Well…. No one notice ? It’s been 5 years, happy anniversary Jay. I think you should give michaela some kind of award or something, without him/her this would have never got started!
My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
20,890 responses
+2 on ricevs comments, Footers of various types are isolation tools just like the Artesania amp stands you seem to like and find very effective. "I've been saying it for some time now that i don't feel footers add music to the music. They inject this extra information that makes the presentation almost synthetic." Saying that sounds like some of the posters on this thread talking about products they have never heard in person are inferior to other products they haven't heard either. I don't think a blanket statement like that is fair after only trying a couple different isolation products. |
You cannot expect to know anything about a subject by trying one product or whatever. Because you do not like the ones you tried does not mean they all sound the same. If you only try one thing.....you are ignorant of the possibilities.....he just said that the Sortkones were way better than the ones you tried. You need to try at least a dozen different ones......just like cables....just like preamps.....they all sound different. Did you try one amp and think you know what all amps sound like? If you really had a goal of the best sound then you would experiment with whatever things can give it to you. Better feet = better sound. If you do not want the best sound possible then you will just skip this process. No problem.....we all do what we want......but again, if you want the best sound possible, then you need the best footers for each component. This is not being some kind of tweaker (you have said again and again that you are not a tweaker). This is being a music lover who knows that everything makes a difference. You can afford to do these kind of experiments......with footers, with various line conditioning, fuses, etc. This is why some cheaper systems can sound way better than more expensive systems....because someone took the time to fine tune his rig. Do you want the best sound possible or do you just want to swap gear? You are beautiful no matter what you do. Have fun. |
Hey Paul I've been saying it for some time now that i don't feel footers add music to the music. They inject this extra information that makes the presentation almost synthetic. People are finally starting to see and hear for themselves. This is great because it solidifies what i have already stated in the past. I ordered the Qkore 6. I was told by nordost that you must ground components by utilizing an input on the component and to not use the typical grounding point that some electronics have. This is why they sell you grounding cables terminated in whatever you need (XLR, USB, RCA, etc). Today, i inserted yet another transparent opus powercord but i am using it on the preamp now and once again transparent adds more musicality and far more bass. Damn it, i wish I would have used transparent cables with the mágico M6 now. I think i might be done with silver cables of any brand |
Also, participated in a really interesting test last evening: A server was placed on a Critical Mass Base with their Center stage footers. System was sounding very good and detailed but all sound was emanating from between speakers. Soundstage was deep and sounded detailed. Removed all Critical Mass and replaced with just SortKones (TC). Mind you this was only under the server…. The speakers just disappeared, the sound became both warmer, more lifelike and detailed. After 30 minutes of listening we both determined that the Critical Mass has somehow sucking some of the life out of the sound. I have been a fan of critical mass though I don’t personally own it. I know you have written of similar experiences with it in “The Lab”. But it was just stunning to hear the difference. Clearly, it has capability of doing some good things, but equally clearly… it is important to be really careful with it. |
IME, you have to be very careful with power conditioners and power strips. Power conditioners in particular. If you have a decent dedicated 20 or 30 amp line, many times ( most) a strip or conditioner is going to limit the ability of the amp. I have tried numerous power conditioners, many with supposedly the ability to support large amps...well IME that just is not so! My amp manufacturer ( Jeff Rowland) says no power conditioners, and with his amps, he is spot on. IMO, dedicated lines are the way to go, BUT you need to not only upgrade the line, but also the panel and the wiring to the street transformer, along with getting the transformer checked for connections. This is what i did and the results were pretty startling. The cost is going to be higher than any power conditioner, but I think the results speak for themselves. |
If you try Moneoone (M101) Supernova you will find clarity and detail while the bass is also tighter and more detailed but in no way lean. You get it all, and there is no "takes time to get used to" since it sounds quite good right out of the box, although it does of course improve a lot over the first hundred hours or so. Then you have forever to get used to how good it sounds. |
The Nordost system brings clarity to the entire freq range. As with more accurate electronics, increased clarity is associated with leaner bass, but the bass is tighter with greater clarity. More musical details are revealed without distortion because Nordost is carefully designed. It takes some time to get used to, and ultimately when more of the music is understood, you realize this is most natural and lifelike. I like the simplicity of the Nordost qb8, but can we get the benefits without having the entire system (power cords, interconnects) of Nordost? Since Jay is using other brands with the qb8, maybe the answer is yes. Perhaps a Nordost power cord is top priority with the qb8 and the most important add-on. |
