My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!

kren0006,

I actually considered an ARC class D power amp many years ago.  It was one of the first serious class D amps from a prestigious company.  I read some reviews, so their characterization of the ARC as typical of their mildly warmish sound philosophy turned me away.  Way back in the early 80's, I borrowed an ARC SP6B tube preamp.  It had much more definition than my Frank Van Alstine modded Dyna PAS 3 preamp, with much more neutrality.  I delighted that tubes can be neutral and detailed, although my later Theta tube preamp was better for these qualities. Still, ARC coined an excellent trademark, High Definition, indeed.

5 years ago, Steve let me borrow his Luxman M600A power amp, a stereo 30W/ch pure class A.  It had excellent clarity and neutrality, but was a little fuzzy at times.  It weighed 60 lbs, a lot for only 30 watts/ch.  So I believe you that the Luxman integrated would probably be a step up from your ARC.  Don't rely on store auditions to make a decision--you must try it at home.

Seeing how my Rouge competed in several ways with Jay's Mystery amp, and how the LSA Voyager may have HF that have more finesse and elegance than my Rouge, I am surmising that the LSA Voyager would be a hit for most of this group, and seriously compete on all levels with the Mystery amp, offering much the same type of sound.  Too bad Jay sold the Mystery amp before anyone had a chance to send him the Voyager.  I still maintain that the Voyager at $3K could be at least the equal of the G Essence, Boulder 1160 for you.  If you don't need additional gain from a preamp, you could get the passive preamp (Luminous, very cheap) which mrdecibel has found superior to any active preamp he tried.  Use it with the Voyager power amp, and you have a budget preamp/power amp for less than $4K which probably outperforms anything else you are considering at 10x that price.

WC,

On my first listen, I really liked #1 as it was playing and didn't like #2 when it first started.  However, as #2 went along, I think I might like #2 better.   I'll need to listen again and in a better environment, but that's my first pass on the video.

Dave

Play-back music listening will never be a lived event...

But acoustic and psycho-acoustical room control could do some miracles no change of amplifier or dac or even speakers so good they are will REPLACE...

Then i am ok with your post and observation but remember that all audio thread i ever read UNDERESTIMATE completely acoustic and psycho acoustic power...

The piano i listen to in my room is not the piano of the lived event... Trade-off choices by the recortding engineer make this impossible and to this we must add all the limitations related to our specific gear and room...

"Neutrality" concept like i already said here for example is an ENGINEERING concept not an acoustic and psycho-acoustic concept especially in SMALL room.... Our vocabulary is distorted by the way engineer tested their skills and products... Music come from specific gear yes, but more than that comes from specific room designed ONLY for specific speakers and in a small room designed BY AND FOR specific ears...A small room acoustic has nothing to do with a great hall acoustic...

Much is unknown or not well known in small room acoustic because great hall acoustic or amphiteather acoustic is millenias years old, small room acoustic is born only with personal audiophile system demands DECADES ago...Even acoustician debate about this between between themselves.. Why? because the use of optimal reverberation time and the timing of the first frontwaves for our two different ears, and the optimal balance between necessary reflections,diffusion and absorbtion in each location of the room, ask much for tailor-made and CUSTOM made solutions than standardized general ready made one....

In a SMALL room, the material acoustic properties content of the room, his geometry, his topology and the way the room react to the speakers for the specific ears of the owner are very complex phenomenon...It is the crux and key of audio experience, nevermind the cost and quality of the gear itself, acoustic matter at the same level than the choice of the amplifier or dac or speakers for sure....Especially in small room...

Acoustic is the sleeping princess and all the working pieces of gear are the 7 working dwarves... We kiss the princess with our ears to awake her to his true power....

By the way i am not a musician nor an acoustician, only a regular dude thinking how to create my own system at low cost by obligation...All of what i say is only my experience  and opinion...Feel free to criticize or resize it more optimally...

As viber will attest to, the violins he is listening to from his best recordings, sound far from live. The body tone of the instruments, have been lost; the dynamics have been lost; the musicians positioning on a stage, have been lost ( all compared to an actual event ). Everything we listen to ( recorded ) is far from live. So I do the best I can to get all of this back, ( we all do ), but I listen for one specific thing more than any other. I listen to the musicians " playing / singing " ; to their " artistry "; to the " connection " between them, and me. This is beyond the tone, the space, the coherence ( whatever ), we are trying to capture. I am not sure many of you know what I am talking about, which if you do not, is very unfortunate. However I feel a handful of you, do. Anyway, I did not want to sound negative.....just realistic. Enjoy ! the holidays and all, be well. Always, MrD.

Thanks fazee. I already have! Not on my speakers, but at a dealer on Wilson SabrinaX with Chord dac. I preferred the $10k 509x to an ARC separates LS28 and VT 80se stack at a combined $20k on that system. My decision with Luxman will come down to the class A 590 or new 595 versus the AB 509

kren0006,

I have got the Luxman L509X Integrated Amp for a little over  a year now and love them to bits, paired with my Magico A3 and Laufer Teknik Memory Player 64, it is a decent set up that I am really enjoying for a long time to come. Would recommend you audition the 509. 

