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Question on Denon DL-103 retipping options and preferences

I have been looking at getting a Denon DL-103 retipped and I have narrowed it down to getting it done by Steve at VAS or by Andy at Needle Clinic. 

Both companies approach to the DL-103 is very different and I am curious if anyone has heard cartridges from each or what you think that may be better for amazing sounding rock.

Steve recommends a wood housing and then will do a Boron/MR retipping, where Andy will modify the plastic housing on the DL-103 to convert it's enclosed outer body to a half nude body, lightening it up which he says will make it track better.  His conversion will be a micro ridge nude stylus (sapphire/boron cantilever) 

So as stated very different approaches, same cost for the most part, I have ruled Soundsmith out just based on time, I know Andy turns around in a day, but have read a lot about both so I figured I would ask the question to see where people lean more often.  I do already have an ebony housing, just want to get a cartridge that punches way above its weight.

If there is something I should look at outside the DL-103 I would be open to hear about it.

Just for the record this cartridge will be going on a SOTA Sapphire VI with an Audiomods series 6 tonearm and I have a McIntosh MP100 going to a tube rolled Schiit Freya+ driving by two Odyssey Kismet monoblocks and Martin Logan speakers.  
128x128justinrphillips
chakster's avatar
chakster
6,144 posts
 
Instead of constant rebuild of one cheap cartridge, designed for radio broadcast in the ’60s, it’s better to buy 3 more different cartridges made in the '80s that already have high-end cantilever and advanced stylus profile.

User replaceable stylus is huge benefit, this is what we call usability, you don't need a re-tipper to buy JICO SAS stylus replacement, they made those super advanced stylus for many vintage MM and the stylus available from their shop. 

For GRACE owners new styli availabe from SoundSmith here. He's got many options from $200 to $500. Basically all you need is a cartridge body. His F9 compatible with F12 and F14 too. I prefer genuine styli, they are hard to find, here is mine (NOS).  

I really don't know why people believe that MC cartridge is better than MM (especially equally priced MM vs. MC) ? 


hdm
1,062 posts
 
"Instead of constant rebuild of one cheap cartridge, designed for radio broadcast in the '60s, it's better to buy 3 more different cartridges that already have high-end cantilever and advanced stylus profile."

Let's see: at $560 divided by 3 that's $185 a piece for cartridges with a boron cantilever and microridge stylus. 

I'll have three of those too! We'll call it the new math/new cartridge/audiophile combo. 


elliottbnewcombjr
5,461 posts
 
So, you haven't even heard the thingy. Have you heard a Denon DL-103 on a friends system? 
Any MC on your system? I hadn't, had to make a choice based on research and advice.

1st you said Rock, then Jazz and Rock. 

My instinct: get the DL-103 going with advanced stylus shape on aluminum, for 'not too much' money, use/hear it, keep it as your base and compare future considerations to it.

I talked to Steve at VAS when I had the same idea as you: buy one broke, fix it, save money. He gave me specific advice when I found opportunities, usually involving potential complications ... I decided to get new.

My first MC is AT33PTG/II (check stock of anything these covid days)

https://hifiheaven.net/shop/Audio-Technica-AT33PTG-2-Dual-Moving-Coil-MC-Cartridge?language=en&c...

to my surprise, in addition to sounding great on my mostly Jazz, it can rock! Santana, War, Rare Earth ... and electronic stuff like Eurythmics, Blue Nile. Slide, banjos: Dicky Betts, Rising Appalachia, Larkin Poe! Violins: check. Piano: check. Stand-Up Bass: check! Drums: check.

Next, my friend gave me a NOS Goldring Eroica LX. 

https://www.goldring.co.uk/goldring-eroica-lx-cartridge.html#tab2

I have it on my 2nd arm, so I can compare to the AT within seconds. Less separation (can be beneficial), the special Gyger II stylus shape is rare, sounds great.
justinrphillips's avatar
justinrphillips OP
48 posts
 
So, you haven't even heard the thingy. Have you heard a Denon DL-103 on a friends system?
Any MC on your system? I hadn't, had to make a choice based on research and advice.

1st you said Rock, then Jazz and Rock.

My instinct: get the DL-103 going with advanced stylus shape on aluminum, for 'not too much' money, use/hear it, keep it as your base and compare future considerations to it.

I talked to Steve at VAS when I had the same idea as you: buy one broke, fix it, save money. He gave me specific advice when I found opportunities, usually involving potential complications ... I decided to get new.

My first MC is AT33PTG/II (check stock of anything these covid days)

https://hifiheaven.net/shop/Audio-Technica-AT33PTG-2-Dual-Moving-Coil-MC-Cartridge?language=en&c...

to my surprise, in addition to sounding great on my mostly Jazz, it can rock! Santana, War, Rare Earth ... and electronic stuff like Eurythmics, Blue Nile. Slide, banjos: Dicky Betts, Rising Appalachia, Larkin Poe! Violins: check. Piano: check. Stand-Up Bass: check! Drums: check.

Next, my friend gave me a NOS Goldring Eroica LX.

https://www.goldring.co.uk/goldring-eroica-lx-cartridge.html#tab2

I have it on my 2nd arm, so I can compare to the AT within seconds. Less separation (can be beneficial), the special Gyger II stylus shape is rare,
sounds great

So you have called out a few things and given me a lot to think about.  I have never heard a Denon 103, and for that matter I have never heard a MC on my system.  Just to set the stage I currently have a Sumiko Moonstone I am running and want to step up to an MC.  I have a limited budget and looking for something that will match the money I spent in a TT and Tonearm but I have to start somewhere and I want to try an MC.  So I need a base but I would like to find a base that gives a lot for the money.  There are a lot of people pointing to audio technica and I am starting to think it may be a good place to jump in before I start buying like crazy.  I still will have the 103 and the ebony housing that I can upgrade after I get used to something. 

On Music I am 80% rock and 20% jazz but the jazz collection is crowing every day! 
chakster's avatar
chakster
6,144 posts
 
Let’s see: at $560 divided by 3 that’s $185 a piece for cartridges with a boron cantilever and microridge stylus.

I’ll have three of those too! We’ll call it the new math/new cartridge/audiophile combo.

You forgot to add another $300 for a cartridge itself prior to the cost of refurbishing service. Some people charge much more for 103 mod, the total with cart itself can be near $1k. Look at the prices for Zu DL103 or Anna Mighty Sound service etc.

Boron is not mandatory for a perfect sound, Beryllium is better. There are great MM cartridges available with Boron, Beryllium cantilevers, Audio-Technica line of MM cartridges (old and new) for example. Some of them available for something like $300-700. The AT20SLa is wonderful cartridge. There are so many great cartridges.

I have mentioned Grace (cartridge body) and NEW styli from SoundSmith for those who can insure themselves.

When I bought my JICO SAS (Boron/MicroRidge) for Technics 205 series it was $350 for the stylus, now they increased the prices. Another model for JICO Boron compatible with Garrott Brothers dynamic coil cartridges (and Shure cartridges too), but Garrott available new for AU$ 690 ( which is $500 USD). This is a legendary cartridge.

Sony XL-50 MM is an excellent cartridge with Boron Pipe cantilever, I bought a few and I was shocked. JICO styli available for this model too. The original is superb.

So many cheap discoveries are in Raul's MM thread, for some of them prices are not increased much over the years. 
More to discover