Ohm Walsh Micro Talls: who's actually heard 'em?
I think the recording is a big factor in staging/imaging/height more than we care to admit. I do find it interesting how each recording in general is different in certain areas. Before I bought the Ohm MWT'S omni's, I had this idea that because of the way the tweeter was pointed straight up at the ceiling, that music would be splashed all over the place and not have much of an image or staging to speak of. I was so very wrong on this account, and in some ways prefer the omni presentation to the "normal" Ohm speaker. Probably the thing it does give up to the normal Ohm driver config. Is the ability to have that same sweets pot no matter where you are sitting. You tend to have to be sitting more centered to get the affect, but my, what an affect it is. On some recordings, the omni can be a tad bit overblown or slightly un-natural in it's presentation, but it is a rare thing and again, more recording dependent. I typically have the "hot seat" anyway, so doesn't really matter much to me. Either way, the Ohm's are just a lot of fun to listen to, maybe not so much the defining and spot-lit definition overall, but thoroughly and utterly enjoyable. I probably just enjoy my tunes more when listening through the Ohm's. My Magnepan with subs are maybe a bit more used as an analytical tool, but still very musical and enjoyable. Really a big toss-up at times, I enjoy them both for different reasons I suppose. Tim |
Interesting how different recordings sound with the Ohms, isn't it? I just put on the remastered vinyl of Are You Experienced. On a conventional system, Jimi's sound effects bounce from speaker to speaker; on my 5000's, it seems to swirl- very cool to listen to. Then I put on a new version of Abbey Road (vinyl), which while very enjoyable seemed to have the top end of the treble muted. Just seems that the record is biased to the bass side. I've noticed that in my setup if I sit close, about 8 feet from the speakers, the bass is less noticable than if I move to 15 or 20 feet back. My particular room has an open dining room behind my listening area, with lower ceilings than in the main room, and also two steps up from the other floor. The net effect is that if I shift into the dining area I get the "blacony in the concert hall" sound. Nice to have these options, depending on my mood. James |
Hi guys, nice to see this thread still moving along. I think with the image height as others have said, is very recording dependant as is soundstaging(althought the very nature of the Ohm makes these things even better in my mind). I notice varying image height very much when I am playing around with my MWT/omni's. Last night I was listening to many different types of music, from Yellowjackets, Pink Floyd, and then decided to listen to some Who. On "Who's Next", image height was to the top of my 8' ceiling, whereas the other recordings I had been listening to were more about the 6' foot or so height. The omni MWT's are very interesting, the stage is more set back from the front plane of the speakers, yet pretty much blows the wall behind them away. My Ohm 3000's tend to be more all around the speaker. The MWT kind of challenged my preconceived notions of what they would sound like in a 2-channel setup-I had purchased mine with more of a surround/rear duty in an A/V setup. Moonglum, the next time you see or talk to Mathias, give him a "hello" from the USA for me. We corresponded a couple fo times via e-mail quite awhile back. He seems to be a very wonderful guy and has a passion for the Ohm's. I too would be intersted in hearing an actively driven pair of 5000's myself! Enjoy the music! Tim |
Hi Mapman, I'm seriously considering booking the odd 1 week holiday here and there and taking in demos of the 2 speakers I mentioned (Duevel's full omni vs Ohm's quasi-omni). Matthias, the European distributor is a very helpful chap and has offered the facility of User demos if I'm ever in the neighbourhood. I missed the chance to hear them during a recent German hifi exhibition (and to be honest he's probably given up on me thinking I've gone elsewhere but I simply take reasonable time to evaluate and choose products). No point in pestering the man when we have a Forum like this. :) I believe he also does his own active-crossovered version of the 5K which even John is impressed by relative to the top performing passive Ohm 5K.... :) I don't know how many people own them but the bass performance is clearly enhanced by this method. (Can you buy the "upgrade kit"? Food for thought :) |