Choose which cable do you prefer:

OCD Mikey's Verrastar or one of mine?

You would perhaps be interested to know that my integrated amp is class D. Audio Research class D, believe it or not. About 10 years old. It was the first and only solid state integrated amp that ARC ever made. Fully internally developed class D circuits, no 3rd party modules. Runs cool and weighs about 40 lbs. I like it a lot, but a top Luxman integrated will be a nice step up for that system when the time comes.

kren0006,

A lot of your stuff really IS high end.  I've heard original Spendor mini monitors, although not your model.  I trust your description of it as displaying good clarity, and I would probably much prefer it to the hyped, expensive Sonus Faber line, which is noted for its warmth.  I wouldn't listen to SF if you paid me.  Much expensive stuff is really mediocre.  So is cheap stuff.  You have to be diligent to find great stuff that is cheap, but it exists.  

Class D is a great place to go for excellent (if not SOTA) sound at a very cheap price.  GaN's relative warmth is suited to you, and I'm confident that if you compare some GaN's to what you already own, and do A/B's with warmish Gryphon Essence and Boulder for about 10x the price, you will be impressed.  

Come on Jay, you've already tried the Simaudio stuff.  Now that you value neutrality, this is a great opportunity to A/B the Benchmark AHB2 (Prince Neutral) with your King Neutral amp.  The AHB2 is a unique case of class H, or some unusual feed-forward technology that has been around a long time.  It is not class D, but its sound quality, compactness and price make it very compelling to see whether BIG BIG buck amps significantly improve upon it in every sonic parameter.

Most anyone sourcing an amp/speakers of this magnitude  understand the liabilities; including weight...how many of us have placed LARGE speakers in small rooms?  Many choices in audio, buy what fits and suits your wallet and fancy.  

Enjoy,

Jose

No prejudice against inexpensive amps here. The two amps in my main two systems have msrp $6k (an integrated) and $9k (separates). (which on this thread is nothing). But I want to go forward, not backwards or sideways, and this thread/channel is about the hi end (so my stuff not really relevant here).

I keep my stuff for many years and do extensive auditioning before purchasing anything, so I’m always fairly certain that I’m getting what I like best whenever I do.

And the DAW and $30k separates are way down the road, if at all. Right now I’m focusing on a Luxman integrated, as I said, but at least that’s worthy of mention here, as WC has raved about them. That’s the only thing that’s relatively near term for me, but even that may be a ways off. Luckily, I’m extremely happy with my systems in their present form, so I’m good.

Switching gears, I wanted to mention that I totally agree with maghister on something he posted a couple of pages back: "The most important acoustical factor to test when assessing a system S.Q. is the basic essential one: ’Timbre tonal playing perceived surface and volume micro-structure’"

Dude’s posts are insufferably long, but there is often a lot of good info in there - <thumbs up>. The purity and love of music that he has, with inexpensive gear that he has put a lot of effort into, is pretty infectious

I’ve got the vac 450 monos which by the way I have not even heard with my master vac preamp yet. Yes, I’ve been so busy that I’ve yet to hear my full vac set up. I’ve been spending a ton of time with the other amps. I also recently purchased a simaudio 860v2 again and working on a few other amps. More things to come soon including my best of 2021 video. 

kren0006,

Before you spend $30K, have an open mind what the new GaN may do for you--lots of very affordable ones to consider as ricevs mentioned. You and Jay just didn’t like the HF quality of my Rouge, but Jay was surprised at its bass and dynamic performance which rivaled anything he has owned for these qualities. You would definitely like the $15K Merrill 114 I heard, and the $3K Voyager is probably competitive sonically. Overcome your prejudice against very cheap stuff. Just read the long LSA Voyager thread. If someone likes neutrality, the $3K Benchmark is tops in that area. I challenged Jay to get it and do an A/B of that with his King Neutral new amp. But since you like clarity allied with some warmth, I can’t think of a better amp than the Voyager that you should try. To risk $600 or $450 if the restocking fee is only 15%, is much safer than getting your interim Luxman integrated which you will take a much bigger loss on when you sell or trade it for Gryphon Essence, etc.

Note that I have zero business interests in the Voyager, so I am not biased. As daveyf just said, buy sound, not weight and bling jewelry.

Yes Xlf coming in multiple pieces. 

@jays_audio_lab Don’t your XLF’s break down into several modules each weighing considerably less? Most speakers these days are able to be moved around a lot easier than some of these dead weight amps with sharp edges. Sure there are a few that cannot, like Magico’s as an example....but even these come with wheels.

I fail to see why one has to pay so much for the snazzy casing and other accoutrements that really add nothing to the SQ, but a lot to the cost and the weight. The D’Ag amps and the Boulder you mention are a very good example of this line of marketing.

My dac weight is a few ounces...

Minimalistic design with the fewest number of components...

I will not mention the cost i pay for it here even under torture...

