Wow, lots to respond to. Let's see how well I can keep from rambling......
RE: Jitter
Furthermore, turns out I could have been partially wrong anyway. I claimed that small time audio companies wouldn't bother with "proprietary" alloys. But in the meantime I came across JPS Labs and what they call "Alumiloy". This sounds like some sort of aluminum alloy. But it's only a trademarked name. Which means not an actual patented alloy. Though it seems they are trying to patent whatever it is. Not even sure if it is an alloy. They're kinda vague on that point. I wonder, would you demand of them to know exactly what the "ultra-pure metals and other elements" were in they're design? If they refused to tell you, would you move along? Just curious.
But before I get too far into it, let me reiterate, it's not up to those of us engaged in this audio commercial endeavor. Let me try to explain as best I can.
The primary occupation of just one of the scientists we worked with is NMR. (You can Google that if you like.) And he has seen huge potential in applying what we all learned from this project to his primary occupation. In this Google age, where cross referencing the right search terms can lead you to the most interesting information, he specifically does NOT want his name mentioned anywhere near our product. Why? Because he doesn't want it popping up alongside some random search associated with his name. Let's say some other lab looks him up. They see that he's doing some research that could drastically alter the efficiency of their work. They also see him associated with us. Whats not to stop them from posing as audiophiles, buying samples from us and trying to figure out what he is up to? Sound far fetched? NOT Nearly!! Having that happen would kind of make for a bad day, probably even longer. We have several of just these types of scenarios to deal with.
So it begs the question, why mention this sort of pedigree at all, if you won't come clean on WHO it is? Well, you can't ever please everybody. But you can please some people. And for some people, just knowing that we have THAT level of intellect that contributed to this product is enough. Others won't (and haven't) cared at all. All that matters to them is that it works as described. And there will be some who will yell, "Liars!!" because we won't mention exactly who we speak of. And you know what? That's fine. Move along. Nothing to see here. Sound harsh? Like I said, you can't please everybody. And we've found that the ones who demand that you tell them everything about your stuff aren't really interested in buying it. They just want the satisfaction of having gotten the information out of you. Mostly so that they can then argue with you about how it won't work as described. (Without ever hearing it, of course.) And some, more sinister types, want to steal from you. And yes, we've already encountered that as well.
Warning! From here on out I'm going to wax philosophical on this subject.
SO!!! What exactly do we use and how do we use it?
Oh, a little silver, a little copper. Ten nines pure, of course! Oh, and also single crystal. Of course the exact recipe is proprietary!
Does that make you want to run out and try it? Nah! Everyone is doing that. What makes you DIFFERENT?
OH! That would be the algorithm that we use to determine the exact content of all the materials.
Does THAT make you want to run out and try it?
Absolutely not! I want to know the algorithm first.
Really? And what will that tell you about how it sounds?
See, NONE of this information will tell you how it sounds.
Here are but a couple reasons why.
1) Some materials have earned a reputation for a certain "Sound". Not always true. But trying to reverse years of strongly held belief is near impossible.
2) One company touts wicked fast propagation times. Another's claim to fame is their ultra low impedance.
How do these relate to each other? They don't. Practically apples and oranges. Does it tell you anything about how they sound? Nope.
But what it will do is provide all sorts of fodder for anyone who loves to argue to ceaselessly to engage in just that sort of behavior.
This why the only thing important to us is that WHAT you know is that we design from a time domain perspective. (This is all over our website.) HOW we do that is not important.
Trying to explain HOW will fly over the heads of those who are not versed in science. It will give opportunity to steal ideas from those who are. How is either one beneficial to us?
Because it will generate interest!!
Highly doubt it.
Let's get back to the WHO we had on our design team.....
Let's say that none other than Nikola Tesla was alive and well and that HE was on our team. Would that impress you enough to listen to the cables? For a tiny few it might. But probably only those who know who he was very well. But along with that there would surely be a dozen Edison types who would want to argue with us endlessly. (If you are not familiar with the Tesla/Edison history, look it up. It is very fascinating!)