Thanks Bondmanp....funny you should mention a sub-woofer. I've looked at 2 "omnis/quasi-omnis" in particular : the Deuevel Bella Luna (needs a subwoofer?) and of course the Ohm 5K (which for music, probably never needs a sub-woofer?) Certainly given the Ohms rendering of Organ music, it suggests that the Ohm is often better than many dedicated sub-woofers! :) This really makes the Ohm a front-runner in my book. I've heard too many speakers that drop off at 40Hz e.g. the Maggie 3.7 and for me that's just too limited. All the best.... |
Hi Marty, Interesting. I remember a collection of Beach Boys recordings where many of the tracks had been clearly recorded in the same studio with the same treatments. In these cases the voices appeared uniformly over 5ft but some tracks were clearly done elsewhere. In one case, a Beach Boy's voice appeared at the top of the L panel (>5ft) while his opposite number appeared (extraordinarily) at the BASE of the R panel (just above the sub-woofer)!! Generally I find that height is a function of loudness. Full height is coincidentally achieved when the vocalist is pretty much level, or a whisker behind, the speaker plane - but sometimes can be even further back. Drums and guitars are generally about 3-4 ft from the floor while flutes etc tend to be same height as the vocalists so it all leads to a very realistic presentation. Adding surround sound DSP increases the phasiness and results in all performers becoming slightly "taller" :) Reverb embedded within the recording is the primary reason for outside-the-loudspeaker effects just as the complete absence of reverb causes the sound to appear dead centre of the panel. Agreed that this sonic trickery is not based on reality but a function of the speakers using the room's reflective surfaces and also reverb/phasing within the recording itself. It is undeniably entertaining and experience enhancing :) |
Hi Mapman, Many thanks for your most detailed and informative reply. As a 'Stat user I can readily identify with the effects that you describe. It's good to hear that you are also experiencing "phase" effects which can place the sound in other parts of the room. Strangely enough I tended to hear those effects more with my old LP12 t/t than with the current Raven unsuspended table (I think attributable to the fact that the Raven has more dynamic contrast which ultimately leads to a more natural sound.) I won't mention the Logans presentation but simply say that the reason I asked was that I've been interested in Ohms for some time. It's always good to get genuine enthusiasts views (which you guys obviously are). The fact that you are so enthusiastic suggests that the Ohms are something special. I only have a single reservation regarding the Ohms and that is the fact that John uses a fairly massive driver to cover most of the audible spectrum from DC upwards. 10K is one serious upper limit for a bass/midrange driver but I guess we should acknowledge that some speaker designers swear by only using one driver (period) and thereby no crossover. :) Do you feel there is any sense of strain by the bass driver to capture those upper frequencies? Best regards..... |
Moonglum: I agree fully with Marty and Mapman regarding image hieght. I have just 6' ceilings in my man cave, and with good recordings, the vocalist is about a foot or so beneath the ceiling. FWIW, I run my 2000s with an Odyssey Audio HT3 (w/ cap upgrade), rated at 150 watts/channel. I do have them rolled off below 80Hz, first order, as my Vandersteen subs roll in. So, the level to the Ohms is down 6dB at 40Hz, and 12dB at 20Hz. I do not push my system so loud that it hurts my ears, but I play it pretty loud, and the system also serves as part of my home theater rig, which can get pretty loud, too (but I don't think I usually watch at "Dolby reference levels"). In the 2.5 years I have had them, I have never felt that they were either underpowered or being over-driven. And, just like Mapman, I take great pleasure in the fact that, at a fraction of the cost of statement speakers and gear, I have a system that gets closer to SOTA performance than I'd ever hoped for. |
Moon, I'd agree with Mapman, the height thing is really recording specific. One of my favorite "studio-stunt" recordings to demo the imaging capabilities of the Ohms (100s w/ a pair of Rythmik subs in my case) is found on Lindsey Buckingham's "Under The Skin". The track "It was You" bounces grouped/multi-tracked vocals around the stage - left/right, up/down, forward/back. This is not exactly a natural, audiophile approved recording technique, but a dramatic demo of how well the speakers place sources in space. Similarly, "Q sound" recordings are shown in full glory. IME, with more traditional recordings, results will vary too much to generalize. Marty |