😊😊😊😊

Yes, there is.....there is a way around it. Build your own speakers. You can make an open baffle speaker with 4 15 inch woofers on each side on a separate super dead and braced baffle and have another open baffle next to it with your dipole mids and tweeter. The woofer panel would not be over 100 lbs and the mid/tweet panel half as much. This mid 90s senstivity speaker could be bi or tri amped with amps directly behind the panels and the speaker wires....would be wired directly from inside the amps to the voice coil wires of the speakers (never been done before in the history of audio). This speaker would sound better than Jay’s speaker and cost you like $15-20K including two three channel modded amps, speaker wires, drivers and baffles. Yes, there is a way around it.......those heavy boxes are boat anchors....he he.

Check out this page for ideas and one pictured example using planar drivers and servo 12s.  You can make your panels as sexy as you like......this man did not care that much how they looked.

http://tweakaudio.com/EVS-2/Speaker_ideas.html

Have fun......we are meant to..

This is no different than owning 700 lb Wilson XLF... Big toys weigh a lot and there is no way around it. You know how much the boulder 3050 weigh? 450 lbs each...

Approximate weight of above mentioned class D amps:

Stereo LSA......22lbs

Strereo VTV with new high powered Purifi modules.....12lbs

AGD Audion's    6 lbs each

The new unreleased Mytek stereo amp .....15-20 lbs?

Atma-Sphere 100 watt a channel mono amps.....15lbs each?

Other great class D amps......like Orchard Ultra GaN stereo....maybe 15-20 lbs.

You can do multiple reps with these babies......take them to your buddy's house to compare, etc.....less heat.....less money......very, very good sound.

I would mention the Cherry amps (great sounding and not very expensive).........but Tom at Cherry just died from Covid.....so not sure it they will be available.  This happened suddenly......please get your shots.....could save your life....or someone elses.

https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=179605.0

Stay safe and happy.

Owning an amp that is impossible for one person to lift and move around easily is now a no no for me ( and yes, i do own such an amp). The idea of a 350 lb amp that needs a jack to be lifted, or moved around,IMHO is a dumb idea. While the amp may sound like heaven, the fact that it has this non-user friendly aspect is more than off-putting. I guess there are folks who won’t care about this, since the sharp edges that will slice your hands and the sheer weight that will break your back won’t be an issue for you with the hired help, BUT for everyone else???

If you can afford anything.....then yes, go for it. However, the average Audiophile has maybe 20K in the entire system.

GaN amps are not warm....they are not cool,....they are not dry....because of the use of GaNs. The output device in a class D amp is a switch.....not a normal amplifier. The sound of a class D amp has to do with many many things. Mostly it is only as good as the designer is TWEAK......ie....he listens. Most all modules made by manufacturers of class D are designed by engineers that are not tweakers. The reason why the AGD class D amps sound so good is that the guy who designed it actually listens. The LSA modules were listened to by a bunch of people over time....so has SOME tweaking going on. The AGD as lots of tweaking going on. The AGD amps are the new class D reference from evreything I have read. Jay should get in a pair of the $7500 Audion’s just for fun to see how they perform. Of course, 80 watts into 8 and 150 into 4 might be a problem. The new higher powered module from Pufifi is coming out next month and is suppose to sound better......a tweaked version with discrete input stages (around $2500 for fully modded stereo amp) version of that could be very exciting (no GaNs in the Purifi). The $6K new Mytek GaN amp might be good but Mytek is not that tweaky.....so well see about tthat one. The $5300 mono block GaN amps from Atma-Sphere are out in small quantities and he claims everyone who has gotten one is in love....we shall see. You see, there are lots of options for those that cannot afford the big guns but do not want a tube amp......lots of options.....and class D is one of them.

GaN transistor are a better switch...faster with less overshoot....so, everything being equal then the use of GaNs should make a better sounding amp.  However, everything is not equal.  One part does not make a whole.  Everything has to be done to the nth degree for perfection to happen.  GaNs are not a revolution.....just a better part that CAN help the overall sound.  It is up to the designer/tweaker/listener to optmize his product for best sound.  

May you be always filled with joy.

Gryphon Essence has been the star of 2021. I never saw that coming. I have been vocal with those who own it. There is no better amp under 25k (that I’ve owned) that beats it.

You’d have to spend 40k+ MSRP to top it.

Some of the people who I’ve helped through my consultation service have been looking for one on the used market and can’t find one. Another great amp is the simaudio 860v2. It would probably be the best amp under 20k if I had not owned the essence. Don’t disregard the 860v2 because it is quite awesome too. It throws a huge sound and awesome bass control.

Word on the street is that Gryphon is getting to release a new quarter million dollar statement amp to come after that tier group of amps (relentless, boulder 3050, ch 10 series, etc)

Over 350 lbs per mono... I’d do just about anything to get my hands on one of those. Nothing excites me more than Sherman tanks that walk through concrete walls like if they were made from cardboard. We always hear class d, class d, class d, etc and then gryphon does this 250k amp and silence enters the room because there is no answer for something like it. It’s as if it slams the door in the faces of those who believe class d has everything needed to kill cost no object class a amps. We all know that isn’t true (not yet anyway). 

I wonder if someone will ever build a cost no object class d amp that doesn't have the excuses of " oh it didn't best that class a amp because it is far more money, but it got close enough almost to the point of defeating it"

My answer is: "it don't matter if you win by an inch or a mile... Winning is winning"

Probably not Luxman separates, but maybe something like Gryphon Essence and a REF6SE (which would be more than $30k but you get idea).  I'm pretty confident that would destroy any $3k amp, though of course I haven't heard the one you're talking about.

