What do I mean by that? Not that I wish to start a new controversy --- knowing some of the usual contributors, it may not be entirely avoidable, so let’s see what gives.
Following some of the threads on the –ultimate- ‘phase-coherent’, 'time-coherent' or yet better, both, 1st order up to steep slopes, an so on, cross-over opinions, I have these notions. So let me explain.
One quite well known ‘maverick’ (done some picking on some other well known reviewer, posting it on his site...), somewhere he states: a good speaker must have the ability 'to frighten you' --- his words, and I can see/hear what he means, at least I think so.
Some other dealer in Wilson’s marvellous products (he's around my place), tells me he can only listen for about ½ hour than he is 'exhausted' --- i.e. too intense to do any longer listening…
Nobody is talking about ‘listening fatigue’ actually, it is more an emotional fatigue, as far as I get it.
Now me, I go to a life orchestra listening and emerge pretty well ‘up-lifted’, never had any fatigue (maybe my bottom, when it got a bit too lengthy) never mind emotional fatigue! Gimme Mahler, Stravinsky, Mussorgsky, heavy (classical) metal, whow --- upliftment. Never occur to me run away, get uneasy, GET FRIGHTENED!
I clearly get ‘emotional fatigue’ listening to some types of speakers! What were they? I think they had one thing in common: They all where, in some way, VERY realistic, but they also had something else in common, --- they did not, as it seems, stick too well to a reasonably flat amplitude response… ah ha.
What this design regimen seems to produce during listening to keep on making you jump? Apparently always something rather unexpected in happening! Now we do also know what makes us (as humans) ‘jump’: it is some unexpected ‘something’ coming ‘out of the bush’ a snapping branch, some sort of VERY REAL sound, that does not quite go along with the general set of the acoustic environment.
Now take some ‘benign, dumb’ kind of speaker, it has so little in REALISTIC sound to offer, it just can’t frighten you. You (your instinct, subconscious) just don’t ‘buy’ into it. Now take a VERY realistic sound-producer (the ones that can make you jump) and mess with the amplitude response, what you are getting is this on the edge of your seat reaction. The VERY opposite of what a lot of music has as its intention. (Not like AV ‘Apocalypse now’ kind of chopper going to attack you from any old angle, top, behind, etc.)
Lastly, has this something to do with why lots of folks perhaps shy away from these sort of designs? I have listened to my share and I shy away, because as REAL everything seems to be in the reproduction, it keeps me in a state of inner tension, apprehension --- even listening to some Mozart Chamber music, as there is ALWAYS something very REAL, but somehow unsettling going on.
It might just explain why some of these designs don’t ‘cut the mustard’ and not survive in the long run. Unless, and open to opinion, that we are (most of us anyway) so messed up and transistor-radio-sound-corrupted that we seem ‘unworthy of these ‘superior’ audio-designs. I honestly don’t think so, but you may have it otherwise, as they say YMMV.
I thought it is of value to bring this up, since it does not ever seem to be part of any of the more ‘technical’ discussions ---- the human ‘fright/flight’ element in ignoring proper FLAT amplitude response in favour of minimal insertion losses, or proper impedance compensation, notch filtering, et al, just so to obtain this form of stressful realism.
It might be also something to do with age, a much younger listener (in my experience) likes to be stirred up, and emotionally knocked all over the place ---- listening to Baroque music like bungee jumping?! Maybe. It be interesting to hear if it is just my form of ‘over-sensitiveness’ that brings forth this subject. Best, Axel
Hi, looks like break-time, pop-corn and drinks. To hell with all that quality (of sound) stuff.
Lets' all beat up Mr. T, he is intransigent... and needs it sterilized ------- so WHAT, I ask?
Grinding in all his logical/rational thing and being rather illogical going about it, how funny, how human. Behold, that's a nice person, his not perfect. Don't be so nasty with him, goodness me.
I guess there are more sterilized Hi-Fi Corp. sounds out there then this dang Hi-End stuff. So the majority wins, in the real world, --- it's democratic :-)
Greetings, Axel PS: I'm not sarcastic and I must thank Mr. T for contributing his opinion(s) --- it's what this here is all about. Thanks you.