".what sort of image height do you perceive when the vocalist is at realistic listening levels i.e. singing between speakers or slightly behind the speaker plane? If 5-6ft, does this effect extend to multi-tracked lead vocalist in either channel? That's a hard one to answer. Specific recording parameters are a big factor. You get what's there. Often, that is a lot. There is always good natural ambience to vocals that make them sound natural in the space and easy to locate, usually somewhere between the driver height and the ceiling, from a typical listening position, but are seldom pinpoint in location, more like a live performance than what you would hear typically between two smaller stereo speakers. THis tends to carry over even into mono recordings and make those seem very lifelike with a natural 3-d ambience, though not stereo, sometimes it can be hard to tell it is pure mono. The omni-like wide dispersion helps keep the presentation sounding coherent from most anywhere you would listen from, so the sweet spot is essentially quite broad. "Reading back through this Thread I'm staggered at some of the amplifier power reserves being rumoured. In the case of 500W or 1000W > 4 ohms, how does the Ohm 5000 react to Telarc 1812 type peaks? I've seen this type of program material blow many a fine bass driver :( What is your experience?" I have 5s, series 3, not 5000s, which I expect are similar, but I can speak for the 5s. I have some old telarc CDs and records and I have witnessed exactly what you are talking about back in their heyday. They are known for overall dynamic range and peaks. Lots of music I play has very demanding peaks, like orchestral, big band, electronica, etc., both on CD and record. My goal with the OHM 5s and use of monster amps as I call them with same was to be able to raise the roof and go as loud as I would like without stress, breakup, compressed dynamics, etc. Like the biggest baddest systems one might hear out there, but at a price point I might handle. I would say I accomplished that goal and have been most pleased. WHen I listen, I realize how fortunate I am to have been able to get to where I am audio/sound wise. Some recordings make me nervous when I know what is coming next, not wanting to have to deal with any expensive repairs due to accidents, but I have yet to hear any of those bad things in my main rig with the BC ref1000m amps and the OHM 5s. I am not as brave with the rest of the gear I have at home, though most of it does quite well still in these regards by most any audiophile standards I would say. |
Dear Mapman...what sort of image height do you perceive when the vocalist is at realistic listening levels i.e. singing between speakers or slightly behind the speaker plane? If 5-6ft, does this effect extend to multi-tracked lead vocalist in either channel? Reading back through this Thread I'm staggered at some of the amplifier power reserves being rumoured. In the case of 500W or 1000W > 4 ohms, how does the Ohm 5000 react to Telarc 1812 type peaks? I've seen this type of program material blow many a fine bass driver :( What is your experience? Many thanks.... |
Kbuzz - I started with a new pair of Ohm Walsh 2000s in my combo 2-channel/HT system, leaving my Vandersteen center and surrounds in place. The back surrounds were and remain a pair of Paradigm Atoms. I sold my Vandersteens (2 pairs of 1Cs and the center). Then I found a pair of MicroWalsh Talls here on A'gon from a nice, local seller. They were a little banged up, but nothing horrible, and the price was right! These are now my L/R surrounds. I doubt you'll see a used Ohm center for sale. I bought the smaller center channel from Ohm (talk to John Strohbeen, and he'll let you know what is appropriate for your set up). It was $700 plus shipping. It is not very large. It is shaped like an upside-down "T". The cabinet is about 16" wide, 3" high, and 5" deep (all approximate). Sitting atop the cabinet is a can roughly the size of a MicroWalsh Tall can, with its cap. I have it on a low, angled stand beneath my Plasma display. While I am much less passionate about film than music, I feel my surround presentation is more than adequate. The uniformity of sonics from one Ohm to the next is outstanding, and a hallmark of John Strohbeen's, IMO. Phealon: Congrats on the wonderful find! I agree with you about the need for a base. I have cement floors (carpeted). While John was confident that bases were not needed, my floor is uneven, so the speakers rocked a bit (not rocked as in rock 'n' roll, but as in wobbling). I ordered a custom set of cradle bases from Sound Anchors for about $325, with three-point adjustable spikes. Sure enough, the sound improved, with cleaner transients, better definition and increased detail. Stph: That Kedo speaker uses a Manger midrange driver!! I have heard this driver in a local DIYer's speaker, and it is a remarkable thing. It is a very expensive driver, and the carbon fiber cabinet ain't cheap, either. These have to be $30,000 speakers. Although not a walsh design type, this speaker is clearly designed for 360 degree radiation. |
