I also think that these "better gap" does not justify the price absolutely. Seems to be a simple commercial trick for to raise up the 1200s prices to an "nowadays" price.
I am not sure about that. I lot of engineering went into this table in particular. Much more than the new SP 10 variants. The 1200G Gae is the table 90% the engineering went into according to Technics, especially the new motor design. I think for a smaller "VPI" type shop to make that turntable would have cost much more. |
Hi everyone,
I have listened the 1200gae some months ago, at Germany. I feel that its a good table, without doubts, and better than a classic 1200mk2. Anyway, I also think that these "better gap" does not justify the price absolutely. Seems to be a simple commercial trick for to raise up the 1200s prices to an "nowadays" price.
This, because all these "technical advancemets" in the 1200GAE are the minimum that must be offered by a giant company like that. Even, for those that have a minimum knowledge into industrial series production, will understand that it COULD BE more expensive to remake an original 1200 that to remake all from scratch, and to maintaint only the cheap parts , for to make “scale economy”.
I use many tables at my home, that I change from time on time, for space problems. I can't have all of them installed at the same time, and running. There are about 12 to 15 in my cellar, usually.
At this time, I have installed a Technics SP10mk2 and a Victor QL-A95. (The SP-10mk2 is powered with a super-power-supply, deigned specifically for it). I prefer them than a 1200GAE.
The SP10mk2 is running with a Dynavector DV 505 tonearm and the QL-A95, with its own one.
Turning again on the new Technics, personally, I would prefer to get a SP10R ALONE (instead a 1200GAE), without tonearm nor plinth, and to make a serious unit with a good plinth and a good tonearm. Just for to add to my small collection. Or better yet; an Exclusive P3a. This is that I feel, my opinion. Only that; an opinion.
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I think I am going to pull the trigger on one this week and get a Lyra Delos, Sumiko headshell, and boston acoustics mat. maybe a stillpoints lp1 as well. I listened to the GR version today and was pretty floored by it. The only thing I noticed was the GR was somewhat forward sounding and heavy on the bass but that could have been the sub and the Ortofon Quintet cartridge that was on it at the time. But the little things that table did was pretty amazing for 1695.00 |
cleeds:
Thanks, I'll do that. |
audiofun... in order to be analogous to a tonearm, the participants would have to be directly across from each other walking up the stairs in the same plane. If they were situated the way people actually carry a couch up a stair case (one at the top one at the bottom) I do not see an analogy in the mechanical assembly of a tone-arm ... I’m sorry that I’m not explaining this more clearly. If you look at the profile of a pickup arm designed with more thoughtful geometry than the Technics - such as a Triplanar or an SME V - I think you’ll understand Ralph’s analogy. |
cleeds:
The way I am envisioning this, in order to be analogous to a tonearm, the participants would have to be directly across from each other walking up the stairs in the same plane. If they were situated the way people actually carry a couch up a stair case (one at the top one at the bottom) I do not see an analogy in the mechanical assembly of a tone-arm. The bearings in the tonearm are not located front to back. What am I missing? Oh well, LOL its fine. |
audiofun If they're both facing
each other along the long sides of the sofa in order to imitate the
arm/bearing in the horizontal plane, they would both experience the same
weight. That's true, until the sofa has to be tipped up or down, as a pickup arm would as it traverses a record warp. That's was Ralph's point. |
cleeds:
I think tzh21y was conveying that tone-are wire leads are an area where many people experiment in order to affect better sound. Not that they are continually changing the wires due to some type of problem. It's a less drastic way to experiment in order to possibly taylor the sound to ones liking.
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Ralph:
In your sofa analogy, where are the persons who are supposed to represent the bearings positioned? I am trying to picture this analogy and it is not working in my head LOL (maybe its my head :). If they're both facing each other along the long sides of the sofa in order to imitate the arm/bearing in the horizontal plane, they would both experience the same weight. If they are at the ends of the sofa, I don't see the similarity with a tonearm bearing in the horizontal or vertical plane.
Also, I have played, in direct comparison the Technics with albums that I also happen to have on tape (R2R Safety Master Copy) and I will state that in my system the bass sounds dead on. There are no aberrations which stand out. I have compared Café Blue (15ips and 33.3), Jacintha is Her Name (15ips and 45) and Here's to Ben (15ips and 45). I have also done this with CD. Café Blue is a digital recording, 16bit 48khz if I recall correctly.
Note that I did not state the Lp and the tape sound identical.
