I have found the Wywire Platinum to be the sweet spot for me. If i can get them used all the better.
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I wanted to re-visit this important subject. It would appear that OP has not responded for some time? Anyone know about his buying decision? Second, in 2013 & 2014 I have had the good fortune of listening to some outstanding PC(s). Here are my strong suggestions; 1st place is no doubt the Stage III Concepts offered by Brian @ Aaudio imports. 2nd place goes to Silent Source offered by Frank / based in Dallas TX. 3rd place is a tie w/ Signal Cable and the newest Wireworld Electra 7. All of these PC are outstanding, to say the very least. Each is at a different price-point and requires careful consideration based upon the 10-20% cost of overall system value. Happy listening! |
"$2000 power cord actually has no more than total of $50 material + work." Czarivey, where exactly can I purchase the raw material for a MSRP $2000 cable for only $50? I'm sure I'm not the only one who would be interested in this info. My simple little DIY cable would cost me roughly $40/cable in material. And that is a pretty basic cable! |
Put a bi directional ac noise blocking cord on your digital. Put the best ac filtering cord you can afford on your pre. Make your own 10 gauge cord from materials at home depot for your amp. They will give your easy instructions, might even help you with it on a quiet day. There's isolation for your digital, conditioning for the precious small signals in pre and fast current for the aamp. Good start. Used cords are great value. |
"08-12-13: Drummermitchell Perhaps every 250.00+ pc cable,interconnect,SC ect should come with it's own recorder so we can hear the huge difference,recording doesn't lie. Not one cable manufacturer has a before and after recording(do they)of the effect their cable makes on the sound. Perhaps a Zoom H-2 handheld digital recorder will let us hear what's really going on." Maybe. But why record it if you can listen to it for real? The only upside I can think of to recording your stereo is that the absolute sound becomes your stereo system. Never thought I'd make that statement. |
I highly doubt if any big corp doesn't see LOTS of taxpayer cash. if only through the 8000 plus tax dodges their lobby lads have provided them. Big Pharma got hundreds of billions when their lobby got Medicare D, aka Pharma Profits Act, passed with the no negotiating proviso. VA pays 1/3 of what Medicare pays, big Pharma wasn't going to allow that to happen again. |
Perhaps every 250.00+ pc cable,interconnect,SC ect should come with it's own recorder so we can hear the huge difference,recording doesn't lie. Not one cable manufacturer has a before and after recording(do they)of the effect their cable makes on the sound. Perhaps a Zoom H-2 handheld digital recorder will let us hear what's really going on. |
Brownsfan, Thanks. I understand what you are trying to say now. The reason I'm so interested in the results is that the people who cite them, I feel, are not being completely honest with their intentions. Where you or I want to find out what the truth is in all this, I think some of the other posters just want to be right, and win the argument. Why? Because they just know their right. I guess. That's why we never get to see the tests. We'll point out the flaws and they won't get to be right anymore. I do agree that a perfect listening test is not possible. If for nothing else but human error. Things like mistakes and lack of concentration on the test subject are bound to happen. Where we may differ in opinion is that I feel a perfect listening test is not necessary for accurate results. I believe that if enough consideration is given in an effort to come up with the best possible listening test, we can factor in a healthy margin of error and end up with what we need to get solid results. Margin of error is very common in testing. I see no reason why we can't apply it here. That's why I'm so anxious to see these tests. I'm willing to bet that some of the people on this site will point out some of the obvious flaws and maybe we can come up with a better test. Its entirely possible I may be proven wrong on some things. I'm OK with that. I've been wrong before. |
Schubert, I work for one of the largest pharma companies. We don't see a dime of taxpayer cash. If we benefit from university research, we pay big bucks. The numbers quoted above for the cost of bringing a drug to market are accurate, and the research is funded by cash revenues generated by marketed drugs. Most university research is not aimed at discovery on new drugs. There are a few drugs on the market that were discovered by universities, but I can assure you, they are not dropped in the laps of pharma for free. Most pharma companies are working hard to bring down the cost of drug research. |
Zd, I understood your position, and I am in substantial agreement with your post. I think maybe our positions differ a bit in that you are asking for particulars about the test, whereas I am suggesting that such a test is fundamentally flawed. It is always difficult, if not impossible, to build a meaningful case on negative information. This is why guilt can be reasonably proven, but innocence cannot. My reaction to your post was not a reaction against it. Not to paint the anti PC camp with too broad a brush, but recently here and in Audio Asylum there has been a bit of mocking of the pro-PC camp, to the point of impugning the integrity of some well regarded manufacturers without having any direct experience with their products. Its fine to have opinions. Its not so good to insult other people with them. |
