2. speakers
  3. 1240748267

"Frightening" or "Relaxing" sound quality?

What do I mean by that?
Not that I wish to start a new controversy --- knowing some of the usual contributors, it may not be entirely avoidable, so let’s see what gives.

Following some of the threads on the –ultimate- ‘phase-coherent’, 'time-coherent' or yet better, both, 1st order up to steep slopes, an so on, cross-over opinions, I have these notions. So let me explain.

One quite well known ‘maverick’ (done some picking on some other well known reviewer, posting it on his site...), somewhere he states: a good speaker must have the ability 'to frighten you' --- his words, and I can see/hear what he means, at least I think so.

Some other dealer in Wilson’s marvellous products (he's around my place), tells me he can only listen for about ½ hour than he is 'exhausted' --- i.e. too intense to do any longer listening…

Nobody is talking about ‘listening fatigue’ actually, it is more an emotional fatigue, as far as I get it.

Now me, I go to a life orchestra listening and emerge pretty well ‘up-lifted’, never had any fatigue (maybe my bottom, when it got a bit too lengthy) never mind emotional fatigue! Gimme Mahler, Stravinsky, Mussorgsky, heavy (classical) metal, whow --- upliftment. Never occur to me run away, get uneasy, GET FRIGHTENED!

I clearly get ‘emotional fatigue’ listening to some types of speakers!
What were they?
I think they had one thing in common: They all where, in some way, VERY realistic, but they also had something else in common, --- they did not, as it seems, stick too well to a reasonably flat amplitude response… ah ha.

What this design regimen seems to produce during listening to keep on making you jump? Apparently always something rather unexpected in happening! Now we do also know what makes us (as humans) ‘jump’: it is some unexpected ‘something’ coming ‘out of the bush’ a snapping branch, some sort of VERY REAL sound, that does not quite go along with the general set of the acoustic environment.

Now take some ‘benign, dumb’ kind of speaker, it has so little in REALISTIC sound to offer, it just can’t frighten you. You (your instinct, subconscious) just don’t ‘buy’ into it.
Now take a VERY realistic sound-producer (the ones that can make you jump) and mess with the amplitude response, what you are getting is this on the edge of your seat reaction. The VERY opposite of what a lot of music has as its intention. (Not like AV ‘Apocalypse now’ kind of chopper going to attack you from any old angle, top, behind, etc.)

Lastly, has this something to do with why lots of folks perhaps shy away from these sort of designs?
I have listened to my share and I shy away, because as REAL everything seems to be in the reproduction, it keeps me in a state of inner tension, apprehension --- even listening to some Mozart Chamber music, as there is ALWAYS something very REAL, but somehow unsettling going on.

It might just explain why some of these designs don’t ‘cut the mustard’ and not survive in the long run. Unless, and open to opinion, that we are (most of us anyway) so messed up and transistor-radio-sound-corrupted that we seem ‘unworthy of these ‘superior’ audio-designs.
I honestly don’t think so, but you may have it otherwise, as they say YMMV.

I thought it is of value to bring this up, since it does not ever seem to be part of any of the more ‘technical’ discussions ---- the human ‘fright/flight’ element in ignoring proper FLAT amplitude response in favour of minimal insertion losses, or proper impedance compensation, notch filtering, et al, just so to obtain this form of stressful realism.

It might be also something to do with age, a much younger listener (in my experience) likes to be stirred up, and emotionally knocked all over the place ---- listening to Baroque music like bungee jumping?!
Maybe.
It be interesting to hear if it is just my form of ‘over-sensitiveness’ that brings forth this subject.
Best,
Axel
axelwahl
axelwahl OP
788 posts
 
Hi all,
I'm pleased we've giving up fighting this 'issue' -- very happy, I say.

For some perspective I might mention my system used --- can't really ask my designer man, too busy dreaming up 'bleeding edge' stuff.

So here goes:
ML 390S, ML 326S with phono-modules, Fidelity Research XF-1 type M, PassLabs X350.5, Burmester 961 Mk3, SME-10 with V arm and Ortofon Windfeld cart. Cables are an assortment of Straight-Wire (Serenade RCA), home-brew (XLR), and vdH Silver Hybrid.

In all fairness a 961 just can't do 'scale' neither my smallish listening room ~ 30m^2. Quite open it is though to other areas. I do have pretty good 'room lock' which helps.