The better separates could include the LSA Voyager GaN for $3k instead of Luxman for $30k.  The only risk for the Voyager is a re-stocking fee of about $600, so you will want to audition it from a private source.  Not a bad proposition even with the re-stocking fee, considering the overwhelming value that it represents.  Contact yyz for his further thoughts, although he sold his modded Voyager to cascadesphil I think.  So you can contact cascadesphil.  Either of them, and the numerous posters on that LSA thread will give you lots of info.

Nah, my next target is a Luxman integrated (590axii, 509x, or 595ase) for the Spendors. When I eventually get to Sasha DAW hopefully down the road, then at that level maybe some better separates in the $25-30k ballpark but that'll be a six-figure system which isn't in the cards just yet

kren0006,

I have reservations about the new GaN.  It seems tempting from the tech talk, but I found the Merrill 114 very warm compared to my Mytek Pascal based amp, and Rouge IceEdge.  I surmise that the majority of this group and many of Jay's YT listeners might have found the Merrill preferable to his Mystery amp because of the former's high degree of warmth.  This warmth wasn't grossly euphonic as with tube amps, and the Merrill still had decent clarity. 

Another example is the new LSA Voyager GaN (see that thread).  I never heard it.  YYZ owned it, liked it, but still found it warm compared to his Benchmark AHB2 which he still says has the highest neutrality and clarity of any amp he has tried.

Since you seem to want warmish amps to go with your Spendor speakers, you should strongly consider the Voyager GaN.  At $3k, it probably would beat everything else you are considering for power, clarity combined with a little warmth, offering best sound and also great value for you.

kren0006,

I have long thought about whether musical information is passing over my head in the 1st row.  Certainly, it is reasonable to think that further back offers better balance of all the info.  So I tried many positions at various distances, and found that further back offered more balance, but that balance offered deteriorated info of everything.  All instruments were more veiled.  Just read my previous post to see what I found are the best listening positions. 

Mercury Living Presence made the best commercial recordings which offered everything I desire.  Read the interesting article by Tom Fine on page 133 of the 2nd most recent Stereophile.  His father, Howard Fine was the engineer behind those great recordings in the 1950's and 1960's, and his mother, Wilma Cozart Fine did the mastering work, transferring the analog tapes to CD after Howard died.  Howard used a single microphone 10-12 feet above the conductor's head for the mono recordings, which sound astounding for their balance AND intimate detail.  The later stereo recordings used this central mike, and a pair of spaced omni's close in front of the left and right orchestra.  The mikes were Schoeps, which had a presence peak, a form of EQ.  I was surprised to learn that no EQ was used, even though the recordings sound like EQ was used.  My Neumann mikes are like the Schoeps, so in effect they used EQ.

So when I got my EQ in 1995, my inspiration was these great sounding Mercury's, which are still considered tops.  I couldn't be intrusive with the orchestras and other ensembles I recorded, so my mike placement wasn't as ideal as from Mercury.  I think you would agree that Mercury had it right.  I did pretty well with my mike placement right behind the conductor's head.

In deference to psnyder's honest assessment of my audio choices, let me explain why I do what I do in more detail.  Today, I played Handel's Messiah in an orchestra with chorus.  As usual, I was overwhelmed by the power of the music, being immersed in it.  The singers were a few feet from me.  The immediacy of the sound brought such detail that the beauty brought tears that blurred my reading of the music in front of me.  This intimate musical experience parallels the intimacy everyone has had with close romantic encounters, so I really don't understand why anyone would prefer their music laid back from a distance.

There is no speaker that comes close to this intimate live experience.  Before I discovered EQ 25 years ago, my system was about as good as listening in the 5th row.  The best conventional electrostatics without EQ are like the 10th row.  The best dynamic speakers are like the 12th row or further removed from the stage.  The best position for listening is just over the conductor's head.  The next best I have experienced only a few times in my life, when I was standing to the left of the conductor, still immersed in the orchestra, from a standing position when I was the violin soloist.  A little comedown from that is when I still play in the orchestra from a seated position.  But the next best after that is the front row center in the audience, a significant deterioration from that.  From the 2nd row and going further away, it is all completely unacceptable by my standards.

Using EQ, I had major advances in connecting intimately with the music.  Let me be completely honest.  Even my speaker, which is the best for detail of any speaker ever made (the only competition was from the Stax F81 and original Quad 57 which both have even worse practical problems than mine), is woefully inadequate to compete with the supreme naturalness, balance and detail of the intimate live experience I described.  Judicious EQ goes a long way in getting intimate detail, even if the end result is highly flawed vs the real, intimate thing.  For example, although I described the outstanding string bass recording in the Carnival of the Animals, the live feeling where the right speaker becomes the bass instrument, is only possible with my EQ settings.  Without EQ, forget about it.  But with EQ, the buzz on the string from the bow is almost exactly like live.  The bass freq of the instruments are tight and with the proper growl, due to more revelation of the midrange and lower HF overtones.  