Brownsfan, I don't know if you got the point I was trying to make in my post. Like you, I hear differences in PC's. When I read the posts that said you can't hear the difference in PC's based on double blind testing, I question it. Not knowing anything at all about the blind tests mentioned, I don't take them at face value. Anybody can say anything. I just want to get more details to see if they really have something or not. |
The more resolving, ie better, a system is , the easier it is to hear differences ...This assumes that the designs of the components in the system that is more musically resolving are such that the system is also more sensitive to AC differences. IMO the two kinds of resolution do not necessarily go hand in hand. Many technical factors could be cited that can contribute to sensitivity to differences in power cords or other cables, that have nothing to do with the ability of a system to resolve musical information. With all due respect, IMO it is a common misconception among audiophiles, at least in the case of systems that are of reasonably decent quality, to assume that a strong correlation exists between sensitivity to differences between power cords, cables, or other hardware, and the ability of a system to resolve musical information. And as a corollary to that it follows that an inability to hear hardware differences does not necessarily say anything negative about the quality of the sound that the system provides. Or about the listener's hearing, for that matter. Regards, -- Al |
Zd, Remember when the audio rags measured equipment, but provided no narrative on an actual audition? Perhaps I misunderstand, but it seems to me as if that is what is occurring here. I used to be in the camp of the skeptics. I did not see how PCs could make a difference provided that they made a solid connection at both ends and did not restrict current flow. Then one day a friend loaned me 4 of his Vh audio AirSines while he was on vacation. I was just amazed at what those 4 PCs did for my system. One audition completely blew my preconceived notions out of the water. I subsequently bought 4 AirSines of my own, 2 VooDoo PCs, and one Audience E. In my system, the audience was a disappointment. I would never suggest the folks above who love audience cords are fools or can't hear. They found the right PCs for their system and I found the right PCs for mine. I think the idea of drawing universal conclusions based on a single scenario test is fundamentally flawed. One negative result cannot prove a universal principle. One positive result also cannot prove a universal principle, but it does demonstrate that a potential exists. Those who are certain that megabuck PCs are nothing but a $50 pile of junk marketed to rich simpletons might do well to remain quiet and explore that avenue as a sure fire get rich quick scheme. I wish them all the luck in the world. |
A couple of posters above, I believe it was Robsker and Schipo, talk about double blind testing and how listeners could not tell the difference between PC's. That's fine, but the problem I have is that I would like to see the tests myself. This is one of those emotional topics that people get caught up in on both sides. Its understandable for many reasons. My position is that I can hear differences in power cords. Sometimes its a big difference and other times, its very small. On occasion, I don't hear any difference. Not only that, about 50% of the time, I find the results to be negative over a stock cord. Its just a mixed bag of results. But there are results (usually), at least for me. The reason I state the above is to be very clear where my personal bias or experience is. If you guys want to cite tests that were done that contradicts what I know or believe, you have every right to. Not only that, I encourage it. I like to be challenged. But if you want me to take your posts seriously, though, you have to do a better job than to just say that you read about some tests. I want to know as much about them as I can. I need to read them for myself. I may even want to try them to see if I can get the same results. How else can we learn? With all the different people that post here, maybe we can even come up with a better test. |
the concept of diminishing returns ia very subjective and an economic assessment. i don't think a mercedes is worth $50,000, while some car buyers probably do. the notion that a $1000 power cord does not provide twice the performance as a $500 one is a moot point. each listener makes the assessment as to what a product is worth relative to another. disagreements are likely to occur. thus the concept of diminishing returns is not applicable to an aesthetic medium. it is useful where objective measurement is possible, such as in a production environment. this term was originally applied in micro economics. it is debatable whether it has any usefulness in audio. |
Al, You're absolutely correct concerning the very high cost of pharmaceutical development, testing, trials and finally FDA approval. Contrary to popular myth it's a very long and very costly process. Sometimes companies don't recoup their investments. There are losers as well as winners in this process. Charles |
Just like prescription medications which cost six cents a pill to make and sell for $700 for 30...I wouldn't draw any parallels with power cords, though. According to this article in Forbes research and development expenditures by a dozen major drug producers, from 1997 to 2011, divided by the number of their drugs that were ultimately approved and brought to market ranged from $3.7 to $11.8 billion dollars per approved drug. Regards, -- Al |
