Im building a home theater system and value music quality as much or more than theater quality. I currently have a marantz cinema 60, anthem mca325 gen2 amp, paradigm founder 120f r&l, rel ht1205 mkii, and b&w center and surrounds. Will be getting a founder 90c in near future to replce my b&w center. Im looking into dacs and media players as i would like to compile a library of quality music. Not sure if i need a dac as the marantz allegedly has a good one built in. As far as media players, can they really improve quality? Wheres a good place to start? Info out there is a bit confusing
Im building a home theater system and value music quality as much or more than theater quality.
One of the first things you need to do to improve 2-channel performance is to get that AVR outta the stereo signal path altogether. Get a good stereo preamp with a HT bypass and connect the front L/R preouts from the AVR into the HT bypass input on the stereo pre. This way when you play 2-channel music the AVR is completely out of the signal path, which is definitely what you want because a preamp is critical and the pre in your AVR sucks. Trust me here, it just does.
Not sure if i need a dac as the marantz allegedly has a good one built in.
No, it doesn’t. A good separate DAC will give you much more and very good ones can be had for only around $800.
As far as media players, can they really improve quality? Wheres a good place to start?
Not sure exactly what you mean by a “media player,” but I’d highly suggest you get a good streamer and subscribe to a good online music source like Qobuz, and rather than having to “compile” a library of music you’ll have worlds of music at CD and hi-res quality at your fingertips. Decent streamers can be had for around as little as $200 - $400 or so.
If you get a stereo preamp along with a good streamer and DAC your 2-channel performance will be at a higher level entirely. I know this is a little daunting at first, especially the streaming part, but it’s SO worth doing — just keep asking whatever questions you have here and you’ll get there. The good thing is you don’t have to do it all at once and can just do it in individual pieces over time, and each piece you add will give you a meaningful performance bump. Hope this helps at least somewhat.
Keep your HT and your 2 channel rig separate except where you can employ HT bypass. Buy a dedicated streamer and a good DAC for music. The better they are the happier you’ll be.
- Receivers combine the multiple power amp sections in the same chassis as the dac/preamp sections, etc (terrible idea).
The path to high fidelity in multichannel music is going with a no compromise separate preamp processor such as the Marantz AV10 (lot more expensive than your receiver) and separate power amps (Marantz amp 10). The poweramp should be separate. Ever wonder why this preamp processor+ power amp combo retails for 14k and the receiver is less than 2k? The above mentioned should give you a hint. HT is no big deal since the ear is not scrutinizing as it is with movies like it is for music. A receiver should be fine for movies.
You shouldn’t worry yourself with 2 channel DACs or streamers. If you use any of the Marantz’s features such as bass management, peq, etc, a purist DAC’s analog output will go through a ADC conversion inside your Marantz unit. Besides, your unit with all its features can beat the crap out of most of them in execution, if you can set it up right.
For now, you could use your receiver’s pre-outs to separate power amps and not use the receivers internal amps. You may be able to turn it into just a preamp processor by turning on a "preamp mode". Newer Denon models permit this...think your Marantz may as well since all these brands are "Sound United" these days. This would be the intermediary step to higher fidelity before you can get to true separates.
If at all possible do not combine a home theater and 2 channel system. It may seem cheaper, but it comprises so much. I would rather have a 2 channel system in a walk in closet, separate from a home theater. You can craft the sound… carefully place the equipment and generally do what you want.
There are very different sonic objectives between a home theatre and 2 channel system.
Fortunately over the last thirty years I have developed a home theater with my partner separate from my 2 channel. Now, they are both at exceptional levels of performance. We are old now, and if I had not done this separation, I would not be able listen to my 2 channel system for three hours a day at any volume I wish. So many advantages.
You shouldn’t worry yourself with 2 channel DACs or streamers. If you use any of the Marantz’s features such as bass management, peq, etc, a purist DAC’s analog output will go through a ADC conversion inside your Marantz unit. Besides, your unit with all its features can beat the crap out of most of them in execution, if you can set it up right.
@deep_333Horse hockey! And +1 @ghdprenticeThis is a statement from someone who has no concept of a high-performance, 2-channel audio system and even less of a concept of the importance of a preamp in that chain. Nor does he have any idea of the importance of a good DAC and that it should NEVER be processed through an AVR or even an AVP. As evidence, I’ve never seen one high-end manufacturer use an audio/video processor or AVR in any audio showroom exhibit at any audio show EVER. Why do you think that is???
Thanks peeps. What pre amp would pair well with my paradigm founder 100f's and my anthem mca325 without breaking the bank. 2-3k range....?
And do i understand it correctly that a stereo preamp can have a bypass to isolate from my speakers from the avr, but when im watching movies i can switch my L/R channels back to my avr?
First, concentrate on getting your HT properly set up, including acoustical treatments for your room. The LCR speakers should all be matched, and setup using the onboard PEQ. The top (Atmos) and surround speakers should also be voiced similarly, although they don't need to be identical in brand to your mains. Once you have that set up and have a reliable reference, the go ahead with building on the dedicated 2-Ch system, with its own source and amplification.
Remember this: in statistics there is the concept of 'measurable, not meaningful'. Doubling your power gives you 3dB more peak level. Unless you play at peak levels, 3dB is exactly that, a measurable improvement but not very meaningful. Like wearing insulated shoes that reduce chances of lightning strike by 50%. Measurable, but not terribly meaningful.
What pre amp would pair well with my paradigm founder 100f’s and my anthem mca325 without breaking the bank. 2-3k range....?
