing similar concerns. I have also pointed out multiple times that some of this fine equipment takes a long time to reach their full bloom... And thus, those who seek their true music-making magic, need to be, yes... Excruciatingly patient. For all intents and purposes, these behave like acoustic musical instruments... And like so many acoustical musical instruments, ranging from violins, cellos, pianos, etc... They undergo a prolonged period of break-in, where the tone gradually evolves and blooms. Perhaps a little different with horns, where most of the break-in is in the nimbleness of mechanical parts rather than the tone of the horn. The good news is that, while a brand new cello might take a few years to yield its true gold, a top flight amp can reach top performance in a mere matter of months. Regards, G. |
ricred1, hard to flip?? Why would you want to flip a great amp anyway? I don't think Rowlands are any harder to 'flip' than any other brand...and IME, actually easier than most! Naturally selling your gear depends on the price asked...lol. OTOH, if you are stating that they are 'hard to flip' once you own them, due to how great they are, then yes...that I would agree with..;0) |