LOL (((: Shouldn't it be stereolized? But then no, we are already. So sterilized it is, you're right Map. But as Mr T says, it doesn't matter, as long as you like it.
Somehow I was under the impression from your prior posts that you were content with a portable boom box for a system because you had correctly deducted that all systems were imperfect anyhow so it didn't matter?
Or was it that systems that were imperfect must be sterilized?
"I am NOMAD. That which is imperfect must be steriziled!
Sterilize! Sterilize!"
I feel so much better now knowing you actually have what seems to be a pretty nice sounding setup!
As you know it is still imperfect however and unfortunately will still have to be sterilized!
"stating an opinion that is unimportant, like other opinions for the purpose of conversation is ok." ROFLMAO. TVAD, we have a true jester here, lets sow some more bells to his cap..... Like all jesters, he's right of course: `tis but small talk we're having.....LOL......where's the buffet and the drinks???
you guys been busy kicking your cans about. Well, and so why not --- feels more close to ‘frightening’ than ‘relaxing’ quality for sure.
Now to that “semantics” bit:
i.e. “The study or science of meaning in language…”
OK, is somebody saying he doesn't understand the discourse, it’s meaning in language? No problem, ask a QUESTION! ---- do not state a deconstructive opinion, as it will not answer, but rather just create more confusion.
Also: “the meaning or the interpretation of a word, sentence, or other language form connotation, definition, denotation, exegetics, explanation, explication, exposition, glossology, interpretation, semiology, semiotics, significs, symbiology, symbolism”
Hey, Mister! You sure want to burden our friendly exchange with all of THAT?!?
And lastly for all those that are familiar with Gottlieb Frege: (there are some fans of his out there, I know :-)
“For those in the logical tradition of semantics, modern semantics begins with Frege. In 'On Sense and Reference' Frege asked a deceptively simple question: how is it that a statement of the form 'a = b' can be informative, whereas a statement of the form 'a = a', being a truth of logic, can be known a priori?”
Right, I guess we might reconsider to keep that for some other thread? ---- Hell, and that was again an opinion! Can’t have that now, can’t we?!
Best regards, Axel PS: We might manage to get back to our friendly exchange of 'notions of import' (opinions?) Let's see...
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ear to ear speaker cables, soundstring and aural thrills gold interconnects
ps audio power plant, nirvana audio isolation transformer, enacom speaker filter, enacom ac filter, enacom interconnect filters, bob young line filter furniture foam and sound boosters as anti resonant devices
room treatment room tunes, and eggcrate mattresses on walls.
i haven't broken my own rules. sating an opinion that is unimportant, like other opinions for the purpose of conversation is ok.
you have a bone to pick with me. however, i can't argue with your analysis. what's interesting is your purpose for selecting my statement about "good stereo systems".
it's also interesting that you occasionally regurgitate some of my posts. again, while not disputing the facts, i am curious as to the reason for this.
it's just talk. a lot of things are said without any ddeep meaning. one would have to not speak all the time because much of what is said is that of opinion. i'm not asking anyone to accept what i say as fact.
indeed, many of the threads would be vacuums if it weren't for opinions. it's just small talk. it is part of life.
there is knowledge, fact and opinion. there is very little knowledge, some facts and a lot of opinion.
good try tvad.
what is said is not always of great significance or importance.
The thing about a full symphony is that it is emotionally and intellectually demanding. I don't want to be in that state all day. I always start the music with some exquisite ambient music I got from a pro. Then comes voice, or small ensemble. If I am in the mood, and have the time, I might put on a classic.
All of the above is natural, and pleasing. If I didn't have a wife, or teenage son, the music would play all day.
a good stereo system puts you to sleep, while a bad one frightens you. who wants to be frightened ? perhaps a masochist. does anyone belong to o-c anonymous ?
Semantics are important in science and engineering but alone fall way short when it comes to accurately describing the nature of what one hears. Semantics of spoken language might be capable of relating enough to describe a general type of sound, but not the fine details that make most of the different between one good playback system and another. The translation from ears to language is a lossy one.
you are the man, - go for the sexy and scary. I guess you have a point, and who would want to argue :-).
I have to admit that I myself follow the path of 'tweaks' in search of higher attainment of 'quality' of sound also. But as soon as it slips of that narrow ledge between 'right' and 'wrong' I've no issue to do some back-tracking also.