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tzh21y02-05-2018 11:56amtonearm wire leads also change the sound. thats why people make changes in these areas on a regular basis If you have a need to change your pickup wire leads regularly, then there's something truly amiss. Wire technology is a pretty mature technology. What you might be noticing is the affect of disconnecting/re-connecting the cables, which can improve connector contact. |
I would like Ralph to comment on why he is so opposed to this arm. I
imagine with a different headshell the stock arm could become
significantly better than with the stock headshell. The video on
youtube from fremer really has me scatching my head to what Ralph is
talking about. The stock arm sounds pretty darn good. I am not saying
it bests a triplanar but I bet its closer than he would lead one to
believe. I'm not particularly opposed to *that* arm, what I am opposed to is engineering bugs. The Technics arm, like many others, has the bearings in the plane of the arm tube rather than the LP surface. This causes the tracking force to vary more with warp and bass notes (think about 2 people carrying a couch over flat ground and then up a stairs- who is carrying the most weight going up the stairs?). As a result they don't play bass right. I have several LPs which I recording and some of them which I also mastered. I know what they are supposed to sound like; I was there when the recording was made. The reason I like the Triplanar is because it plays the bass best of any arm I've heard, while also getting the mids and highs right. It is one of the most adjustable arms made and has some of the best bearings available. Its not that the Technics is a bad arm, its just that the Triplanar is better. |
tzh21y: I have the GAE and my experience is that the arm sounds great. I actually look at it as a freebie considering the low cost of the G/GAE (low compared to the other low-tech MDF TT’s being pushed on the unsuspecting public; many times at much higher prices) tables. The arm sounds fantastic. I have heard the Triplanar on at least two Monaco TT rigs (very expensive systems) and both struggled to achieve great sound. I would say they eventually achieved good sound but certainly nothing to write home about. Granted, those are specific cases and I have NOT heard the G/GAE with a Triplanar. I probably wont as I am not a fan of that arm. I can tell you that headshells make a big difference and one of the first things I would suggest is replacing the stock Technics headshell for a big jump in performance (and the mat has to go). I bought the LP Gear Zupreme and the Audio-Technica AT-LH18/0CC. I use the LP Gear Zupreme with one of my Denon 103R’s. The AT is awaiting the arrival of the ART 1000 Direct Power MC to arrive. |
I know you mention significantly. well sometimes the little things are in fact a lot |
tonearm wire leads also change the sound. thats why people make changes in these areas on a regular basis |
If it changes the effective mass it certainly would. |
tzh21yI imagine with a
different headshell the stock arm could become significantly better than
with the stock headshell. I doubt that a headshell could make that much of a difference. Changing headshells might allow the cartridge/headshell combination to result in a mass more suited to the pickup arm than the original headshell, and of course that could improve performance. But that's a setup issue. All other things being equal, changing a headshell alone is not likely to result in "significantly better"
performance from a pickup arm.
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I am really curious about the problem with the arm. I would like Ralph to comment on why he is so opposed to this arm. I imagine with a different headshell the stock arm could become significantly better than with the stock headshell. The video on youtube from fremer really has me scatching my head to what Ralph is talking about. The stock arm sounds pretty darn good. I am not saying it bests a triplanar but I bet its closer than he would lead one to believe. |
Go to a live venue to hear the real deal. This is even more effective if the real deal you go to gets recorded and you can have the LP of the recording! Even more so if you are the one doing the recording... It would be really nice if Technics sorted out the issue with the plinth! |
Atmasphere,
The video suggested to me that Technics is still considering final design and that they are considering what guys like me are wanting and looking for. So, yes I will wait for the 10R and saving my 'nickles'. No doubt in my mind that it will be Spendy.
I am in the camp of everything makes a difference. Everything has a coloration. After all, we are reproducing sound. Go to a live venue to hear the real deal. We will get to see / hear the 10R when it's put on the market and make our judgements and decisions then.
In the meantime; I am saving my nickels and throwing the odd quarter and dollar into the jar.
Best |
There is a video on Analog Planet with Michael Fremer of the prototype
Technics 10R. Sounds to made to be able to accept an arm of users
choice. I am holding tight and saving my nickels. Until I win the
lottery; the AF3 / Sat arm combo will need to wait. I'm sure Technics will offer a base. The problem is that a base made of different material other than the actual plinth of the turntable will result in a coloration, no matter how well damped the base is. For this reason, I suspect that a new plinth that is large enough to accommodate a tone arm will have to be fabricated. But time will tell. I'm looking forward to see what the SP-10R is all about too. |
atmasphere,
There is a video on Analog Planet with Michael Fremer of the prototype Technics 10R. Sounds to made to be able to accept an arm of users choice. I am holding tight and saving my nickels. Until I win the lottery; the AF3 / Sat arm combo will need to wait. |
chakster:
thanks for for the link. I knew that thing sounded special before I saw what they were working with :) the ART 1000 which I'm supposed to be auditioning and the Phasemation 1000 (which I now want to audition :).
i liked what I heard even over the net on uTube. |
Anybody watched this video
Caliburn vs. SL-1200G ? |
I agree with Atmasphere, I've not found this table to be bright in audiophile parlance. Fact is, the table is not bright. I have used it with multiple phono stages and brightness is not a trait that I perceive. The tilting up of sound I referred to is solely due to the introduction of the SMPS.