Really depends on what improvements and sound characteristics you’re looking for. Also, what’s your budget and are you looking for new or used?
And do i understand it correctly that a stereo preamp can have a bypass to isolate from my speakers from the avr, but when im watching movies i can switch my L/R channels back to my avr?
Yes. You can toggle between stereo and HT by just pressing one button, and it’s really a best of both worlds thing because it’s like having two separate systems in one. It’s a beautiful thing. I did it this way for a couple years before we moved and got a dedicated listening room in the basement for 2-channel and it was great.
Not all AVR's are created equal. Anthems, for instance, are quite good musically. Their amps are very good as you know. ARC seems to work better than the other auto-eq systems. Speakers and room are way more important than the electronics.
Differences in DACs and streamers? Yes, but compared to speakers, rooms and even amps, the differences are very small. Larger than cables probably, but small. I am not sure how far up the line one has to go before the differences are audible without direct A/B listening. I have not gotten there yet. Probably above all the commodity CHI-Fi chip products. Chord? HOLO?
Personally, something to tame down the top end of those Paradigms and B&W would be first on my list. It is a matter of taste, but I am way over to the Sonas Faber, Revel balanced response speakers.
If you are more into music than movie special effects, you might consider looking at the Schiit SYN idea. Gets away from all the DSP If I did not already have the rear speakers in my guest/HT room, I would run 3.1.
@sandrodg73, For upmixing music from stereo to multichannel (surround music) and involving a Hifi streamer/DAC in the chain, you should perhaps look into an all-analog 'simpler' surround processor like the SYN (400 USD). It has analog inputs, i.e. your can connect a 2 channel HIFI Streamer/DAC analog out --> SYN surround processor/preamp --> upto 5 channels of amplification ---> front/center/surround speakers
I have never bought a sub. I do have some observations over the years having built quite a few on what to pick:
I find low Q sealed subs to blend with the room gain better than ported. Less group delay, no port noise. To me, they sound more precise and better controlled for music. If a HT or with DSP, the response can be mitigated somewhat and for a HT and si-fi special effects, maybe better to go ported to get below 25 or so. If you don't already have some DSP for the sub, I recommend looking at the DSPeaker Antimode products. I don't want DSP in my mains, but for the sub it is invaluable. I find smaller subs 10's or 12's blend with mains better. The more the easier to tune the room.
SVS and Rel seem to own the market right now. Rhythmic I think maybe should get more attention. Subs are actually not very difficult so I wonder how much better the above are over maybe a Monoprice? ( or Rel S over T) Several cheaper ones so each does less excursion may have lower distortion that one otherwise better one. Just a thought.
Get yourself an Audible Illusions, Modulus 3a. There's a couple for sale on US_M. Tuber too that will take the edge off the B&Ws for sure. Wonderful preamp well within your budget.
Does the modulus haveva ht bypass? I dont have the room or $$to do a separate 2 ch set up. My L&R are paradigm 100fs. Which are pretty neutral to me. My B&Ws were too bright for music. Thats why i went away from them. I will be upgrading my center to paradigm also. Ultimately the only B&W speakers left will be my ceiling rear surrounds. I really like them. So i guess my preamp needs to pair well with paradigm. Maybe anthem is the way to go but pretty pricey from what ive seen.
Another stupid questio...I have a "good" amp ( anthem mca 325 gen 2) and "good" paradigm speakers. My marantz cinema 60 has pure and pure direct modes which should bypass all of the electronic stuff the avr does. Couldnt i put a good dac in line with my anthem and get the same effect as a preamp?? Excuse my ignorance
Look no further than the Grimm MU1 music player/streamer ($12.5K) running into the amazing Mola Mola Tambaqui DAC ($13.5 K). The best combo out there for the dollar (at any price actually). If that puts you a bit over budget, then substitute the Grimm for an Auralic Aries streamer (in any of the many generations over the past several years: G1.1 to G2.2).
@ddgttSo lemme get this straight — the OP has about $8k invested in both his stereo amp and speakers total, and you’re recommending spending $26k on a streamer and DAC?
If that puts you a bit over budget, then substitute the Grimm for an Auralic Aries streamer
A bit over budget??? So then keep the $14k DAC and downgrade the streamer and that makes it somehow doable or more reasonable??? Dude, get a clue here cause you’re on another planet entirely and clearly put no thought/effort into this — this helps the OP in no way whatsoever. Jeez.
op the marantz even n a pure mode will not sound as good as a real high end preamp Marantz is re badged denon and these mass market components will not compare to a preamp like a cj or hegel
if you really want to elevate your system get a hegel integrated amp to power your mains with the home theater bypass to connect your marantz
If faced with a choice between an Auralic Aries G2 and Grimm… definitely the Grimm. I have had both in my system. Although for that money I would go for an Aurrender N20. Each more natural in the high end.
Im kinda leaning towards the schiit products. Especially at their price point and US made. The freya + with one of there dacs appears to make sense. Ill get a streamer in the future. The freya has tubes and schiit gives a selection to choose from. Im clueless there too. Probably dont need them at all but maybe they will provide some enhancement. Thoughts??
Schiit??? Yes. I have started to build up a small pile of Schiit in the past year or so, and very happy with their products. I've had only good experience, and the only negative is not for them alone, but every damn maker who puts switches on the back side of the units (so very minor I know). Other than that, I'm impressed with Schiit. WIll definitely buy more of their gear when I have a need. Too bad they are not making any streaming devices (yet).
Schiit is great budget stuff. Very good sounding for the money. But it is not audiophile gear. I have extensive experience with several of their components.
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