I have no doubt that someone with interest in getting more musical revelation from most speakers could convert their dull 15th row sound into 5th row sound using judicious EQ.  There would be certain tonal anomalies, but carefully done these anomalies are far preferable to the 10 blankets of veil without EQ.  

Yeah we joke around but it’s all in fun. 
 

viber, will you be upgrading your Mytek to the new Mytek release that ricevs mentioned that is due out soon, and what about all the musical information that is lost on a first row seat in a staged venue???

There you go I’m teeing it right up for you to go on about why first row seat is the best. I say much info is lost there because it passes over the listeners head 

I would like to add that Viber's knowledge of Classical music is excellent and though I never commented publicly, I thought his recommendations on "introductory level" music were superb.  I am also a fan of classical music--decades ago, I studied cello at a high level--and I have some different "introductory level" favorites but nothing better than his. I have a current favorite Saint Saens Symphony #3 (Organ) to recommend as a solid performance but an amazing recording:  Reference Recording:  Michael Stern, Kansas City Symphony.  Viber is a fantastic resource if you want to learn about classical music, conductors, musicians, etc.  No reservations!

Clearly I feel his views and sound preferences on equipment are not in line with the majority and they would result in a dramatically inferior sounding system were the "average" listener to build a system with his recommendations:  zip cord-not high quality speaker cable, 1970's potentiometer based graphic equalizer-to artificially hype high frequencies and diminish low and mid-range, bright equipment instead of more neutral, class-D amplification in a world where very few class-D amplifiers match the capabilities of A and A/B, speaker panels with limited dynamics and little bass-even when Viber loves symphonic and concerto formats that really can't be performed at anything close to realistic levels on this style of speaker.  These are all strong recommendations from Viber and to follow them would be a mistake for many... or more likely most.

I can confidently state that his views are not in line with the majority simply because he applies varying degrees of the same EQ to nearly everything.  He even discounts digital EQ over his beloved Rane.  If he was anywhere near middle ground he would have to goose highs on some and reduce them on some.  Reduce lower midrange and bass on some and goose it on others.  He does not.  And many (perhaps even most) would not require any EQ.  He roundly criticizes great equipment as "Euphonic" and "overly warm", etc.  

According to Viber, nearly all Recording Engineers and Equipment Designers do so in a way which misses the essence of the instruments and sound.  I too have been musically trained, been involved in recording music (3 of the records I have been involved in hit Billboards Top 10 in Blues, even dislodging BB King and Eric Clapton (temporarily! from the top spots).  Of the dozens of recording engineers I have worked with, they ALL faithfully do their best to capture the sound that the musicians are creating.  ALL!  Unless the engineer was working in collaboration with the artists for a specific special effect, any engineer intentionally deviating from this would be removed.  Probably immediately.  Studio time is too expensive to mess around. 

As stated, he and I have had numerous private, off-line respectful conversations and I have applied his EQ suggestions to my system.  They turn my imminently musical system into screechy crap to my ears and again, I would suggest most listeners would feel similarly.  Decreasing 200-500 Hz range by up to 5dB and goosing 8000+ Hz by up to 12 dB.  Even then, I do not criticize his choices for him.  Only his insistence that his choices are best for everyone else.  If you are curious, I have my current system posted on "virtual systems".  

Additionally, his lack of respect of other musical tastes is narrow minded.  I absolutely use live, unamplified, acoustic instruments and recordings in my equipment evaluations.  I also use classic rock, modern rock, studio jazz and most other available genres (except rap and speed metal, which I more or less categorically avoid! lol).  Different characteristics can be learned from any of them.  Probably most important in picking recordings for evaluation is that you are familiar with the them and that you like them.  I have been using some of the same recordings for decades:  Rush-Power Windos, McCoy Tyner-NY Reunion, Sting-Brand New Day, Beethovan Egmont Overture, Brahms Symphony 4-Fritz Reiner (Chesky), Tears for Fears-Sowing the Seeds of Love.  Nothing special about this list other than I love them and have listened to each of these literally hundreds of times.  Not one recording will tell me everything I want to know about a piece of equipment, but all together and I will pretty much understand what it adds...and lacks.  If I am auditioning a piece of equipment, they will all get hit at some point in the process.

But as many people are looking to this thread for recommendations and evaluations, many of us fundamentally understand Viber's biases and preferences, but for those who are just starting out, it is important to call foul when recommendations are not in line with most others.  This is why I make such a pest of myself.  I know others agree, but just ignore him but for some deep psychological and pathological reason... I guess I can't...

And finally to Viber.  I did purposely distort your pilot analogy in an attempt at mutually, self-deprecating humor.  You constructed a straw man argument, I lit it on fire!  

Again, Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to everyone and especially to Viber!

I know all about various statistical methods and interpretation. I still appreciate psnyder’s diligent analysis. I am not offended by his efforts to "enlighten me" but view his efforts the same way I view my efforts to enlighten readers about audio and live music. Important matters bear repetition. But never cross the line by telling people they are stupid or saying their equipment got butt-kicked. The latter is mere hyperbole, but the former is just plain inappropriate behavior.