I currently busy 'trying' to get some more 'energy storage' out of my cross-over. The most advanced 'tweak' as yet. I have mentioned the 'measurement situation' in some earlier posts and how experiment always precedes technical explanation (science...) and the value of facts, and how facts seldom tell the hole truth (since we seldom if EVER seem to have ALL the facts...)
I mention this, because I had made a mistake in switching one cap incorrectly, quite major i.e. a 220uF in place of a 47uF. So instead of having 220uF + 47uF I wound up with 47uF + 47uF (parallel). The cleaner the treble got (some more fixes, resistors) the more one could tell something to be wrong. I found my error and fixed it, so far so good. Now we went back to PSPICE and modelled the error to see the effect --------- if we wouldn't have know if was a wrong value, no way to pick it up in each and every one of the three graphs. So much for measurements, beware! (The caps where part of a mid-range RCL).
Greetings, Axel PS: That faulty XO just ticked me off, (like a girl with a BAD habit...)
My mentioning of Decartes has nothing to do with philosophy per se, but with the underlying premisses or a point of view, from wich someone looks at what he percieves to be real. In that sense, if we know it or not, we are all "philosophers".
Hi Axel, If I had the choice, I'd always opt for a "scary" stereo. Life is too short to fall asleep over it or rather why be happy with the mediocre?? Even if you cannot afford what all the gurus are raving about, there are enough tricks and tweeks to make your stuff sing--if you have the patience, the passion and the ear for it.
i don't think philosophy has anything to do with the subject. i detect a tad of obsessiveness with the words "frightening" and "relaxing".
You are right, I guess I meant semantics and not philosophy. Nevermind, it just struck me, based on your many comments questioning the deeper meaning of audiophile semantics, that you would probably draw a strong distinction between "an African or European Swallow" in a discussion about "unladen air velocity" ;-)
Sorry I should have put your whole front of sentence i.e. >>> **i don't think** philosophy has anything to do with the subject <<< It does make some difference I guess :-) Cheers Axel PS: Excuse the previous entries typo, but you still won't have my applause :-)
Hi Mrtennis you say: >>> philosophy has anything to do with the subject <<< Music is about LIFE, so it happens to be with Philosophy! That just by the by, therefore I of course you would not get my applause...
I've been using some similes here, which must have escaped your attention? And I have only done that, since it is NOTHING MEASURABLE we are talking about. Uless you have some fright or relexatation 'Richter scale' handy that I have not yet heard about. If so, let's have it please. Now, if you feel, that if it can't be measured, it is not a subject for enquiry, than so be it. I'm NOT going to open THAT can, it's too old and what's in there stinks by now --- big time.
Hi Detlof I think you are right there at it. In fact when I read your lines - I get goose bumps. That is what I would call GOOD FRIGHT. Now you are in the midst of it, and something 'breaks' that transcendence, I had also called it daydream like -- then what? Momentary emotional upset, disturbance, a start (I have not called it fright, but that's what it actually is when it happens). Now take a system that is somehow good enough to take you there, but then starts to 'trip and stumble';;;; Some speaker/sytems in my experience do that, and then I might just rather be with the little more 'average dancer' then the one that get me lost in his performance and keeps making me unsettled by some 'out of choreography' moves. I have used that dancer example again if you forgive me, it seemed to have struck a chord in some earlier mentioning. So, that 'average dancer' it that little 'lesser' system that makes fewer 'noticable mistakes' but is less 'brilliant'. Where as the other system can 'blow you way' momentarily, but keeps on upsetting you... (Like a sexy woman with a bad habit :-)
You see, in my experience systems do not get just better and better. The better they get, the more pronounced they bring forth even smaller mistakes, make them more noticable so to speak.
I hope this is not getting too poetic, yet even in poesy you could have the same effect. Some brilliant lines, then a sudden jolt, something missing the mark.
So you just might like the more 'relaxing' less taxing one (I think I do), or the more 'brilliant' one that keeps on putting you off?
Greetings, Axel PS: nothing is perfect, not even the better...