Comparing the same records played on this table (for instance, Jacintha "Here's to Ben" or "Jacintha is her Name") to the same music in digital format , R2R (I have of the Jacinthat Groove Note R2R selections) and the 45's played on my SP10 mk3 I feel confident in my statement that if some are experiencing brightness, it MAY warrant a look lsewhere in your chain.
Try plugging the table in further away from your system with a long extension cord to determine if the your system is experiencing a very adverse reaction to the SMPS.
My Sony PS3, plasma tv, router, anything with a SMPS has this exact same effect, some are much worse. The power supply in the Sony PS3 is one of the worse I've encountered. I literally have the aforementioned devices plugged in to a Monster power bar on switched outlets so that with a foot tap I can perform a hard disconnect from the wall during my listening sessions.
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I own the SL-1200G and find it bright. Fremer and others on the net
also find this artifact. Not on every recording but many. I'm
intrigued by the Tri Planar, once owned and loved one. Would the
Tri-Planar sound warmer on the SL-1200G as I would want to tame down the
brightness. Also, if I opt for a Tri-Planar, where can i acquire a
quality armboard for my deck? If you are inclined to respond I will be
very appreciative. We fabricated the armboard needed to mount the Triplanar 12" arm. There are armboards you can buy on ebay, but they didn't suit IMO since the arm board needed to have mass similar to the plinth of the turntable. We found no brightness in the machine at all, although we also replaced the platter pad in addition to the arm. The stock power supply was fine- it did not radiate any noise whatsoever. That was a relief as its built into the unit. Having also heard the Triplanar on the the Sp-10MkIII (stock) I would say the GAE gave the MkIII a run for the money. |
chakster:
your table always appealed to me and I thought about experimenting with it. It looks so cool and like you've stated, has some nice solid engineering behind its design.
I'd love to hear that piece one day. As it stands, I think I'm going to stop at 2 tables and 3 arms. Was thinking of getting the SP10R but honestly I can't make a case for it (yet :).
2 tables and a R2R is realistically enough :) |
lewm:
sorry about incorrectly entering your moniker, my iPad likes to try to think for me :) plus I need my readers LOL!!! |
I wonder how many of you experienced with Luxman PD-444 with its "magnet suspended loadfree spindle & crystal phase locked loop" made by Micro Seiki ? I use two of them and this is the turntable than need no modifications (imo), because the 24kg plinth is simply amazing and ready for two tonearms. |
lesm:
I believe you and I'm glad it was a mod you are pleased with. The greyness that most people speak of is mostly caused by the chassis of the mk2 and mk3. A great deal of this greyness can be removed by seating the motor unit in a plinth such as Albert Porters beautiful plinths.
The best results are achieved by completely removing the motor unit (mk2 & 3) from their aluminum housing and fixing them directly to a plinth a-la Steve Dobbins or Artisan Fidelity.
I can attest that the GAE has no greyness to speak of, at least my ears don't perceive that trait.
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Audiofun, My Mk3 was Krebs modded by Bill Thalmann in Springfield, VA. I think it was a worthwhile upgrade, and I am not sure how the smell of linseed oil, assuming I were to remove my platter and sniff, is necessarily a detriment to the listening experience. I can say I noticed no such odor when re-assembling my Mk3 after Bill worked on it, but I could imagine that such an odor might develop over time and use. But so what? On the same subject, I would think that the Krebs mod for the Mk2 would be even more effective than on the Mk3, since the Mk2, to my ears, has a slight gray-ish coloration (very slight, mind you) that some say may emanate from servo over-correction, which is "treated" by Krebs. Best of all, the Krebs mod to the Mk2 is cheaper.
Also, based on theory and my fairly extensive experience with a variety of DD turntables, my guess would be that the 1200GAE outperforms a stock Mk2. I'm not so sure about Yamaha GT2000 or Victor TT101, but both of the latter probably would need mods to the plinth in order to compete with or out-do the 1200GAE.
