I found a wikipedia entry for Lincoln Walsh to help answer some of my own questions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln_Walsh
It provides some info regarding the relationship between Lincoln Walsh, his speaker designs, and others including Ohm and John Strohbeen.
it states:
"Unfortunately, Walsh died before his speaker was released to the public. Current Ohm Chief Engineer, John Strohbeen further developed Walsh's concepts." |
My one-month comparison:
My perception in comparing the F and Series 3 drivers is that the new drivers have a more powerful low-end. The tweeters have a louder very high-end although directional. The 200s play louder than the F's could. I wonder what the 300s sound like.
I perceive the upper midrange on the new drivers to be a little more restrained than the original F's. But this seems to me like a small variation on the original character, which did not have in-your-face midrange either.
In the room where I spent a year listening to the F's they provided gut-punch air movement as well. However, this was the fully-enclosed living room of a small apartment. I'd be surprised if they could do the same in the room I'm listening in now.
This morning I was experimenting with repositioning. I ended up standing directly between the two speakers, and out of the direct path of the tweeters. I could still perceive the 3d soundstage arced widely in front of me.
Unsound, I guess the only way that you would be able to appreciate the significance of experiencing this "Walshness", the only "Walshness" that matters to me would be to hear it. Perhaps the sound of the speaker is less important to you than the implementation. |
I wonder if anyone out there has ever tried to custom-build a 2-way, downward firing OHM CLS-like design using conventional drivers where the bass driver sits on top of the enclosure and fires downward, and if so what were the results? Has any owner of Ohm Walsh speaker cabinets, or someone who might build a custom cabinet from scratch, ever tried this?
Inquiring minds want to know! Pictures to go with the description would be a bonus!
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Mapman,
I'm noticing quite a bit of "eq" difference as I move the speakers relative to the back wall. It seems to me that placing the speakers closer than 12-15 inches to the wall is related to the upper-midrange effect I was describing.
At 12-15 inches out, and forward of the 50" flat screen, it seems to open up quite a bit. Have you noticed anything similar? The shape of your room is quite different so this might not correlate. |
With both my Walsh2 S3's in a 12X12 room and my f5 S3's in an L shaped ~27X20 foot room, I've found the soundstage and imaging is best defined with the speakers at least 2-3 feet away from any wall (proportionally further in a larger room perhaps) and the speakers maybe 30-40% closer together than their distance to the primary listening position. With this configuration, instruments are very well defined and locatable within the soundstage, which fills in nicely from wall to wall mostly from behind the plane of the speakers.
Currently, my Walsh 2 S3s are less than ideally located only about 18 inches from the rear wall in a 12X12 room due to restrictions placed by my wife in her sunroom. This reduces the detail of the soundstage somewhat but otherwise they still sound great.
My original Walsh 2s from ~1982, which I just upgraded this year, paled by comparison in a/b tests in most every aspect of sonic rendering with the S3s. |
MWr0707,
One thing I'm realizing with the Ohms is that I think an easy and sound way to determine best placement is to think of your room as a concert hall and identify where in the room you would place the performers in the room if they were playing live and then where you would like to sit to listen.
Then Place the Ohms immediately to the front of the performance area. Avoid placing too close to the walls if possible. The soundstage should then cover the area desired as best as is possible.
Lean towards placing the Ohms closer together rather than farther apart when unsure. I've found the soundstage holds together better when the speakers are not too far apart.
With the Ohms, its like setting up a live performance. It becomes an exercise in placing performers within the room based on where you will listen from. Like a live performance, the best seats are usually front and center somewhere, but there are plenty of good seats in the house, unlike most conventional speakers. |
It sounds like you do not notice any variation in tonal balance relative to position, is that correct?
If that is so, I may try experimenting in another room. Which would be quite an "exercise". 8-) |
Tonal balance will vary with location based on room acoustics as is the case with any speaker. All rooms are different and affect sound differently.
I think I can say with confidence that the best results with tonal balance is most likely to occur as well if the speakers are not too close to the wall.
In my case, the upper midrange of my Walsh 5's (adjustable 300 drivers, see photo of the adjustments in my system section), which are 5 feet out from the wall in a much larger room is more "restrained" than the 100 drivers in the smaller room. This is intentional in my case in that I have the "perspective" adjustment set to "far". I think this setting attenuates or lowers the midrange level.