Hi Mrtennis, seems you're still caught in Decartes' illusion.(((: Enjoy........By the way, hope you'll get goosebumps one day, maybe even a slight scare in a live classical concert. It sort of opens up the mind, even if you think it is already wide enough. Cheers and happy listening, Detlof (:
"if you can be so taken with an illusion , more power to you. especially with orchestral music, the diffference between real and recorded is great indeed. it may be mind over matter, again"
if you can be so taken with an illusion , more power to you. especially with orchestral music, the diffference between real and recorded is great indeed. it may be mind over matter, again.
I like the term " Startle effect " ... This is a good description. Now, when you are literally startled at the accuracy along WITH life like dynamics, and without distortion, he he he ... well in my opinion you are most of the way there. Where exactly is that you ask ? Where we are all trying to go of course ... Sonic Nirvana BUT, the system must also excel at low level resolution as well. This is where it all meets the road: Good dynamic speakers with few flaws, and ENOUGH power to get you "there" ...
"why would one react the same way to something that is real, e.g., live music and something that is not real, i.e., the sound of a stereo system." This sentence could be no further off the mark. Case in point: You sit and listen to your stereo *in the dark*, the music, say the Violin and Piano Concerto of the pubescent Mendelsohn draws you deeply into its melodic texture, not intellectually, which oculd be a pleasure as well, but emotionally. You sort of become one with the dialogue between piano and violin. (Argerich and Kremer in that case)Suddenly the massed strings set in, the recording as well as your rig at that very moment are so good, that it sounds as if the players, though somewhat reduced in size, were here with you in the room. The illusion is so perfect, that for a moment, your conscious mind anyway somewhat unfocused, in a tiny fraction of a split second you don't know where you are and what is at. It is a flash of being startled, fright if you will, adrenaline flows for sure, that gets you back into your place in time and space. Could it be that, Axel, what you are talking about? If so, I would say, that a rig must be really excellent, if it can sometimes scare you. Food for thought for me, don't know about you of course... ( The Concerto I mentioned was recorded by DGG on digital by the way and I have it on vinyl no less. So one would expect the worst of both worlds. Not so in this case . Just goes to show, that there are always exceptions to ones predilections and exceptions to the rules you like to believe in. What a great hobby we have!
Hi Mrtennis you say: >>> don't confuse the startle effect with fear.<<<
I guess you should not have the meaning of these words confused, and that's very good. But the question is a bit more delicate actually. What makes the difference between the one and the other?
If I am totally immersed into the music and some one 'creeps' up on me and thereby 'intrudes' into my 'Meta-space' (this self created imagined one, eyes closed usually) it can freak the hell out of me, right?
So what's in a different state of awareness, a start at best, is now a full blown FRIGHT, I have jumped when this happened! It's like some invasion into this day-dream like listening state. So I guess we are much more vulnerable to some 'wrong' stuff if we 'open up'.
Food for thought, I say. Axel PS: This better NOT happen to you listening to 'elevator' music --- and even more so while in an elevator :-)
Hi Johnk you say: >>> Proper systems will allow one to listen for most all day without feeling like you’ve had enough. <<<
This incidentally was one of my points earlier on, when I quoted a dealer saying, that 1/2 hour leaves him mostly emotionally exhausted... (he is a Wilson dealer, still is). He found this to be quite normal I thought.
Now speaking for myself I love to listen for VERY long times. Getting emotionally exhausted is NOT what I'm looking for!
In fact it was the background of this enquiry to find out what quality of sound it is, that gets you exhausted = lots and lots of little starts (= frights?), rather than more relaxed or at ease. I should concede, that even a speaker and front-end that does most everything very well, can get too much after some number of hours (even your butt will tell you it's enough, ha, ha).
Next: >>> I prefer dynamics much SPL while drivers are at ease <<< The key here is "at-ease". If anything in the system gets ill-at-ease i.e. strained, it can be felt and it creates unease. Obvious amounts of distortion are just that, but there can be more subtle things at work --- and a constant moving in and out of phase and time would just be such a thing. 'Bad' phasing that I thought to hear once from a VERY pricy interconnect is quite something to behold, it sort of warps listening space, very objectionable at first --- then it seems your brain adjusts to it and its not such a sure thing anymore. But if it is 'wrong', your brain has to work a lot more to make an adjustment, constantly.
An example comes to mind, when you try to have a conversation in a rather echoic room, but also in an anechoic room. Both are stressful even though you will adjust after a while.