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For the record I am not lumping ALL belt drives in my comment about "MDF rubber band driven junk" I am referring to true "MDF rubber band driven junk" :)
Obviously their are some fabulous belt drive systems out there, I personally would like to own and play with some of the big Micro Seikis (SX-8000 II). |
Ok, wait... If I am brutally honest, YES the SP10 MK3 (NG)/AMR system does embarrass the GAE on the Royal Ballet LP :) but I suspect it would do this to a lot of tables in all price categories.
That album sounds great on the GAE, on the NG, it sounds SCARY REAL!!! |
dougolsen:
"Do you recommend running in manual until 700 hours is reached and will this help reduce the brightness I object too?" I do recommend running it in manual mode for the first 700 hours.
"How do you know when you have reduced torque down to 20%?" Count the number of turns lock to lock (be gentle, it is a small pot) and then turn it 1/5 the way up from the lowest setting.
While I definitely know that the unit can sound a bit out of sorts in auto mode until the bearing is run-in I am not so sure if the brightness you are referring to is the same thing I am referring to. I did note a tilting up of the sound of my system but ALL SMPS's have this affect on my system.
Simply put this is one of the best tables I have ever heard bar none, is my SP10 MK3 better, well yes but I have a $9K cart on a $7K arm feeding a $13K phono stage on a $10K rack (in fairness the GAE is on a rack of equal cost), not to mention an Artisan Fidelity Modification to make it a NG (currently undergoing the upgrade to NGS) ~180 pound table. The real question is how does it compare? Very well indeed, in no way is my GAE/103R(or London Ref)/iPhono2 embarrassed by its big brother. My system so far ranks as follows (going in ascending order of goodness), digital (AMR DP-777SE, GAE+iPhono 2 with LPS, SP10 MK3 NG + AMR PH 77, Custome built (by Soren Wittrup) Tascam 42BR R2R).
All of them sound excellent and the GAE is very very good, it simply can be made to sound better. I still say its FAR better than most of the MDF rubber band driven junk out there being marketed for crazy money.
I don't want to start a thing about the Krebs mod which many know I do not believe in or support. I will just say this, if you know of anyone who has had it performed some years ago, try to look at the interior of the unit where the linseed oil was applied and see what it looks and smells like now. All I am saying is look for yourself and if you are fine with this in your TT, then go for it.
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Pani, now much is the Krebs mod of Sp10mk2?
and why not the Victor TT-101 which must be superior to all of them? |
The SMPS has to be thrown out, no doubt about that. A linear power supply mod from http://www.time-step.com/ is the way to go. I am also on the fence to get a direct drive TT. I was considering the SP10 mk2 and Yamaha GT-2000. SP10 was favourable simple because of its availability and serviceability. But then came the 1200G claiming to be equal or better than sp10 mk2. However I do not see any solid claims as yet to suggest that it is indeed better than the sp10. In the absence of such solid A-B testing I am thinking to stick to my original plans of getting the SP10 mk2. I have heard it and like it a lot. It can be upgraded with the krebs modifications which supposedly takes it closer to the sp10 mk3. Why not then ? |
The WT Amadeus is a great table. I have both a standard Amadeus and a GTA. |
Wow, what a bucket of cold water to the face this thread is turning out to be. I was considering selling my Well Tempered Amadeus to "upgrade" to the 1200G, but if it needs all these tweaks and extras to avoid sounding bright, standing pat might be the better move. |
audio fun,
Thanks for your post, the LPS you suggest intrigues me. Honestly, I'm disappointed that any kind of modification is needed to overcome what i believe shouldn't be there ... brightness.
Do you recommend running in manual until 700 hours is reached and will this help reduce the brightness I object too? How do you know when you have reduced torque down to 20%? I have no device or skill to measure this electronically so can it be done visually ie by the number of counterclockwise turns of the little torque adjustment pot (or whatever it's called :-)?
I would need someone to swap the SMPS with an LPS since I am technically challenged. And finding an LPS is another challenge. This change could be expensive.
Meanwhile I will try the manual, lower torque idea and see if it helps. Thanks again for your comments, I appreciate it.
Doug |
I am the OP. Still interested in all thoughts, opinions and any mods concerning the 1200 G and the upcoming 10R.
doug > atmosphere has modded his 1200 G with a 12" Tri-planar. I think this tonearm with XLR terminations would be a game changer.
Thanks
nkonor |
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@audiofun , please keep us in the loop on the results of your regulated LPS supply adventure. As a fellow GAE owner I might want to follow a similar path.