Sndsrtaud, IT can vary, but I use DNM Reson ICs throughout my system. I like these for their flexibility, cost effectiveness, coherence and overall clarity. The bass tends towards the leaner side compared to some ICs but is very articulate and full and a nice match to the OHMs. For a fuller low end, I also like MIT networked ICs. I use the older and less expensive Terminator series ICs. I tend to prefer these more with my monitors. FOr speaker cables, I have no clear preference. I use industrial grade in wall speaker wire to my f5s which reside in the room adjacent to my gear. The results are very good having tuned everything accordingly. In my main room where my gear resides, I use more expensive AUdioquest cv6 speaker cables. I have had my 100s and Triangle monitors in there. My Dynaudio monitors are in there currently. The CV6 sounds very open and dynamic in there with all, but the OHMs tend to respond to tweaks the most. |
I had their original series Bose 501s in my college dorm and although they had some real limitations - for the $250 I paid (used) they had a great soundstage in a small room and served the purpose at the time. The Bose 901s used too much reflected and not enough direct sound for my taste. I listened to them back in the day around the one and only time I heard Ohm F's. My buddy's parents had 901's with the active equalizer, McIntosh for power and a high end turntable. Within a month or so of hearing their system I listened to the Ohm F's at a tech Hi-Fi store. They demo'd them with the grilles off. I was sold on the sound and the pair I just acquired.... 39 years later... sound just as good to me as when I first heard that sound. That was a great article on Bill LeGall - sounds like an amazing guy. Apparently he was only doing one set of F's per year and now no longer does them at all. The seller I dealt with lives 20 minutes away from Bill and bought them directly from Bill so I know the provenance is legit. I repositioned them yesterday to be across the 14.5 foot long wall and they are now roughly 21" in (at the base)from the back and side walls. The only material I threw at them that was problematic was Shirley Horn's album "The Main Ingredient." Steve Novosel's acoustic bass lines were going so deep that I was getting funky resonance from the hardwood floors and the bass was crazy boomy (played a dozen or more other albums over the weekend and this was the only one where it happened. Today I bought a couple of 18" square concrete pads (look like stone but are cast concrete.) Painted them satin black, put self adhesive furniture "Super Sliders" on the bottoms and put the speaker bases and cabinets on top. Boominess is gone and the bass on Shirley's disc. although to still goes insanely deep, is taut and controlled. An audio forum I perused suggests to use two of these pads with a barely inflated inner tube between them (just enough air so that it forms a 5mm gap between them when the top pad and speakers are in place. Not sure I'll even bother with that - the improvement is so dramatic with the single pad. That being said... I think I need to start trying some homemade tube traps etc. and see what else will improve this already stellar sound. |
Interesting design, but it doesn't appear to use a Walsh driver. The only other manufacturer of Walsh drivers that I know of is Physiks in Germany, who produce frightfully expensive and prodigious (the top of the line weighs nearly 1000 pounds) speakers. Part of the appeal, supposedly, of the Ohm is that the Walsh driver in original form produced coherent waveforms across the spectrum. Electrostatics should do the same. The only other "omnidirectional" speaker I've heard was the Bose 901 series, which actually uses direct and reflected sound- I never cared for them much. |
With recent mentions of Miller Sound and John Potis, I happened to come across this which I thought a very fun read: Road Tour |
Stph, There aren't that many omnis out there. As to the best known brands, here's one thought: The big Ohms don't cost enough. The big MBL costs too much. Just about every reviewer seems to own a pair with a price tag somewhere in between. Marty Omnis also stretch the purist notion of "accuracy" since studio and mastering monitors aren't omnidirectional. They're not often dipole planars either, but people seem somehow to have less issue with that delta. |