Mikem and yyz--great wisdom from both of you, well said. I just bought a new CD of Saint Saens’ "Carnival of the Animals" which also includes the Organ Symphony. The conductor is Antonio Pappano, and the 2 pianists in the shorter Carnival piece are Pappano, and the reigning greatest pianist of our times, Marta Argerich. This Carnival recording is the smaller chamber version rather than the usual large orchestral version. The chamber version enables close microphone placement, and the sound is exciting and immediate. The percussive aspect of the pianos and other instruments is a great tool for audio system assessment, and the brief solo double string bass in the right channel on track 13 (I think) is the best recording of that instrument I have ever heard. Your right speaker should "become" the bass. Even my wimpy electrostatic speakers show the tight, but deep bass. At 50-70 dB playback, it doesn’t shake the walls, but its lifelike quality is astonishing. Jay and others who may not be familiar with this piece--this is a great opportunity to learn this most popular timeless classical piece, and I promise this recording will become part of your best demo pieces. Even mediocre speakers and the stock car stereo will bring this music to life better than super systems playing typical recordings. This shows the all important benefits of great, natural recordings, like this one.

I am less impressed by the recording of the Organ Symphony, which for a large orchestra, is recorded more distantly and at a lower level to accommodate the huge dynamic contrasts between very soft parts and the loud transients of the cymbal crashes. Track 2 contains soft sustained organ bass at 35 Hz, track 4 contains loud sustained organ bass at 32 Hz.

Enjoy. Happy holidays.

You new here?  Never noticed you before. Anyway, welcome aboard

@kren0006   yeah.. it’s real easy to say non constructive insults when hiding behind the keyboard.. 

I did enjoy the statistical tutorial that psnyder attempted to enlighten Viber with, but predictably it went right over his head, like much of the music does for a first row sitter in a live venue concert.
 

Ah, that was just too easy….

@viber6 is passionate about Live music and how it has set his goals for his stereo system to sound.  Nothing wrong with that !  Trying to enlighten others is also helpful to some. Not everyone gets to go to live concerts, so getting some advice is a good thing for some. I’m sure plenty of people would want their systems to sound like Live music.. 
Yet there are so many variables when it comes to the room, equipment and the interactions, limitations, etc ..  that we make the best of what we have to work with. Viber has found a combination that works well for his tastes and goals. Thats something to shout about !  I appreciate his enthusiasm and sharing his findings. 
I personally took a different route with different gear, but with similar goals. 
Maybe someday I will refer to his experiences and try something he recommends.. Sometimes I overlook other gear because of built in prejudice, or a bad review by a trusted reviewer..  my limitations and fence sitting sometimes needs a push in another direction..  maybe his advice or Jays advice will come in handy for that missing link to get me there..  Who knows !!  But I’m thankful for the many experiences of others and their advice that might prove helpful down the road..

Keep the info coming ! 

Y’all stay safe and enjoy the Holidays and Let’s hope for  a Good New next Year for a change !!!  
Enjoy the Music and respect for the individual… 

Very cool......thank you for raising your hand.  The truth shall set us free.  So Viber has helped one person....in some way.  Hopefully, he has helped more.  Keeping the intention to be of service is what counts.  Telling your directly experienced truth without righteousness, ego and chest beating is key.   There are no "superior" people, no "inferior' people.  When we act with love everyone is beautiful and deserving and has value.  It is not being right that is important......what is REALLY important is being Loving.  The intention of Love and service is key....key to your happiness and the happiness of everyone.

Because you love everyone does not mean you let people bullcrap in front of you.  A good parent wants his/her child to grow in love.  So, non loving behavior needs to be pointed out to those that are unconscious (done with love....not making the person wrong...just the behavior).......we need to be awakened.  Sleeping Love is not pure love........it is dark......it needs to be hand and heart carried to the Light.  We are sleeping beauty.......we are the Prince.....please kiss and love yourself awake.....AND KISS AND LOVE EVERYONE AWAKE.

Peace and love indeed.  Feel the love now and all ways.

@viber6 gave me a recommendation on some symphonic music and how to listen to certain passages. I used that information to evaluate the DACs I had in the house. I ended up selling 1 of the DACs based on this evaluation.

I ended up upgrading to a new DAC that @ricevs recommended to me during a phone conversation.

How's that for peace and love. 😀

Thank you Viber for saving us from warm fuzzy components. Without your expertise and wisdom we would not know a tic from a tac......seriously, please raise your hand if Viber has helped you get better sound from your stereo. We all contibute the best we can. What is the best from/for you.....and you....and you? Look in the mirror.....everything is a reflection. Whatever you put out....you get back. Do you need attention and love? You won’t find it here......at least not the kind of pure love and attention you really need. We really need to seriously (with joy) love each other so deeply that we stop playing these (I know what I am talking about) games. Love heals everything. Sing and dance......Enjoy and love....Being right is so overrated.....you get nothing from it. I should know.....I still do it sometimes and there is NO.....I mean NO payoff.