My Walsh 2's (100 driver) may be more analogous to your 200s in that, though smaller and designed for smaller rooms, there are no adjustments. I've had these in two very different 12X12 rooms which I can say confidently did affect the tonal balance to some extent based on room acoustics. |
Mwr0707, do you recall if the soundstage of the F's was located primarily behind the speakers when listening straight on axis like the CLS series 3 drivers?
Maybe there is a difference here that you perceive as "more restrained" upper midrange?
With the Walsh 5 S3 drivers, the "perspective" adjustment, which corresponds mainly to midrange, I believe can be set to "close", "medium" or "far". The "far" setting seems to move the soundstage more back behind the speakers when listening dead on.
Unfortunately, I do not know which settings on the Walsh5 S3 match or come closest to matching the sound of the 300 or 200 drivers, which do not have adjustments.
You might want to pop John Strohbeen an email and get his input. |
Mapman,
I remember the 3d nature of the F's soundstage, but I cannot recall the forward/back placement.
My challenge in the current room is that I cannot place seating any farther than 11 feet back from the front wall, because of a 1/3 back wall.
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I suppose I could turn the setup 90 degrees so that the speakers are in the leg of the 'L', (I guess, kind of like you have it), but I really enjoy the sound from way back in the kitchen. |
Maybe a slight adjustment with speakers slightly closer together and maybe a touch farther out from the wall, if possible like below?
The "more restrained" upper midrange may just be the nature of the 200s timbre. having never heard Fs, its hard for me to say, but I think the S3 drivers natural upper midrange could be described that way compared to some speakers. I would say it is "more restrained" than my Dynaudio Contour 1.3 mk IIs for sure, but this is not a bad thing for me in my case.
You might try different interconnects perhaps to adjust this somewhat if desired. What source devices and interconnects are you using currently? I use several different types. OF these the MIT Terminator 2s I use off my CD would be my choice for this purpose compared to others I use (DNM Reson and HArmonic TEchnology Truth Link), which tend to also be more restrained.
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MWr0707,
I used to sell many of Ohms non-Walsh dynamic models years ago, including the E, L, C2, and H. Unfortunately, the shop I worked in never got a pair of As or Fs so I never heard these.
I still have and enjoy my Ls that I've had now for ~ 30 years (see my system photo).
However, most of these models, including my Ls, had a similar tonal balance, which I believe was modeled after the F, if I recall correctly, which was the flagship model of the time.
Many of these models had high and low treble or midrange level adjustment switches on them, but in general, the sound of these speakers, which I remember well, and still experience with my Ls is significantly more forward in the upper midrange, compared to Ohms latest drivers (my Ls and f5s are in adjacent rooms for easy comparison).
The tonal balance/timber of the series 3 drivers are definitely more recessed and perhaps neutral sounding or perhaps laid back in this range compared to my Ls or my Dynaudio or Triangle monitors. The Triangles timbre probably matches the Ohm S3 drivers most closely of these three.
I use phono, CD and FM tuner sources mainly. I switched from the DNM REson interconnect to the MIT Terminator 2 with my Denon CD, which was the only source in my system which I felt needed a tweak in this area with the F5s. The results now are more to my liking, definitely a touch "brighter" and more forward but still smooth as silk.
I picked up my MIT terminator 2 interconnect on Ebay for less than $50. |
Mapman,
Since the TV is about 56" wide, I can't move the speakers closer together without them standing in front of it. My CD/DVD source is the Oppo 981HD which has me considering an additional audio-only player like the Cambridge Audio 840C. My FM tuner is built-in to the Outlaw 990 and sounds similar to the oppo. Same with the music channels from the cable tv box. I'm using very cheap interconnects and the same 16 gauge lamp cord to the speakers I've had for 30 years.
I've using digital connections from the CD/DVD and the cable tv box.
I've always been a bit skeptical about the impact of cable changes, but your description has me thinking it might be worth checking out.
But it sounds like you are hearing close to what I am. Just as you described, I'd like to go a bit stronger in the upper midrange. |
Mapman,
It is interesting to me that running the speakers without the grille covers takes the upper midrange to just about what I'm after.
These are the original 20-year-old FRS-11 covers, so I wonder if more transparent cloth is available. |
Good catch! If you're hearing a difference with the covers off, definitely change the fabric.