Lastly this brings up the issue: How much can we get used to a 'wrong' system?! If we do, we then would have a problem listening to a 'right' one?! There is some support for this, in that only, little step by little step, can we adjust from this position, rather than by a big jump. Now if I imagine, (sorry to use poor Mr. Wilson once more) to put a MAXX in place of my 961 in my listening room ---- it sure as hell would freak me out! And that's not by only looking at it --- which of course would help.
why would one react the same way to something that is real, e.g., live music and something that is not real, i.e., the sound of a stereo system.
i think we are getting carried away with this frightening stuff. listening to recorded music is listening to a facsimile--an illusion. unless you really get carried away, an illusion isn't frightening.
live music may or may not frighten you. i think you almost have to will yourself to be frightened. i've never experienced fear in a concert hall, nor am i aware of such a reaction on the part of anyone who has attended concerts.
oh well, the placebo effect is alive and well, and the power of suggestion can be very strong.
Bass pressures and wide dynamics can make you jump. But loudspeakers or your system shouldnt beat you up allowing one to only listen for awhile. Your not just full of music your fatigued by problems with design,system synergy,or posible hearing damage. Proper systems will alow one to listen for most all day without feeling like youve had enough. Relaxing to me sounds like limited or deviated responce.Frightening would suggest large SPL dynamic range but these system should still be listenable long term if of proper design and care with synergy. I prefer dynamics much SPL while drivers are at ease. If tranducers driven to near its max you get fatigue. This shows improper match for listener or improper design of system or loudspeakers.
"I think the one other MOST important item, other than phase/time is just some sizeable membrane area to get some 'SCALE'. "
Good point.
This is another area where the unique radiation pattern of a Walsh driver, like those used in the OHMs over the years, starting with the F and A, have a distinct advantage in terms of delivering music on a large scale from a modest sized driver.
I.e., there is a mush larger effective radiation area in play with a Walsh driver than a similar diameter conventional driver.
They are also omnidirectional and largely phase coherent. A nice combo in the context of this particular discussion!
Hi all, I'm pleased we've giving up fighting this 'issue' -- very happy, I say.
For some perspective I might mention my system used --- can't really ask my designer man, too busy dreaming up 'bleeding edge' stuff.
So here goes: ML 390S, ML 326S with phono-modules, Fidelity Research XF-1 type M, PassLabs X350.5, Burmester 961 Mk3, SME-10 with V arm and Ortofon Windfeld cart. Cables are an assortment of Straight-Wire (Serenade RCA), home-brew (XLR), and vdH Silver Hybrid.
In all fairness a 961 just can't do 'scale' neither my smallish listening room ~ 30m^2. Quite open it is though to other areas. I do have pretty good 'room lock' which helps.
I think the one other MOST important item, other than phase/time is just some sizeable membrane area to get some 'SCALE'. Hard to get carried away (good or bad) without SCALE, what say you? Only if e.g. a singer starts to appear "life size" can it get frightening, goose-bumpy kind of stuff. A smaller system has a much harder time to fool your imagination - my experience this far, even if like a Kharma 3.2.2 or ~ Avalon Indra, too small I guess. As nice and clean and, and, as they sound. Some smaller Vandy got close --- alas a 'tripping' dancer as soon as it gets too busy.
Thank you for sharing, Axel PS: I'll try to find that: "Thin Red Line soundtrack" Track 3 so I can see what gives :-)
Thanks once again Atmasphere for keeping this conversation grounded in an objective test process that can be tested rather than in random subjective observations!
OK- let;s try a different tack. Track 3 of the Thin Red Line soundtrack: this is only on CD. There is an intense string passage towards the end of the track. A good system has no problem separating things, but if there are problems the strings will appear as a harsh mass.
All components in the signal chain can affect this. Not just the player, or the amp, preamp or speaker- all of them.
My point here is that without a proper reference, it can be hard to tell where an artifact is coming from. Odd-ordered harmonic distortion content in an amp or preamp can make a system that is otherwise flat frequency response sound edgy, jitter and other digital-domain errors can make the CD sound harsh or unsettling, the interaction between the speaker and amp might be incorrect (see http://www.atma-sphere.com/papers/paradigm_paper2.html for more info), and of course the speaker itself can have a variety of issues.