“baby amp that Viber has”

ricevs comes out firing!

psnyder149,

The absolute difference of 0.1% is much more truthful and relevant than a relative difference of 100%.  That is true regardless of the entity you are evaluating.  Certainly, covid deaths are most serious, and even 0.1% is nothing to ignore.  But the headline 100% difference sounds a lot more serious than it really is.  But the important thing I said is that statistical manipulations distort the truth.  Your analogy of the 2 self taught delusional pilots deliberately distorts what I was trying to say.  The point is that if you have 2 competent pilots, they are in the minority, but they better serve the passengers than the 100 incompetent passengers in the majority.  

For audio assessment at the highest level, I look to speak to people knowledgeable about music and technical audio, and who have the necessary live unamplified music experience to support that.  My knowledge and experience is certainly not complete, so I want to hear from other competent people who play other instruments, go to concerts in halls I've never been in, etc.  If I can find 5 such people, that gives more reliable objective assessment of components than 500 people who only listen to processed rock/pop and are not interested in high fidelity.  If one is not interested in high fidelity, but rather what sounds good, try to gain useful information from such listeners about why they like something.  All you'll get is some vague assertion that he likes it but doesn't know why, or what the natural real sound of the instrument is.  He has much less real knowledge than a few people who really have expertise.  I am delighted to read the impressions of a new poster, mikem, who knows what he is talking about.  No, I don't like him merely because he has my tastes, but because of the way he describes natural music and his experiences with components of different sonic qualities.

Jay is an excellent, perceptive listener, so even though he is not one of the top musical experts I would like to meet, he has lots of experience with many levels of components, and I agree with his observations if not always with his preferences.  Now he is realizing the supreme importance of neutrality, perhaps partially due to my prodding, but more important his own careful listening which has confirmed my position on this matter.  His experience and judgment which I have verified means that I have come to trust his objective findings.  He is much more informative to me than 500 readers of this thread who don't have the experience to reliably judge sound.  

So much for the flawed harping on statistics.  More generally, do you value a few trusted friends, or do you crave 1000's of acquaintances as a politician would?  Always go for quality rather than quantity in everything you do in life.

There is no such thing as a perfect or neutral amp.  All amps change the sound from straight wire.  Have you ever done a straight wire bypass test of an amp?  It is possible to do.  You add an amp in between a preamp and amp and see what how it compares to nothing.  My friend was doing this back in the 70s.  Never heard of anyone doing it since.  So, none of you know what neutral "truly is".  Every thing in the chain has a sound.....including the original recording chain.  You put together a system that makes the sound the way you want or "think" it should be.  High end audio is totally subjective.....totally

I striaght wire bypass tested a silver WBT rca connector and it sounded more detailed than the straight wire.  Viber would choose this in a listening test as the more (neutral) sound.  But it is actually an exaggeration of the upper midrange and lower treble that brings more detail to the fore so it seems more detailed.  The inner detail (reverb trails, etc.) was actually less with the WBT silver RCA jack.

You will never get great sound out of a stock Pascal or IceEdge module.  They were not designed by people who listen to every little thing.  By the way, the Mytek amp uses modified Pascal modules.  The stock IceEdge module (like in Viber's amp) was not worth listening to for very long.  Only after I had spent months tweaking it and the chassis, wire, jacks and footers was I satisfied with the sound.  And yet, a stock or modified LSA amp was greatly preferred to my modded IceEdge. The AGD amps are designed by someone who listens.....this is why they sound so good.  Other relatively inexpensive class D amps that are better than stock IceEdge or Pascal are: modded Purifi, Orchard amps and Cherry amps (also improvable with mods).  Purifi has new higher powered modules coming out in Jan and combined with tweaking and a great discrete input stage will be hard to beat at under $2500 for a stereo tweaked out amp.  Mytek will be releasing a $6K stereo amp using GaNs soon that will be much better than their baby amp that Viber has.....Mytek is also going to release $20K 500 watt a channel mono blocks that should be even better.  This game never ends......just keeps getting better and better and great sound can be attained for modest sums of cash.

Listening tests done through Youtube and listened individually by people at home are not a good way to discern sound quality.  What I value is Jay's opinion....since he is right in the room with the sound.  What we "think about the sound" of his videos is just entertainment.  What I would like is for Jay to get in a new component and then burn it in and do listening tests.....and then make a video review of what he thinks about this new amp or whatever including rating scale.....and then show a few sound clips that demonstrate what he just said in the review.  I don't need no stinkin A/B listening tests.  I trust Jay.  I don't trust Youtube videos and listening to my speakers here and thinking I "know something".

You can have a dozen amps that all seem "neutral".  But still, they all sound different and some of these neutral amps will not have great depth, decay, sustain, inner detail, goose bump factor, air around instruments, natural body of the instrument, etc.  Tonality is just one factor.  The stock IceEdge module does not do very well in the things I just mentioned.  Yet, some like Viber thinks its neutral.  This game every man for himself.   Too bad.....we need to do more sharing.

i wish you all a blessed season of Love.  May you always remember what a blessing life is.  You are worthy, you are always loved.  Joy to the world!

Butt kicking is a subjective term. Expectations and context play a role in that term. 60/40 are just numbers. Micheal Jordan and me, one on one. We stop at 100 shots made. Jordan 60. Me 40. Guess who has the bigger smile and has bragging rights?