Try your local fabric store. I re-did the fabric on my old Walsh 2's myself once, mainly because the original fabric had worn and I wanted to change the color to match decor. I found very loosely weaved light cream colored medium strand wool fabric in the local fabric store that I was able to stretch and shape over the frame, staple to the underside of the grill, and trim. It had a few folds along the seams, and looked ugly underneath the grille mainly to my laziness in trimming excess fabric, but looked really nice from the outside! The loose weave provided sonic transparency via the holes between the stitching when stretched around the frame.
Or if you know anyone handy with a sewing machine, it wouldn't be to hard to even sew up the seams or even have something professionally custom made, for an even cleaner look if needed.
Or just call Ohm and see what they might have to offer. |
Wow! You guys have been busy, LOL. I go away with the flu for about 5 days and the post has gone crazy. Heheheh.
Anyway, barely feeling alive, but will chime in..
Answers to some of the questions previously asked...Regarding my versions and rebuilds...
Freq response is down to 30 Hz, actually lower, but conservatively rated. Free air is at 25 Hz.
High end is extended to above 20KHz.
Nominal impedance is 6 ohms.
VC's will handle 150 watts RMS at 300 Deg. C.
I do not recommend them for levels sustained above 96 db with HEAVY base passages, without heavy base they will do 98 to 100 easily. This is at 12 feet from the speakers! I find them to be plenty loud. This level I attain using less than 10 watts. These speakers have an Xmax of about 10 to 12 mm. Exceeding this will damge them as with any driver blown beyond its limits.
The original drivers were not truly designed as underhung motor assemblies and some were pre-loaded. The weight of the cone and the sloppy spider caused the VC to hang out of the magnetic gap and seriously reduced the efficiency of the speaker and its capabilities. Proper underhung design and a few tricks to deal with the weight have changed this problem and now the speakers get quite loud with minimal inputs. They do sound best however when driven with amps capable of considerable dynamic headroom.
I would recommend a room of at least 300 sq. ft. for the TLS-I and 500 sq. ft. or more for the TLS-II.
I do not recommend less than 100 watts per channel TUBE or 300 watts SS for the TLS-I and much more for the TLS-II. (Or the F's or the A's) They do not need it to voice or even sound good, but the dynamic head room works wonders. They just open up.
The best room placements I have found seems to be about 8 feet from center to center of the cones and at least 3.5 feet away from the rear wall and 3 feet from the corners. Corner bass traps and rear wall reflection control works well. Placing a flat screen TV on the wall or between them may cause some issues, or degrade sound.
The soundstage depth can be controlled somewhat by the closeness to the rear wall.
BTW, John Strohbeen is not the original designer of the A's or the F's. Lincoln Walsh discovered the concept and the founder of Ohm Acoustics, Marty Gerstin designed the A's with Walsh's help. The firt "A" was released in 1971 just after Lincoln Walsh passed away. Sadly, He never got to see or hear his creation. Marty Gerstin, then went on further refine the A's and to develope the "F", relesed in 1972, as a little brother to the "A". Again, further refining the concepts gained from the originals. The "F" was smaller and easier to drive, but did not have the full sonic merits of the "A's" which had and have no comparrison.
Though the cones were 3 times as heavy and they were very power hungry, they could produce bass that would involuntarily relieve a person as well as cause some damages to home objects. Yet they had a very delicate and nuanced high end. The later coment was not necessisarilly documented by Ohm, but was experienced by others and myself in the early years.
Marty is also responsible for designing the unsual and special voice coils that made the "A" and "F" possible. This concept was pattented as well.
John Stohbeen, the former owner of Tech Hi-Fi aquired Ohm Acoustics from Marty between 76 and 78. Through some of Johns efforts, the "F" was redesigned and or went through changes, until it was retired in 84. John then came up with and patented the idea now embodying the current Ohm products.
The most unfortunate problem now plaguing most people is that there have not been any of these speakers remaing in pristine condition or properly rebuilt from which to compare current product or the originals. The others whom have actually heard the originals are relying on fading memories, as these are 30 to 35 years ago.
Even I can't remeber those experiences, except to say that the original "A" and "F" set me on this path and BLEW me away forever.
Refurbished and upgraded F's start at $6K, ...A's at $13.5K
New TLS-I @ $8K.....New TLS-II @ 15K
Good listening to all,
Dale. |
Dale,
Thanks again for the great info,
Allowing for our fading memories, 8-)
how would you compare the sound of the new speakers to the originals?