Omni's are a different beast with a totally different presentation. Would not make any sense to use them as a reference to compare traditional designs against. You can compare and contrast but its essentially apples and oranges. Nevertheless, I have seen it done on occasion. The late John Potis was an OHM speaker fan for many years, reviewed them and used them for comparison to other products he reviewed. |
Congrats on your find. I remember the Ohms from my college days in the early/mis 70s too, but all I could afford were the EPI 150s. I think stabilizing the Ohms whichever way you can will help the performance. I used a Symposium knock-off under my 100s and noticed improved focus, I will use the same under the 300s when they arrive this week. Your pre-/amps should be fine. Have fun! |
Oh gosh... I did it now. Drove four hours each way yesterday from Syracuse to Philly and back... returning with a pristine pair of restored Ohm F speakers! I've been watching them get re-listed on Craigslist for a few months with no action - likely because the owner was holding firm at $1300 and wanted to sell them with local pickup only. He mentioned that they had new surrounds etc. but didn't specify who did the work. We agreed on a price of $1200 based on successful audition and only them did he mention that the rebuild was done by Bill LeGall of Millersound. Google him and you'll discover that he is one of the only two people routinely mentioned as having the requisite skills and experience to properly restore Ohm F's that have failed internal and external foam. Dale Harder of HHR Exotic Speakers is, of course, the other qualified guy but I have the impression that most of his time and energy these days is focused on building his own line of TLS speakers using the Walsh design principles with new materials and some design improvements. Much as I wish I could afford a pair of Dale's speakers it's not int he budget right now so these F's were my best bet. In addition to putting in new silver wiring from the banana plug receptacles to the inside of cone (or so it appears,) Bill redid the foam and rubber surrounds, removed the goop of the old internal foam damping material and then used strategically placed placed pieces of Dynamat for damping on the internal side of the metal portion of the cone (I'm not sure but I think maybe this is done only on the titanium section?) Perhaps most promising is that he added an additional spider that relives some of the workload of and stress on the original spider. The purchase included the top hats (grilles) which are still in reasonable shape although I may recover them in black grill cloth or perhaps even build a new set from scratch. They also cane with base assemblies that allow them to be raised about 14" higher off the floor. I'm trying the bases for now and will then remove them to compare sound. Good thing I don't have Spousal Acceptance Factor to contend with - these things are huge to begin with and the bases have them coming in at five feet tall! The cabinets were stuffed with some good quality cotton acoustic grade batting for dampening but the seller advised me that Bill said to remove 1/2 to 3/4 of it after the rebuilt cones had been broken in. I took about half of it out but saved what I removed - just in case. On to what counts: the sound. Holy Crap! I fell in love with the original Ohm Walsh sound back in 1973 or 1974 when I was in high school and heard a pair of A's or F's (not sure which) at a Tech Hi-Fi store. Despite the challenges of my smallish living room - which has bookshelves, a fireplace and the audio gear shelves on the wall behind the speakers, a four foot wide open archway into the dining room to the side of the left speaker, and an eight foot wide open archway across the back (with an entry hall and stairwell behind) - the sound is still incredible. I have the speakers roughly eight feet apart (cone center to cone center, just under three feet from cone center to back wall, and finally the left speakers is about two feet in from the open archway and the right speaker is just over three feet from the side wall. Bass response on the right material is staggering... notes seem to hang in the air... soundstage is holographic... and placement of individual instruments is so precise that with eyes closed it's easy to think you are in the recording studio or in front of a stage in a small venue - hearing it live. Yes.... I finally have my speakers for life! Still