I do lots of shows and sometimes we get pretty good sound at them. You'd be amazed at the number of people that walk in the door and assume that it is the speaker that is responsible for that -when it takes the entire system. Sure, the speakers have to be good, and a good speaker is also revealing. That means that the amp has to be good, and a good amp is also revealing... you see where I am going with this?
I think one key to good phase/time alignment is that drivers can overcome inertia and react fast to even very subtle signal changes.
The High Emotion line mentioned by Atmasphere appears to have a significant design focus on this.
Other champs in this area that I personally have direct experience with that are affordable are certain affordable models from Triangle.
OHM Walsh speakers are pretty good in this regard also IMHO.
I'm sure there are others from what I have heard in showrooms but I am less certain of the design focus with these. PSB in the more moderate cost range and mbl and Magico in the uper echelons are two others that come to mind.
Nothing is 100% perfect. I would take more perfect 'most of the time' design. A- good- dancer- that -has- just- stumbled rationale would also be my take. Once again, pl accept my apologies.
Hi all, I see where we have gone off track. The phase/time alignment is just GREAT! The problem seems, IF IT IS LOST during replay i.e. moving in and out of it due to high SPL plus a complex signal. It is the phase/time alignment that gets the speaker close to extremely good reproduction in the first place --- BUT for how much below the pass band (and given shallow roll-off 1st order) can some of these designs maintain it?
My man tells me, the challenge is down to at least -50dB! or even better. Now if the speaker does most everything very exceptionally well, it's a bit like a good dancer that has just stumbled. If it happens repeatedly it becomes pretty uncomfortable to behold.
Saying negative things about anyone on anything does not serve me. I just don't buy the idea of time and phase alignment speakers, by design, being a 'frightening' design. Scary good? Yes ;-), but frightening the way you put it? No. That is all. My apologies if I misunderstood your stand. (BTW, I am the last person on the AGon to rant like this) But my Dunlavy's are too close to my heart and they can do no wrong. IMHO.
Agreed, Massed strings and string quartets are very tough to reproduce- analog or great digital. You do need great recordings to come even close. have some Quartetto italliano on vinyls that does pretty good job of it. Also have some emerson quartets on CDs and quality of recording varies. But some come pretty close to perfection. There are for sure some 'frightening' recordings ;-)
Axel, Yes, your speaker-man's frontend isn't bad, as you say. But it is not SOTA either. Whatever, since he listens to analogue and even seems to prefer it, I really don't know what he is talking about regarding massed strings, because I don't share his sentiments but at the same time am VERY finicky especially about the rendition of massed strings in big orchestral classical music. Perhaps you could ask him what especially sounds wrong to his ears and we could try to pinpoint the "heart of evil". Cheers, D
Hi Detlof to answer your questions the man is listens to both, digital and analogue. (and prefers analogue, as I do also) His analogue is a Transrotor Z3, with the Transfig. Orpheus (L), and a Allen Wright phono/pre-amp with a special stepped attenuator, plus pass monos, etc. CD drive with a Cullen modded PS Audio DL III. Not a bad front end I think, in answer to some other questions re. front-end quality and influence on the sound. I mean this now 101 audio, but so why not.
As for the Nilthepill take, ---- 300B comment? Blaming? All due to upstream components? not learning my lesson? I don't quite get your idea for all this negative talk. If it serves you, if it gets you relieve, then be our guest :-)
Hi Atmasphere having learned a lesson from Jeff Roland? I think you have a point not doing both. Look at Krell, I think he is trying this again, and the results are at least questionable to some folks... (include me). I do not know "M-derived crossovers" have you some more explanation on this? Also having looked at a Dunlavy XO first-order, yes? If that is correct, it beats a 4-order Revel in number of components!? This would disprove the 1st-order 'story' about minimal insertion losses, I say. (But that is just by the by) Thanks, Axel
Back to blaming the time alignment and phase alignment game again. Who is this speaker-designer-man of yours that says that? I am with Timtim for possible cause- the cross over design, the speaker quality itself and or most like the upstream components. The 300B comment proves that you don't know what you are talking about.
I thought you said you started learning and getting it and now you are back to square one.
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