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Questioning the need for a DAC

Friends,
I have a modified Oppo 103 that was a huge step up from my $2K Consonance tube CD player.  I also have a Jolida FX Tube DAC, maybe the II version, which I have had for many years.  I ran the Oppo directly into my system (I have a Don Sachs tube preamp and various amps, tube and SS, and Spatial Audio Hologram M4 Turbo S speakers) and then through the Jolida.  I honestly didn't hear a difference.  Some months later,  I demo'd a Schiit Gungnir and did the same comparison.  I really couldn't discern an audible difference with the Schiit in or out of the system.  I will admit that I sent the Schiit back for a refund after only 30 hours or so of burn-in so maybe 100 hours of burn-in might have lead to a different outcome.  A boatload of audiophiles rave about the sonic improvement with the pricey DAC's in their systems, no question about it.  With my ears, not so much.  

A "cheap and cheerful" audiophile friend of mine, who doesn't listen to much digitally-reproduced music, posed an interesting question.   If one invests in a modern quality CD player (i.e., like the Oppo 103 or 105, which make the Stereophile list of "Class A" products or many others between $1K-$5K), why is there the expectation that one needs a separate DAC to improve the sound of the DAC?   It is not trivial question.  As a matter of fact, I called Oppo while I was auditioning the Schiit DAC, nonplussed, asking why I wasn't hearing some significant improvement with the addition of an external DAC of the caliber of the Gungnir.  In response, the Oppo rep suggested, quite casually, that maybe the internal DAC in the modestly-priced Oppo 103 was quite good.  Indeed, because that is what my 63-year old ears told me.

I'd be keen to hear feedback from others who ponder the same question.   As I age, I am aware of the desire of sellers of many audio products to strike a deal with me that frankly might benefit them more financially than I  benefit sonically.  Cheers, Mark 

  
whitestix
williewonka
3,075 posts
 
Spencer...
Was I wrong to conclude that the USB implementation of the V-Link192 is superior to the that of the Bofrost/Gungnir? Yes, wrong conclusion. The proper conclusion is that the V-Link 192 & coax cable allows the DAC to receive better/quieter signal vs. the noisy USB output of your noisy computer.

OK - so after reading your last post - here’s how I see it...
  1. the V-link USB interface is processing the very same signal as the Bifrost’s USB interface
  2. Somehow, with the V-link in the mix, the Bifrost sounds significantly better
  3. From what you have said this is more due to the ability for the V-link to "clean up" the digital signal, as opposed to the quality of the USB interface employed in each component.
  4. OK, I can see how that is probably the more significant cause for improvement - but perhaps not the only one :-)
In my defence, I guess my conclusion may have been tainted by the fact that I had previously installed the SCHIIT USB Upgrade board which improved SQ somewhat, so I assumed the V-links’s USB circuit alone was providing the benefit.

FYI, in my system I use a dual lead USB cable - one lead carries only the signal and the other lead carries only the power and they are joined at the end of the cable that plugs into the DAC (or V-link). I have also implemented a separate, very stable power supply in order to eliminate the USB power related issues.

However, the difference the V-link made was also easily noticed even when using a standard USB cable that provides power from the computer.

So when the original poster stated the Gungnir did not provide too much of an improvement I figured I’d post my findings. which I believe still stand ...

  • To get the very best out of the Gungnir (or Bifrost), you have to bypass its USB port

Regards...

sbank's avatar
sbank
3,379 posts
 
@williewonka That's all very interesting and insightful. I also tried a dual-headed USB from computer to DAC and it did help on its own to decrease noise from the computer to a small degree. Glad to hear you are using an upgraded LPS on the computer.

I am not doubting the benefit you hear from the Vlink, but my conclusion is that "To get the very best out of the Gungnir (or Bifrost), you have to" feed it from a good single purpose source component. Then you don't need to bypass its USB port. I would assert that Vlink would provide little improvement between my microRendu and Gungnir  Bring it over sometime and we can test it out. Cheers,
Spencer
williewonka
3,075 posts
 
Spencer - where do you live ? I'll be right over :-)

Anywhere near Toronto, Canada?

Kidding aside - given the opportunity, I'm always willing to  get together with other Audio enthusiasts to "compare notes"

There are so many different things to try and time prevents us from trying all of them - that's why Audiogon is the perfect place to share information and approaches taken by its members

Good chatting with you


whitestix OP
716 posts
 
I did a A/B test with the CIA DAC/power supply vs. straight in from the Oppo (it was just twist of the selector knob on the preamp) and honestly I didn't find any noticeable difference in sound in a 100+ comparisons with lots of different music.  It is what it is.  

auxinput
2,920 posts
 
I'm not saying there is no difference between CIA DAC and Oppo, but there is a point where the quality of the interconnect (as well as power cord, resolution of the preamp/amp, etc.) becomes a limiting factor.  I have experienced comparing two DACS with, for example, an old Harmonic Tech interconnect.  I could not hear any difference between the two.  However, when using a self-constructed OCC copper solid-core braided interconnect, I could definitely hear that one DAC was highly superior.  In this case, the Harmonic Tech was limiting the resolution from the DAC source.
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