need to sort out a few things. I was advised that there is an audible improvement if one plugs speaker wires directly into the banana receptacles on the back side of the driver assembly instead of the external ones at the cabinet base that lead up to the ones at the drivers. I've been running them that way today and can't really tell if it is more transparent with better highs as the tweakers suggested it would be (could be my aging ears just don't hear it.) I'm looking for some 18" square concrete pads (the ones that are used as garden walkway pavers and look like stone) to go underneath. I have a set of 12" square pads for the Ohm Walsh 2's and there was a noticeable tightening and improvement in bass response when I added those. Dale Harder strongly recommends using cones - I might try that instead. I've also seen some comments that amps capable of direct current power can be dangerous with these speakers. My HK Citation 22 (200 wpc at 8 ohms) has a "high current mode." Do any of you know if this is an issue of concern? The seller was running them with a 60 wpc solid state Bryston but they really do sound better now through my HK and Conrad-Johnson PV2 than they did at audition. By the way... the seller is a former full time musician who moved on to another occupation but tinkers with audio as a hobby. His ongoing "project speakers" make the Ohm F's look like little toys - and they're powered by a 7 watt SE triode amp! He has horn loaded Altec cabinets that are just under eight feet but has added external Electrovoice mid-range horns (the mid range horns alone weigh about 60 pounds each,) replaced the tweeter horns with ones of a more modern design (German brand whose name escapes me) and even clamped some external piezo super tweeters on the outside edges. They sounded HUGE although he didn't crank them as he's in a side by side duplex with neighbors. For me they lacked the presence of the F's but the sales i my gain :-) On a related note - I recently acquired a second pair of Ohm Walsh 2's. They had the old style brown cloth saggy grill covers (easily replaced as Ohm sells the nice tapered black ones on their web site.) They sound exactly like my other pair of 2's but the metal cans don't have the black dampening fabric on the back side or the top - you can actually see the entire tweeter assembly and everything else inside the can (which is cool to look at.) I'm interested in selling either pair of my Ohm Walsh 2's if any of you are interested. I want to keep one pair for a second system but have to sell one to help pay for the F's. |
Bondman and Mapman. I am quite familiar with the Silverline as I reviewed the SR17 for SoundStage!, worked a couple shows with Alan and sold the line when I had my shop. Absent a couple of duds which were short lived, Silverline makes some really excellent loudspeakers. I can’t say the Ohms are “better” because the Ohms, being a quasi-omni are a different type of speaker with a different presentation- a presentation I personally prefer and I think many other folks would too. |
Sndsrtaud - Thanks for posting that very extensive list of speakers! I have to admit that I have not heard of many of them, and have not heard most of them. I have heard some of the Silverline Audio speakers, and I usually refer to the Bolero as my dream speaker, so I found it interesting that you like your Ohms better than the Sonata, just one notch below the Bolero. Of course, loudspeaker preference is very personal, but I am with you on this. Every month I get to hear some very good speakers at my local audio club meeting, and it rare that I don't look forward to going home and firing up my Ohm 2000s afterwards. Mapman - I always keep an eye out for those early stereo LPs with the gatefold that include technical info and a diagram showing the layout of the performers. I have about a dozen of them at this point. They usually sound quite good. Some are demo records produced by or for an electronics manufacturer, like the Admiral demo LP I have, complete with pictures in the gatefold of Admiral console stereos! I love this hobby. |
Mapman. The 3000 are on the way from Ohm. I moved to a different house and am using different amps. I needed to go with the 3000 as my listening room has about 2X the volume of my old room. But hereÂ’s the thing.IÂ’ve owned/reviewed the following speakers over the past 40 years: Wharfedale W60, EPI 150, Braun L710, DCM Time Window, Spendor SP1/2, Mirage M3-si, Monitor Audio Studio 6, APL Serenade, JM Labs Daline 3.1, Micron Karat, Wisdom Audio 50, Clements 206di, Shamrock Eire, Equation 7, 9, Silverline S12, SR15, SR17, Panatella, Sonatina, Sonata, Galante Rhapsody, SAP Quartete, Klipschorn, Klipsch Belle, Heresy, KG4, Shahinian Obelisk, Omega Super 3, Harbeth C7II, Lamhorn, Altec Valencia, JM Reynaud Twin, Trente, Offrande, Magneplanar 1.2, GPA 604-8H, Ohm Micro Walsh, 100, ... IMO, the Ohms are on the top of the heap. IÂ’ll be sure to post an update once I get them, etc. |