Very interesting WC. I switched from a 20amp O1 to a 20amp O2 pc between the wall and qbase and have not looked back on bass - articulation, layering, punch, pace. But maybe I am still missing some musicality and engagement in the mids and highs? not sure. Maybe related, an area where I do not question are vocals, wonderful to my ears in my system w current system/power cord arrangement. Did your test recommended from your recent live chat re: memories. worked. so that’s good |
Nordost has great detail but if you use a nordost odin 1 PC to power the power strip then you’ll get tons of detail and the bass leans out. I just detected this today. You gain massive detail but the bass leans out. The Denali gives you great bass but the resolution doesn’t quite catch the nordost qb8 with Odin powercord. It’s all about trade offs. The Everest has tremendous bass. This undisclosed preamp and amp tell the whole truth quite EASILY. I keep going back to no power conditioner. I'm literally using an Amazon 40 dollar power strip and connecting the preamp in there, the DAC into the wall with shunyata omega QR-s powercords and the amps into the wall with transparent Opus powercords. I will say i lose some of the extra resolution by doing this but my midrange and bass get FAR better. The musicality returns too. CRAZY HOBBY! |
Well since this thread has now gone into power source. The inverter and the ac receptacle on power supply both effect sound quality, suspect some variability here. I prefer sound quality of my modded BPT Signature 3.5 to lithium ion power pack. With last dac I owned, sound with power pack took on darkish tinge, back to 3.5, more excitement, involvement. I've opened up my power pack in order to determine how things could be improved, really cheap, cheap, cheap parts and metallurgy. I may try diy mods some day. And I can't imagine using any PP with my amps, no way they going to deliver current I need, my amps go straight into wall, dedicated 10awg for amps only. |
Do a search. I just now searched and found the following....lots of other possibilities, too. Here is a possible inverter: https://www.amazon.com/Renogy-Inverter-Battery-Converter-Saving/dp/B096MKPQ1M/ref=pd_lpo_1?pd_rd_i=B... Here is a 200A battery.....really heavy.....two 100 ampers are easier to manage: https://www.renogy.com/deep-cycle-agm-battery-12-volt-200ah/?gclid=CjwKCAjwh5qLBhALEiwAioods9BZUDm2u... Here is a 430 watt charger: https://www.etrailer.com/RV-Converters/Go-Power/34266167.html?feed=npn&utm_source=google&utm... The Yeti’s will run the fan at even low power as they are all in one’s.....cramming the battery and the inverter with handles, etc. into a plastic case. The separate metal heatsinked inverters usually won’t start their fan till they get to half power continuously (check with manufacturer for specific specs)......who uses 1500 watts continuous? Like I said....use a separate ground system. Inverters do not deal with ground. You can just run a ground wire from true ground to your components....or run a ground wire to the Puritan.....and best to use separate grounding rod with the Puritan ground filter. You want your system grounded for lowest noise. |
ricevs, Thanks. Can you link or mention the separates--3000 watt sine wave inverter, the batteries and charger? I would think the larger Yeti can handle low power which is the case in classical music most of the time without having the fan come on. For loud transients, of course the fan would come on and then shut off quickly. In loud sustained musical passages, if the fan is on, you don’t hear it. But for soft passages, the fan obliterates low level detail, of course. A more important factor is that when I talked to Goal Zero, they weren’t familiar with audio uses, since they market these products to campers and kitchen appliance users. They claimed that for audio uses, problems with grounding occur. They didn’t know how this could be prevented. Have your friends had problems with hum? |
Hi WC, Almost caught up on the videos. Your commentary is most informative and what I look fwd to. Quick aside, one of my test tracks for resolution is below. Curious if you are interested, how many times can you hear the guitarists fingers glide back to the next chord between seconds 12 and 33 on your exceptional system? Ideally stream through qobuz or tidal at 24/96. I find this track so revealing as I listen to new components or swap cables etc. I think it speaks to one’s system and also perhaps one’s hearing as the details are really subtle. song: Honey Sun artist: Elbow album: The Take Off and Landing of Everything |
All in one units have fans inside that come on most of the time......you do not want a noisy fan in your room. I modded my Yeti 400 so the fan does not come on. The guy that reviewed the Yeti 400 now has a second Yeti 1200 for his Pass 250.8 amp.....however, he put it in the closet so he does not have to hear the fan. My friend with the modded Apogee speakers uses the Yeti 3000 watter.....but in another room and runs a cable through the wall to his Puritan Audio filter. The only reason he bought the Yeti is that he wants to use it as back up power for the house when the power company shuts off the power when the winds get high. All inverters will sound slightly different. I have not sonically compared inverters.....but everyone I know who uses one (whether an all in one or separates) is thrilled with the sonic and visual (video) improvements. Separates are also more flexible (you can keep adding batteries) and way, way cheaper than all in ones. A good 3000 watt low distortion sine wave inverter is not more than $500.....add two 100 amp batteries for $300 and another hundred or so for a big charger and you have less than $1K and you have 2000 watts of storage. You can listen with the charger connected so you can leave your system all the time.....however, it sounds slightly better to disconnect the charger when listening......a simple switch is all you need......but if you forget to turn the charger back on then your batteries will drain to zero.....you don't want that......if you were a tweaker you could make or buy a voltage sensing switch so when the voltage dropped below say 11 volts the charger would automatically reconnect. You are completely off the grid with an inverter.....same great sound day and night. All inverters put out some noise. This is why a great filter like the Puritan helps more.....and then the grounding filter and grounding rod take it over the top. The Puritan will isolate each component from each other so any noise in one component won't affect the other. |