Viber6,

I don’t know if statistical analysis was part of your medical training or not.  It was part of my Economics training and you are incorrect in your conclusion about how I evaluated the statistics.  Absolute difference is meaningless, only relative difference matters.  A difference of 10 out of 20 is huge.  A difference of 10 out of 1M is not statistically relevant, unless with repeated trials the difference was always between 9 and 11.  Vegas thrives on 5-15% because there are billions of samples and the variance is exceptionally small.  So my analysis being based on relative analysis is spot on.

As it relates to your Rouge, even though the trials numbered only 3 and sample size was probably small, the results were relatively stable so it was not inappropriate to focusing on 50% more preferred the Mystery amp…. 

Highlighting your lack of understanding of statistics, using your numbers…Assuming the rare disease toxin was deadly and the rate increased from .1 to .2% equates to a change from 335,000-770,000 deaths in a year in the USA which would equate to an increase in total deaths of 12% and an overall cause of death of 24% (2.85M died in prepandemic 2019 USA).  This would rank above cancer and cardiac arrest, so yes, that would be a big deal…  It would be an even bigger deal if it was centered on Brooklyn… where 20% in a year would be dead… Pretty bad for your long term business!  Interesting note… Covid-19 deaths were around 385,000 last year and this year will be over 425,000.  0-.1% matters.

Although I do agree that most people do not understand statistics, especially as it relates to risk analysis and decision making.  I will also agree that media plays on (or equally suffers from) this lack of understanding resulting in sensationalism.  If you want to further debate statistical analysis, off line please…. 

And finally for your pilot analogy.  Let’s add some additional details:  The 2 pilots are self taught, hijacked the plane and really don’t have any idea what they are talking about but are absolutely convinced they know what they are talking about… there names are psnyder149 and Viber6.  Yes, we are taking this airship down faster than the Hindenburg…

And to everyone’s gratefulness, I am done posting on what I thought would give readers a good chuckle…

Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays and to an even better 2022 everyone!

thanks for the review Jay, i am on the beginning of my journey and have modest mc 252 and bookshelf Vienna Haydn.i had ML Scenarios that went dull. any recommendations for speakers?

mrdecibel,

Right, but Jay does critical listening at 82 dB, so the lower powered AHB2 will still compete on that level for discernment of the overall character of the amps.  My Rouge has much more balls than my Mytek, but I am back to the Mytek for its greater clarity.  The Mytek is Pascal based; the Rouge is IceEdge.  I am awaiting the Rouge Alauda S2 which uses the most accurate Pascal module and input stage, but pandemic supply chain problems for the parts are holding things up.

psnyder149,

You posed an amusing challenge. But statistics and voting are meaningless on several levels. Take presentation 1, 45% vs 55%. The absolute difference is 10%, but the relative difference is 10/45 = 22%. Take presentation 3, 37% vs 63%, absolute difference of 26%, relative difference of 26/37 = 70%. In the real world of rare diseases with an incidence of 0.1%, suppose a toxin increases the incidence to 0.2%. The media loves to make sensationalist headlines by saying the toxin doubles the incidence, but the actual increase is only 0.1%.

But my nitpicking about proper statistical interpretation is less important than the experience and qualifications of the individual listeners, voters, etc. We’ll never know this crucial information. There were a few YT listeners who actually posted in-depth analyses of what they heard with the Rouge vs mystery amp. The general tone of the in-depth comments was that the Rouge was more detailed, but the mystery amp was more musical. This all came down to preferences only. Butt-kicking is a foolish characterization.. I SLIGHTLY preferred the Rouge, but would not say it butt-kicked the mystery amp. Before the A/B, I believed that Jay’s amp was a euphonic marshmallow by comparison, but after careful listening and being honest, I admitted that they were close, and so did lots of people. I came away liking Jay’s choices, delighting that he also values clarity, with a little warmth added.

Dangerous assessment tools are polls and surveys. They don’t tell much of value. On a plane with 100 passengers, and 2 pilots, who do you trust for your safety? If there are no trained pilots among the passengers, do you let the ignorant 100 passengers outvote the pilots on the proper way to land the plane, or do you trust the minority 2 pilots who know what they are doing?

P.S. I just read Jay’s description of his new king of neutrality amp. I am intrigued. Suppose he did a shootout with this King Neutral amp with the Mystery amp. I bet the people who thought the Mystery amp butt-kicked the Rouge would also find that it would butt-kick the King Neutral amp for the same reason--they just prefer euphonics. That’s still OK, just their preference. My message is that they should not say that A butt-kicks B but just say, "I like A much more than B." That’s honest. Then explain why, which is informative to listeners of all preferences.

But the Mystery amp is gone, so that shootout won’t happen. However, Jay, just please get the Benchmark AHB2, do a shootout between Prince Neutral (AHB2) and King Neutral. Since you now value neutral amps, that would be most meaningful and helpful to all. If you don’t put up the money (although you get it back in a trial for a month), perhaps you can convince jimmy2615 (see the top of this page) who bought the AHB2 and found it delightfully neutral, to send it to you for a listen and then shootout.  Jimmy, you will be appreciated, thanks.