It's a shame that they don't make many recordings like those anymore. The inside of the one lp's gatefold is filled with a bunch of technical information and charts and diagrams outlining the recording process in great detail, including where the players were located in the recording venue for reference in that the expectation is that you should be able to locate them within the soundstage at the locations indicated. Back in those days (very early 60's), hifi stereo recordings were new and a novelty that was marketed to the masses based on the sound quality in packages like these. Imagine that? I was just a young kid at the time but I think that was probably a big part of creating my interest in music and stereos at the time. THen the novelty of stereo hifi wore off I suppose for most except us audiophile type kooks and the rest is history I suppose. |
Mapman - I own a few. All bought for a buck or three each. I have a Mercury Living Stereo of Fredrick Fennel conducting songs by Cole Porter, engineered by Wilma Fine (pre-Mrs. Cozart days). It is pristine, both the LP and the jacket, and is one of the best sounding LPs I have ever heard. Enjoy your new finds! |
Thanks Mapman and Carja. I'd love to get my 2000s farther away from the back and side walls, but I have very little space to work with. The speakers are in an alcove of my 22' X 18' basement (with only 6' ceilings). The alcove is only about 9 or 10 ft. wide, and my seating position is about 12 ft from the front wall. So, with the 2000s about 3' away from the front wall, and about 2 to 2.5' away from the side walls, the speakers are barely 5' apart. Any closer together, and they would obscure the Plasma TV. I do have some acoustic foam at driver height behind and to the sides of the speakers, and I am thinking of removing at least the foam that is along the front wall. So, if I am understanding this correctly, Mapman thinks my Plasma TV centered on the front wall between the Ohms might be a good thing as is, while Carja would suggest covering up the TV with curtains for critical listening. Hmmm. What to do? I love the sound I have now, but there is not much depth, so I will continue to experiment. By the way, a local speaker builder has a wonderful web site with many interesting essays on hi-fi, including some on omnidirectional speakers. Check it out: http://www.parallelhomeaudio.net/PAMain.html |
Finsup the 4000's are set at the factory, but John Strohbeen (the president) is very reachable by phone and would be happy to talk with you about your particular room. The 4000's are cheaper by $1000 so one has to decide if the flexibility is worth it. I personally find that the adjustments are subtle and the instructions that come with the units are helpful. For example, there are recommended settings for corner placement, wall placement, and room placement that come with the 5000's. I personally wouldn't want a different set of speakers- I LOVE these units, and everyone who has heard them votes the same. Bondman yes that is correct; I already had a lot, especially when I was well back and slightly above my normal listening chair by sitting in my adjacent dining room. At that point, some 30 feet or more away, it was like sitting in the balcony of a live performance. Thanks mapman- I posted a comment in my system page. BTW I think that Pacific Valve sells top notch tube equipment and accessories, but I know that off brand Chinese imports are not everybody's cup of tea- the resell value is not so good, and there is not a prestige factor. |
I posted this to Carja's system thread but am including here also in case of value to others: I think the key to soundstage depth with the OHMS is distance from rear wall (several feet if possible) + some degree of sound reflectivity off the rear wall. The sliding glass door can work to your advantage with this but not if the speakers are too close to the wall. Distance from rear and side walls is needed to get adequate delay for reflected sound to produce needed spatial queues for widest and deepest soundstage. Since OHM omni sound output is attenuated by default to the rear to accomodate placement closer to walls desired by many for practical reasons, having a surface behind that refelcts the sound more can actually help to retain the needed reflected sound levels desired since the speakers are further out