ricevs, What is the problem with an all-in-one unit like the Goal Zero Yeti? The current Yeti 1500X has plenty of power and is reasonably priced still. Why would a separate 3000 watt inverter and battery be better? Sorry, I remember you posted links to such products many months ago, but maybe you can mention some again. Most important, have you personally tried them vs Yeti at home? Jay's negative experience with the PSA P20 shows that you must listen rather than fall in love with promises based solely on theory. |
Great video again Jay. It's a shame that companies like Levinson and Mcintosh don't invest in true hifi anymore. It is better for their business and keep them alive though. I feel that the trend of ultra hifi is to bring out tremendous resolution, but at the same time, preventing from sounding bright. Most of them would sound a little bit sweet but you don't feel any coloration. I haven't heard swiss brands like CH Precision, Soulution and Dartzeel. But from what I heard Dan Dagostino, Gryphon and Boulder can do this. |
PS Audio Power Regenerator works if you have a bad powerline like I do. I live in a condo in downtown Boston. If I don't use a power regenerator the amplifier doesn't even turned on due to unstable voltage and current. Infrastructure was like almost 200 years old here... The power regenerator, at least, generates a perfect sine wave and output stable voltage so I can enjoy music. However, if I have a dedicated powerline, I will never plug my amp to any power regenerator/conditioner, only straight to the wall. I don't hear any big difference plugging in my dCS/turntable/phonostage/CD player to either the wall or power conditioner though. Prob they don't consume that much power an amp would need. |
You can read how a $350 inverter blew away the $10,000 PS Audio P20 and equaled the $20,000 Stromtank inverter. http://enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0119/Goal_Zero_Yeti_400_Lithium_Portable_Power_Station_R... Add the Puritan line filter and grounding system and you are in Nirvana. You do not want an all in one like the Yeti....you want a separate 3000 watt low distortion sine wave inverter and bank of batteries (if you are running class A.....if class D then one battery)....and a separate charger. |
In case some of you haven't noticed, Nordost hasn't come out with a power conditioner for a reason. They have identified changes to the sonic qualities of their cables when using these devices. What did the p20 do to my system?. It killed the wow effect and murdered the excitement. It homogenized things and if j recall correctly, it killed the bass too. I thought the Shunyata Denali V2 was superior. |
People have personal and subjective opinions about the sonic effects of different kinds of AC power products on their audio systems. I think the only intellectually honest thing that can be said is that there is no way to tell in advance what will be the sonic effects of power regeneration versus isolation transformer versus balanced power versus passive noise suppression versus battery power on a particular audio system as perceived by a particular audiophile's ears. No rule of general applicability can be formulated. Which power device, if any, is "best" will be very idiosyncratic and will depend on each audiophile's particular mains power voltage stability and variance situation, ambient EMI environment, audio system components and personal sonic preferences. In setting up a new audio system I assumed that I wanted either a PS Audio regenerator or an isolation transformer/balanced power device for my turntable power supply, phono stage and line stage preamplifier. I compared a PS Audio regenerator to an Equi-Tech device on a friend's familiar system. See https://whatsbestforum.com/threads/equi-tech-2rq-versus-ps-audio-p10.30215/ The sonic effects of each of these devices on my friend's system were very audibly different. Which sonic effects were "correct"? That comparison experience left me so perplexed that I have decided to put together my new system, at least initially, with no AC power devices at all. |
Psnyder149 said PS Audio (power regenerator) versus everything plugged straight into wall yielded some improvements in clarity but lost dynamics so it was a trade off with overall small improvement. Jay, what exactly did you find? It is worthwhile to improve outlets, wiring, and power cords, but RF noise must be dealt with, especially in urban places. In my NYC apartment, the RF is so bad that variations in sound at times are much greater than variations in amps. The Shunyata Denali 6000 greatly reduces these variations, but the idea of a pure sine wave is appealing. I am disappointed to hear about these drawbacks from the PS Audio--maybe it is due to their regenerators' own electronic distortions. Ricevs has reported big improvements without drawbacks from the Goal Zero battery/invertors. |
WC, I think you're saying that some power cords can clean up the power enough that you can opt to do without a power conditioner. The other thing that many power conditioners provide is surge protection. Of course, many of us have power amps directly to the wall anyway :-) I have somewhat of a whole-house surge protector at the panel - I'm sure others do as well. Dave |