I think the one other MOST important item, other than phase/time is just some sizeable membrane area to get some 'SCALE'.
Hard to get carried away (good or bad) without SCALE, what say you?
Only if e.g. a singer starts to appear "life size" can it get frightening, goose-bumpy kind of stuff. A smaller system has a much harder time to fool your imagination - my experience this far, even if like a Kharma 3.2.2 or ~ Avalon Indra, too small I guess. As nice and clean and, and, as they sound. Some smaller Vandy got close --- alas a 'tripping' dancer as soon as it gets too busy.

Thank you for sharing,
Axel
PS: I'll try to find that: "Thin Red Line soundtrack" Track 3 so I can see what gives :-)
mapman's avatar
mapman
22,500 posts
 
"I think the one other MOST important item, other than phase/time is just some sizeable membrane area to get some 'SCALE'. "

Good point.

This is another area where the unique radiation pattern of a Walsh driver, like those used in the OHMs over the years, starting with the F and A, have a distinct advantage in terms of delivering music on a large scale from a modest sized driver.

I.e., there is a mush larger effective radiation area in play with a Walsh driver than a similar diameter conventional driver.

They are also omnidirectional and largely phase coherent. A nice combo in the context of this particular discussion!
johnk's avatar
johnk
1,976 posts
 
Bass pressures and wide dynamics can make you jump. But loudspeakers or your system shouldnt beat you up allowing one to only listen for awhile. Your not just full of music your fatigued by problems with design,system synergy,or posible hearing damage. Proper systems will alow one to listen for most all day without feeling like youve had enough. Relaxing to me sounds like limited or deviated responce.Frightening would suggest large SPL dynamic range but these system should still be listenable long term if of proper design and care with synergy. I prefer dynamics much SPL while drivers are at ease. If tranducers driven to near its max you get fatigue. This shows improper match for listener or improper design of system or loudspeakers.
mrtennis
3,295 posts
 
why would one react the same way to something that is real, e.g., live music and something that is not real, i.e., the sound of a stereo system.

i think we are getting carried away with this frightening stuff. listening to recorded music is listening to a facsimile--an illusion. unless you really get carried away, an illusion isn't frightening.

live music may or may not frighten you. i think you almost have to will yourself to be frightened. i've never experienced fear in a concert hall, nor am i aware of such a reaction on the part of anyone who has attended concerts.

oh well, the placebo effect is alive and well, and the power of suggestion can be very strong.

don't confuse the startle effect with fear.
axelwahl OP
788 posts
 
Hi Johnk
you say:
>>> Proper systems will allow one to listen for most all day without feeling like you’ve had enough. <<<

This incidentally was one of my points earlier on, when I quoted a dealer saying, that 1/2 hour leaves him mostly emotionally exhausted... (he is a Wilson dealer, still is).
He found this to be quite normal I thought.

Now speaking for myself I love to listen for VERY long times. Getting emotionally exhausted is NOT what I'm looking for!

In fact it was the background of this enquiry to find out what quality of sound it is, that gets you exhausted = lots and lots of little starts (= frights?), rather than more relaxed or at ease.
I should concede, that even a speaker and front-end that does most everything very well, can get too much after some number of hours (even your butt will tell you it's enough, ha, ha).

Next:
>>> I prefer dynamics much SPL while drivers are at ease <<<
The key here is "at-ease". If anything in the system gets ill-at-ease i.e. strained, it can be felt and it creates unease.
Obvious amounts of distortion are just that, but there can be more subtle things at work --- and a constant moving in and out of phase and time would just be such a thing. 'Bad' phasing that I thought to hear once from a VERY pricy interconnect is quite something to behold, it sort of warps listening space, very objectionable at first --- then it seems your brain adjusts to it and its not such a sure thing anymore. But if it is 'wrong', your brain has to work a lot more to make an adjustment, constantly.

An example comes to mind, when you try to have a conversation in a rather echoic room, but also in an anechoic room. Both are stressful even though you will adjust after a while.

Lastly this brings up the issue: How much can we get used to a 'wrong' system?!
If we do, we then would have a problem listening to a 'right' one?!
There is some support for this, in that only, little step by little step, can we adjust from this position, rather than by a big jump.
Now if I imagine, (sorry to use poor Mr. Wilson once more) to put a MAXX in place of my 961 in my listening room ---- it sure as hell would freak me out! And that's not by only looking at it --- which of course would help.

So much for now.
Thanks,
Axel
More to discover