from the rear wall than intended and reflected sound levels lower in magnitude as a result compared to say a pure omni which will produce higher sound levels reflected from rear (and side) walls and when set up properly with distance from walls produce very deep soundstage. This is what you would hear with a true omni like mbl set up with 5 feet or more distance from rear and side walls. There are some good references on the internet that explains the geometry of stereo soundstage imaging and how distance from walls of 5 feet or greater in a typical set up is generally needed for best results. The listeners position in terms of distance to speakers relative to distance traveled by side and rear reflected sound is also a key factor. Also note that the addjustments on the 5000s are useful for boosting bass levels somewhat as may often be needed when speakers are far away from walls with less bass level reinforcement. Without these adjustments, bass that sounds right closer to walls may be somewhat less if away from walls. However distance from walls is needed for the biggest and deepest soundstage. It is a dilemma. OHM does not suggest 5 feet or more distance from the rear wall. That kind of common setup as recommended is a good compromise for most in that speaks are out of the way, bass levels good, but soundstage maybe not as deep as might be, if that is something that matters to you. ITs probably a lesser consideration for most, so a reasonable solution. FWIW, in my main rig with the 5s, I keep speaks over 5 feet out from rear wall and 4 feet or so from sides, the most possible in a fairly long and narrow room. In my 2 channel a/v rig where the 100s reside, they are closer to the rear wall for WAF and other practical reasons in our heavily used family room. SOundstage is not as deep, but still pretty good. |
...then you have the on-board adjustments to match to room size and acoustics so room size should not be a problem. The 4000's are actually the same speaker without the adjustment circuits. So if you know the size of your room and don't plan on moving them, John at Ohm can set the adjustment from the factory on a set of 4000's. Can one set the adjustment or does it have to be set at the Factory? It seems, if one can swing the extra coin, that the 5000 is more to be preferred over the 4000 given this flexibility. |
Right you are Mapman. There are actually four adjustment switches on the back of the 5000's, one of the selling points for going to the top of the line. The 4000's are actually the same speaker without the adjustment circuits. So if you know the size of your room and don't plan on moving them, John at Ohm can set the adjustment from the factory on a set of 4000's. |
These are 5000's right? IF so, then you have the on-board adjustments to match to room size and acoustics so room size should not be a problem. IF put my 5s with similar adjustments in my smaller 12X12 room just to see/hear how well they worked there compared to my 100S3s, and was able to adjust the 5s to sound very much like the 100s, although the physical cabinet size of the 5s took up too much floor space in such a small room in comparison to the Walsh 2 cabinets where the 100S3 drivers reside. 5000s are taller and narrower than 5s I believe so issues fitting into the room are more likely height of driver related in that in general the Walsh CLS speakers tend to sound best listening at a vertical level at or above drivers, especially if in a more nearfield listening scenario. |
Thanks Newbee and Mapman, last night I moved the speakers in a bit and the speakers disappeared; I was surrounded by music! Finsup the room size is a bit misleading from my photo. There is the dining room behind where I sit that is one foot above the listening area and extends about 20 feet behind where I sit. Similarly, off to the left, the room opens up into a large entrance way. The ceilings are about 11-12 feet high. So when I crank up the volume I can enjoy the music while dining or I can hear when I'm off to the wetbar on the left of the room. If the room were enclosed, I would have gone with the smaller speakers like the 3000 or 2000. |
Since you ask :-) First, that is a really nice looking set of speakers! Second, I suspect that you would greatly improve your sound stage IF you could shift all of the stuff, especially the speakers, 2 to3 feet further into the room and hang some heavy cloth panels on the windows. You could keep the shears and drapes on separate rods keeping the drapes open framing the windows except for those times you are listening critically. But I realize we all have problems and ideal set ups are not always possible. :-) |