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At this time I have 2 dedicated 20 amp circuits wired with larger than required (10) gauge wire each with an isolated ground that goes to a separate grounding stake independent from the rest of my house. The wire is standard grade (Home Depot) as I didn’t have the funds to try some of the audiophile in wall wiring brands. The outlets are Audience Hidden Treasure with Furutech GT’s wall plates and carbon fiber outlet covers. Nordost Valhalla pc s connect Nordost QBase 8 (original) with 2 QV2 and 1 QK1 ac enhancers. Pre/pro and amp are each powered with Valhalla and my external Keces power supply for the Innuos server is Frey2. To date, I have not been able to acquire a QKore ground unit but that will be a future purchase. All components are on various sort kones. I recently moved and did all of the inwall changes at one time so I can’t vouch for independent incremental differences, however a few weeks ago I replaced a Nordost Brama for the third Valhalla and the result was just stunning. At my prior home I had dual 20 amp lines with isolated grounds but sharing the same central grounding rod and hospital grade outlets. The PS Audio, definitely was not up to powering the system with the amp but even just conditioning the low power devices left the sound constrained compared to the QBase w ac enhancers and lower end Nordost pc’s. With system currently, the images are more defined. Bass is significantly extended but yet better controlled. Noise floor is noticeably lowered and instruments have a more natural, harmonically complex tonal quality. Unfortunately, during the move I was without my full system for 6 months and my new room setup is inferior to before. But with substituting only a Nucleus + for the Innuos Zen mini and the in wall improvements the sound was vastly improved. The substitution of the final Valhalla is what took everything over the edge. It was as if I doubled the cost of all of the components in my system. Before it was very good, now it is significantly better. I kept the power plant for nearly a year before selling it. About 9 months in, I put it back in the wall and incorporated a variety of the Nordost products as well. In all cases the sound was comparatively constrained. Everything a bit flaccid and far less exciting. Once I removed it, the impact was immediate and obvious. Note that PS Audio versus everything plugged straight into wall yielded some improvements in clarity but lost dynamics so the it was a trade off with overall small improvement. The current setup is significantly better and I do not hear any downsides. This journey has spanned around 3-4 years minus the 6 months. |
Everything makes a difference... Line sources have advantages.....so do point sources. What is really crucial is how something is done. Wilson has 4 veiled binding posts and one veiled spade in series with the mids and highs. You will never get all the information possible doing this. No matter how good your tweeter is you cannot get back natural information that is lost with binding posts, etc. I had a neat experience Friday when I went to my friends house to redo a crossover for his completely custom made Apogee Duetta speakers. After the fix we listened to about 5 different songs through the original fully custom and tweaked crossover. Then we put in the new crossover that I built for him.....OMG....what a difference.....like it was a new speaker. Less bright, less glare, way warmer and yet way, way more information. He played a jazz piece with the old crossover and when it started I said to him.....Is this a mono recording?....then information came in from each side showing me that it was indeed a stereo recording......but the original three instruments that started the cut were so close together I thought it was mono. With the new crossover the size of all three instruments was larger and they were now separate with air around each one.....incredible difference this new crossover made. His custom Apogee speakers gave me the best sound I have ever heard using a streaming source (no master tapes). Would not take any Wilson under $200K for what i heard then.....and he has tweaks yet to make to the network in the speaker and to the footers underneath the xovers. He is going to France tomorrow for 5 weeks and he will be running the speakers continuously while he is gone. I have a couple of pics of his new xover on my site. I will add some more pics, info and pics of his entire system down the road. The input connectors are plastic bolts, washers and wing nuts....the worlds best connecting system....cheap too. http://tweakaudio.com/EVS-2/Speaker_ideas.html Crossover pics at bottom of page. One of the reasons his system is so incredible is his AC system. He is using a 3000 watt inverter.....so completely off the grid and then followed by the incredible Puritan Audio line filter and the Puritan Audio grounding system including a separate grounding rod that he had installed outside his room. Talking about low noise!!!!! No loss of dynamics or anything using this system.....just fantastic. |
yea but powercell comes with a nice PC anyways... especially with upgrade I like the new powercell very much, but i guess too much reduction could be detrimental. Like, in a high end chain there are so many tweaks as well as expensive cords and fancy electronics all trying to eliminate noise, distortion, ext. that you eventually get to a level where you wont want more Kinda like over-dampening a room. We actually like some of the reflections. If you had a 100% dampened room you wouldn’t like it as much as a room with strategically placed and not overdone acoustic treatments I think thats what hes getting at when he says he wants to eliminate conditioning? |