And it STILL won't tell you how the cables sound!
We like to think we have the most accurate cables on earth. And we state that at times. But you have to take it on faith that what we say is true until you actually hear them.
We also were fortunate enough to arrive at this design due to the ridiculously fortunate input from some of the worlds elite scientists. But you are going to have to take it on faith that what we say is true. What difference does it make WHO it was? Until you actually hear the cables, you are still taking it on faith that it mattered in the first place. It DID matter, to us! It shaped the way we all approached each new problem. We found that there is a difference in the way some scientists approach problems. Kind of like the difference between Michael Jordan and your average college player. Sure, there is a difference in talent level. But more importantly, there is a difference in the way they approach the game. The same holds true for scientists. That was the biggest contribution from some on our team. It was the occasions where it was said, "Here, look at it THIS way." that made all the difference.
So, final word on exactly WHO was on our design team. If anyone ever reaches the same level as the most elite that we worked with, we'll go ahead and tell you the whole roster. How will we know anyone has reached that level? Simple. We may just be reading about your timely vacation to Sweden. :)
In conclusion (to this TOO long post), I'm going to relate a meaningful example to try and sum up how we see ourselves fitting into this industry, our intention to keep some things secret, and how we feel about internet forums in general.
A couple years ago I came across an very long thread at Headfi that was all about the Sonicweld Diverter, a USB to SPDIF converter. And I trudged through all 21 pages of it.
It was early on that contributors became indignant about how on earth a simple USB-SPDIF converter would/could cost so much. It wasn't long before there were calls for the designer, Josh Heiner, to weigh in on the discussion. What transpired after that was both illuminating and frustrating. There was the gamut of people commenting. Some were grateful for Josh's time and contribution. Some were absolutely indignant that he did not lay out in extreme detail everything inside his product. The discussion started to turn nasty and it wasn't long before Josh bowed out.
A few things became abundantly obvious in that thread.
The most notable to me was that there seem to be a LOT of faceless people out there who just love to argue. And mixed into that crowd, it became obvious, were people who would try to leverage and manipulate for the sole purpose of gaining information that would allow them to replicate his ideas. And there were a few that were simply the jealous types. "Why make the construction so elaborate?" "You don't need to make it that expensive!!"
Basically, the lesson learned was that not only are you NOT going to please everybody. You're probably not even going to please most people.
But even with all that, the most notable thing about that whole thread, to me, was the way in which Josh both held his ground and did it with dignity.
That's what we aspire to be like with CH Acoustic on any sort of forums.
It seems inevitable that we occasionally join in the discussions, for the sake of the curious.
That thread on the Diverter was memorable to me. I wasn't in need of one. But much later we had a customer who was doing extensive trials with USB-SPDIF converters. He wasn't aware of the Diverter and had pretty much given up on the idea. At first it was awkward to approach him and make a recommendation on an item we had never heard ourselves, especially one so expensive. But that's how impressed I was with who the designer was, based solely on his engagement in that hostile thread. By our customers own admission, everything we had claimed prior to that had turned out true. So he went ahead and purchased a Diverter. And, Holy Cow!, that thing is good! If we had need of one, you can bet we'd be getting one for ourselves. And if it weren't for the fact that having metal encasing our cables is a performance detriment, we'd probably be having Josh make cosmetic ends for us, even if it did increase the price drastically.
But here's the point of all of this. While there were a LOT of hostility towards Josh for not revealing every tittle of information that people wanted. My personal response was one of admiration and respect. And it turned out well for me. And the last time I checked, Josh is still selling a lot of Diverters.
So I think there is something to be said about sticking to your guns. Keeping the things you want to keep secret, secret. And not worrying about what others will think. There is no way we are ever going to please everybody. But we'll please enough.
We've already learned that once customers get a hold of our cables, they absolutely love them. And since word of mouth from very happy customers is still the greatest advertising, we'll stick with that.
So we're not going to answer every question. We're going to keep certain information private, sometimes stubbornly. And we're not going to worry about the results of that. If our philosophy resonates with you, that's awesome! We are pretty sure you are going to love our product.