Lance
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I intended to write "breathy female vocals". |
Dougolsen:
Hi Doug. If I may humbly suggest a couple of things. Before you go to the expense of an arm to negate an artifact of which the root cause does not seem to be the arm, you may want to investigate a few other avenues. I have found (over the year and 2+ months I've owned this deck) that two factors can cause brightness and a sort so sterility.
if the bearing has less than a SOLID 700 hours of time on it, the deck (or I should more correctly state, my deck) sounds a bit out of sorts, a-musical if you will while in automatic mode. The unit displays a sort of colder non-continuousness. I know this non-continuousness is not intrinsic to the table. I ran my unit in manual torque setting mode at 20% of full power and that sounded great. Once I had logged the aforementioned hours, the auto mode trumped manual mode significantly.
The other culprit is the switch mode power supply. That supply absolutely introduces a sterility and life robbing attribute to the sound. One way to test this is to play another source with breathy remain vocals. Try Eva Cassidy "Somewhere Over the Rainbow" from another source if you have it (the music is just a suggestion which I know easily demonstrates how bad the supply denigrates the sound). First listen to about 45 seconds of Eva with the GAE powered up, next unplug the GAE (it is NOT enough to turn it off as it is essentially still on simply in low power mode) and play the same 45 seconds of music (beginning of the track). You should hear a startling difference in presentation.
Solutions: I know of three ways to mitigate the unfortunate effects of the SMPS. 1. Have a LPS replace the crappy internal SMPS (this is what I'm in the process of doing). 2. Get a really long extension cord and connect the GAE as far away from your other components as possible. 3. Utilize Blue Cirlces line of filters designed specifically for the problems of virulent SMPS noise. Gilbert's products (some of them are units which you simply plug in next to your system, they have no inlets) really really work and are the ONLY devices I've found so far to significantly negate the problems of SMPS's.
Using the Blue Cirlce filters along with a longer cord and a PS Audio P5 on my source components along with the midrange and tweeter amplifiers has gone a long long way to quell the nasties of the power supply.
My regulated LPS supply is still in the design/build stage.
i hope this helps. Economical solution? get a long extension cord and one of Gilbert's less expensive filters, plug the TT in as far away from your stereo as possible and then plug the Blue Circle filter in right next to the extension cord (at the outlet).
I promis you that a tonearm swap will not absolve you of the problems of a SMPS, it may sound different but the table will still be its own worse enemy.
That supply is the one weakness in an overall brilliant design. Unfortunately they have chosen to repeat this error in the upcoming SP10-R.
Hope this helps. |
Atmosphere,
I own the SL-1200G and find it bright. Fremer and others on the net also find this artifact. Not on every recording but many. I'm intrigued by the Tri Planar, once owned and loved one. Would the Tri-Planar sound warmer on the SL-1200G as I would want to tame down the brightness. Also, if I opt for a Tri-Planar, where can i acquire a quality armboard for my deck? If you are inclined to respond I will be very appreciative.
Regards,
Doug Olsen |
Secondly when you say that the tonearm is on the 1200 is superb, do you
mean the one on the GAE or also the G (which has a inferior one) ? The arm is very good but I would not say excellent, although it easily takes on many high end arms. Just like the 'table, the arm looks the part of the original 1200, but its made of superior materials and superior machining with better bearings. But as I mentioned, I feel its the weak link of the new 1200, which is why we installed a Triplanar on it. |
Thanks very much, audiofun. I saw the GAE on eBay a couple of months ago for $6K, but have not seen one since. I appreciate your insights on the differences between the GAE and G versions. Very helpful!
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waltersalas:
That is because the GAE was a limited edition version with only 1200 units made available worldwide.
The G version is the generally available version of this table and it is the USD$4K price was originally set for this variant of the table. Technics decided to price the GAE at the same price as the G as a sort of added bonus for those who signed up early. Basically Technics did not upcharge for the GAE badging or differentiated silicone formulation in the feet of the turntable.
Essentially if you purchase a G, you will have the same TT that I have on my rack minus the badge and with a slight difference to the mechanical nature of the feet (i.e. silicone formula).
Like all things you can find a GAE on ebay; for a price that is. |
For those of you with the 1200 GAE table, where did you buy it? I cannot seem to find one for sale...anywhere. Thanks in advance. |
pani:
They (GAE and G) are the same table sans the anniversary-badge and a different formulation for the silicon feet in the GAE.
The GR is the table that Technics made some concessions with in order to make it affordable to a wider audience. |
My understanding is that the GAE and G have the same arm. Only the feet are different.
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