Although your setup is well outside my budget, I look forward to hearing the feedback from those who can swing it.
This does give some weight to the idea that John Strohbeen had the goal of producing as much "Walsh-like" sound as possible at a lower price-point, with a max price of 6K new and much less for those upgrading. I guess I'm fortunate that this is exactly what I needed.
I hope you are feeling better soon, and best of luck with your new designs. If I lived near you, I would definitely go for a listen. |
Dale,
Thanks so much for the info! it all sounds right to me!
I'm also hoping that your project, which is obviously the result of a knowledgeable guy with a passion who is on to something, receives much more attention down the road. I would love to hear your creations.
If you are ever in the Washington/Baltimore corridor area with your creations, I'll volunteer right now to help get them set up and give them a listen! |
MWr0707,
I bet your FRS-11's are not on castors. If so, maybe consider putting them on castors in order toenable you to reposition the speakers easily if desired for optimal listening at a particular room location, if the speakers cannot reside there normally due to room constraints.
I did this with my old Walsh 2s, which were not on castors. THe F5s are.
If you are comfortable with a battery powered screwdriver and drill, it may not be very hard to do with stock castors that you can pick up at Home Depot or euquivalent. As long as the speakers sit squarely on the castors, there is no practical sonic affect from doing this due to the vertical firing nature of the driver.
If you do not like it for any reason, the casters can be unscrewed from the bottom and removed.
Or, maybe John at Ohm can provide a set of the nice heavy duty locking castors they use and provide guidance on installing them.
Just an idea to help provide some flexibility if needed in your room. |
Thanks for the compliments and encouragement. I truly appreciate it. I extend an open invitation to anyone whom wishes to make the journey to my shop and home for demo's and tours.
Regarding the last comment on the castors... I have found that the single greatest improvement that I could render to these speakers (night and day improvement) was redesigning the base and adding the very high quality metal cones. Coupling these to the floor cleaned up the entire sound accross the board. Perhaps you can try it with the other products.
Parts Express sellls some very good quality cones from Dayton Audio and very attractive as well. These will keep you in budget. I would recomend the heaviest cones that run about $20 for a set of 4. Believe me, it is the best $50 you will ever invest.
For those whom may be interested, I presently use:
Conrad Johnson preamps, mono block tube amps, Jolida JD 100A CD transport, A Luxman turntable with Premier MMT fiber arm and varous styli. I employ dedicated 30 amp lines with their own power conditioner and ground system, silver interconnects of my own design and various speaker cables, such as 4TC, 8TC and siver, some of my design too.
I have aslo successfully employed some of Carvers magnetic field amps in place of SS amps to power my creations.
Great listening.
Dale.
dale@hhr-lasers.com |
The last post here was from Dale, 7 years ago! Where are we now with Walsh drivers? |
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Thanks Jedenite24 for your response.
It looks like Dale is the one true continuation of the Walsh legacy. I bought a pair of Ohm Fs back in the late 70s and powered them with a 500 watt McIntosh. It was an amazing sound. I sold them in the early 80s when I needed the cash.
I picked up a pair of Ohm Walsh 2s a couple of years ago and have a Sony STR-AV880 amplifier, which sounds OK but no longer at those lofty audio heights. I do hope someday to obtain one of Dale's new designs and a new amp, but till then will have to just go on my memories and readings. |
For their time, a really great concept and well executed. Still very good today. I use 4th order active xovers on my 4s (with 1/3rd oct active EQ) with 4th order at 45Hz to stereo active 12" Dayton subs. Added 2" thickcotton batting on all interal walls and braces, too. Yes, pretty large boxes but the casters help. So open, so smooth, so extended at both frequency extremes. |
FWIW and FYI. Ohm owner/founder John Henry Strohbeen has died in Brookly, NY.
From an Oct 17 FB post on the Ohm pages... OHM SPEAKERS | Facebook
"Dear Audiophiles, Artists, Engineers, Designers, Friends, Contemporaries, and Associates of John Henry Strohbeen III,
We are sad to share that John passed away recently in his adopted home town of Brooklyn, New York. He left too soon. He was an avid audiophile and engineer who was continuously working to innovate and improve his products, and he had unfinished designs on his desk, unwritten emails to send, and unknown listeners he looked forward to meeting."
Dang...
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I remember Ohm A's and F's.....didn't have a wallet fat enough, but absolutely loved them both...I think I heard them with Phase Linear amps
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