RE: Jitter
One contributes to the other and are synonymous in audio parlance, right?For general discussion, I suppose so. From a design perspective, very different.
The construction of that sentence is a little awkward and threw me off I guess.I do that all the time. There is often a disconnect between my brain and my syntax.
This is incorrect. If you have any experience with patents, you would realize that common materials can be patented within the context of a specific application.The operative word in my sentence there was "meaningful". And we do have experience with patents. A LOT of experience. But, in the interest of avoiding argument, let's chalk this up as personal opinion. We don't think anything other than the most conductive materials are "meaningful" in designing a perfectly transparent audio cable. Those metals are known. Playing around with "special" alloys doesn't appeal to us. In our research, we tested all sorts of different alloys. None of them returned results nearly as good as what science had already proven worked best long ago.
Furthermore, turns out I could have been partially wrong anyway. I claimed that small time audio companies wouldn't bother with "proprietary" alloys. But in the meantime I came across JPS Labs and what they call "Alumiloy". This sounds like some sort of aluminum alloy. But it's only a trademarked name. Which means not an actual patented alloy. Though it seems they are trying to patent whatever it is. Not even sure if it is an alloy. They're kinda vague on that point. I wonder, would you demand of them to know exactly what the "ultra-pure metals and other elements" were in they're design? If they refused to tell you, would you move along? Just curious.
This makes little sense. Knowing the who's and why's would invigorate me and many audiophiles and contribute significantly to the cause.Honestly, I doubt it. (incidentally, Agear, don't read the rest of this as a directly personal response. It's more of a general response for anyone who ever comes across this thread. Thanks!)
But before I get too far into it, let me reiterate, it's not up to those of us engaged in this audio commercial endeavor. Let me try to explain as best I can.
The primary occupation of just one of the scientists we worked with is NMR. (You can Google that if you like.) And he has seen huge potential in applying what we all learned from this project to his primary occupation. In this Google age, where cross referencing the right search terms can lead you to the most interesting information, he specifically does NOT want his name mentioned anywhere near our product. Why? Because he doesn't want it popping up alongside some random search associated with his name. Let's say some other lab looks him up. They see that he's doing some research that could drastically alter the efficiency of their work. They also see him associated with us. Whats not to stop them from posing as audiophiles, buying samples from us and trying to figure out what he is up to? Sound far fetched? NOT Nearly!! Having that happen would kind of make for a bad day, probably even longer. We have several of just these types of scenarios to deal with.
So it begs the question, why mention this sort of pedigree at all, if you won't come clean on WHO it is? Well, you can't ever please everybody. But you can please some people. And for some people, just knowing that we have THAT level of intellect that contributed to this product is enough. Others won't (and haven't) cared at all. All that matters to them is that it works as described. And there will be some who will yell, "Liars!!" because we won't mention exactly who we speak of. And you know what? That's fine. Move along. Nothing to see here. Sound harsh? Like I said, you can't please everybody. And we've found that the ones who demand that you tell them everything about your stuff aren't really interested in buying it. They just want the satisfaction of having gotten the information out of you. Mostly so that they can then argue with you about how it won't work as described. (Without ever hearing it, of course.) And some, more sinister types, want to steal from you. And yes, we've already encountered that as well.
Warning! From here on out I'm going to wax philosophical on this subject.
SO!!! What exactly do we use and how do we use it?
Oh, a little silver, a little copper. Ten nines pure, of course! Oh, and also single crystal. Of course the exact recipe is proprietary!
Does that make you want to run out and try it? Nah! Everyone is doing that. What makes you DIFFERENT?
OH! That would be the algorithm that we use to determine the exact content of all the materials.
Does THAT make you want to run out and try it?
Absolutely not! I want to know the algorithm first.
Really? And what will that tell you about how it sounds?
See, NONE of this information will tell you how it sounds.
Here are but a couple reasons why.
1) Some materials have earned a reputation for a certain "Sound". Not always true. But trying to reverse years of strongly held belief is near impossible.