CharlesIdad, I remember reading Einstein in college where he said if some constant or other in the universe was different by one part in a million the law of gravity would not work. Thus for him it took more faith to believe in a scientific explanation of the universe than an intelligent creator thesis. |
Jl35... Where you say "now that the SE is out" are you saying there's now an SE version of the Audience PowerChord? Considering that the SE versions of the RCA and XLR interconnects appear to be the use of higher quality connectors, it would be really interesting learn what connectors are implemented on the SE version of the Powerchord. |
Schubert and Brownsfan +1, Very good and well stated thoughts. As much as I respect science and scientific method it isn't always adequate for everything we encounter. There are in audio things we clearly experience that can't be satisfactory explained with scientific principles exclusively. I simply trust what I hear. Charles, |
Power cables can be the trickiest upgrade of all. Throwing money at a power cable can be a recipe for disaster, if judging by price alone and not hearing with particular components in your system. As power cords can often make the sound better, they can also sound worse than stock cords on certain components. I currently have a relatively cheap power cord ($200 Harmonic Technology Pro AC 11) on my CD player. I also currently have an expensive ( $2000 Kubala Sosna Elation) power cord on my preamp. Sorry to those who laugh at me, but I can hear the difference. Each cable works well on the respective component, however the $200 Harmonic Tech sounds better on my CD player than the much more expensive Kubala Sosna! I'm happy keeping both where they are (the Kubala Sosna is better on my preamp), but just wanted to share a scenario where more $$$ is not always better for every component. Power cords seem to be component-dependent. It might be wise to audition cheap power cords, and if you like the sound, buy them. If you like the house sounds of a certain brand on a particular cord, but think you can do a little better, move up the line. But try to determine what sound you wish for, and which power cords might help the most. Different power cables are better at some attributes, while others have different strengths. Like others in this thread attest, I also believe Audience Power Chord e cables are good power cords. I use them on my mono bloc amps. |
Guys (and Elizabeth). The problem is that the double blind testing did not occur in my living room with my power with my equipment and my music. These tests show that in a particular context, PC's are below the threshold where a difference can be discerned. These tests cannot prove that in no context can any person hear a discernable difference. Come to my house. I will switch out my 6K collection of PC's for the $600 collection they replaced. You can bring all the blindfolds you want. Then tell me you can't hear a difference. I don't care if other people spend money on power cords or not. With all due respect, I get tired of other people telling me what I can or can't hear. I understand quite well the value of double blind testing and understand equally well the placebo effect. I am not a fool, and I don't throw money around foolishly, which is why I have 6K to put into a bunch of PC's that took my system and my enjoyment to a much higher level. How about I sell you all my $100 PC's, and we will both walk away happy? |
Schubert, I love the spirit and substance of your post above, although in light of what you expressed here, I must say that you were a bit harsh in your exchange with Mapman yesterday in the thread about Ohm Micro Talls, calling them a rip-off. It seems at odds with the view you expressed here. In other words, "value" is in the ears of the listener rather than the perceived material value of the speaker. Still, I really liked your eloquent comments here. |
Aftermarket cord can only introduce extra colors to audio with excessive reactance parameters brought into the power supply(that's why some of us can hear differences). Most of manufacturers advise not to spend money and use the stock one for this particular reason, but they don't realize that audiophiles don't like accuracy and like to shape sound with wires(extremely inefficient by performance and economically according to the today's market prices). For this purpose for shaping the sound the best device is EQ or some basic tone control board on your preamp. |
That's funny Pops ! I once heard the Navy Admiral in charge of all Naval Aviation explain why he preferred to recruit engineers as Naval Pilots. He said that, as a rule ,they were both intelligent and without enough imagination to see themselves smashing into the rear of the flight deck during night landings. |
wow. Interesting, impassioned and highly personal response to a simple stimuli. Seems like over reaction. Double blind testing in a controlled setting is a reasonable way to discern whether actual differences can be heard. And... as Schipo points out... well the data is in and here is what it says... even professional audio reviewers could not distinguish between power cords. That is not to say that people cannot enjoy one cord over another in their system --- people who enjoy tweeks and derive pleasure from modifying and experimenting with their system may like one PC better than another in their system. And, if so, good for them and it is money well spent. That does not, however, change the fact that trained audio professionals whose living it is to review audio systems could not distinguish between PCs based upon sound alone. |