2) One company touts wicked fast propagation times. Another's claim to fame is their ultra low impedance.
How do these relate to each other? They don't. Practically apples and oranges. Does it tell you anything about how they sound? Nope.
But what it will do is provide all sorts of fodder for anyone who loves to argue to ceaselessly to engage in just that sort of behavior.
This why the only thing important to us is that WHAT you know is that we design from a time domain perspective. (This is all over our website.) HOW we do that is not important.
Trying to explain HOW will fly over the heads of those who are not versed in science. It will give opportunity to steal ideas from those who are. How is either one beneficial to us?
Because it will generate interest!!
Highly doubt it.
Let's get back to the WHO we had on our design team.....
Let's say that none other than Nikola Tesla was alive and well and that HE was on our team. Would that impress you enough to listen to the cables? For a tiny few it might. But probably only those who know who he was very well. But along with that there would surely be a dozen Edison types who would want to argue with us endlessly. (If you are not familiar with the Tesla/Edison history, look it up. It is very fascinating!)
And it STILL won't tell you how the cables sound!
We like to think we have the most accurate cables on earth. And we state that at times. But you have to take it on faith that what we say is true until you actually hear them.
We also were fortunate enough to arrive at this design due to the ridiculously fortunate input from some of the worlds elite scientists. But you are going to have to take it on faith that what we say is true. What difference does it make WHO it was? Until you actually hear the cables, you are still taking it on faith that it mattered in the first place. It DID matter, to us! It shaped the way we all approached each new problem. We found that there is a difference in the way some scientists approach problems. Kind of like the difference between Michael Jordan and your average college player. Sure, there is a difference in talent level. But more importantly, there is a difference in the way they approach the game. The same holds true for scientists. That was the biggest contribution from some on our team. It was the occasions where it was said, "Here, look at it THIS way." that made all the difference.
So, final word on exactly WHO was on our design team. If anyone ever reaches the same level as the most elite that we worked with, we'll go ahead and tell you the whole roster. How will we know anyone has reached that level? Simple. We may just be reading about your timely vacation to Sweden. :)
In conclusion (to this TOO long post), I'm going to relate a meaningful example to try and sum up how we see ourselves fitting into this industry, our intention to keep some things secret, and how we feel about internet forums in general.
A couple years ago I came across an very long thread at Headfi that was all about the Sonicweld Diverter, a USB to SPDIF converter. And I trudged through all 21 pages of it.
It was early on that contributors became indignant about how on earth a simple USB-SPDIF converter would/could cost so much. It wasn't long before there were calls for the designer, Josh Heiner, to weigh in on the discussion. What transpired after that was both illuminating and frustrating. There was the gamut of people commenting. Some were grateful for Josh's time and contribution. Some were absolutely indignant that he did not lay out in extreme detail everything inside his product. The discussion started to turn nasty and it wasn't long before Josh bowed out.
A few things became abundantly obvious in that thread.
The most notable to me was that there seem to be a LOT of faceless people out there who just love to argue. And mixed into that crowd, it became obvious, were people who would try to leverage and manipulate for the sole purpose of gaining information that would allow them to replicate his ideas. And there were a few that were simply the jealous types. "Why make the construction so elaborate?" "You don't need to make it that expensive!!"
Basically, the lesson learned was that not only are you NOT going to please everybody. You're probably not even going to please most people.
But even with all that, the most notable thing about that whole thread, to me, was the way in which Josh both held his ground and did it with dignity.
That's what we aspire to be like with CH Acoustic on any sort of forums.
It seems inevitable that we occasionally join in the discussions, for the sake of the curious.
That thread on the Diverter was memorable to me. I wasn't in need of one. But much later we had a customer who was doing extensive trials with USB-SPDIF converters. He wasn't aware of the Diverter and had pretty much given up on the idea. At first it was awkward to approach him and make a recommendation on an item we had never heard ourselves, especially one so expensive. But that's how impressed I was with who the designer was, based solely on his engagement in that hostile thread. By our customers own admission, everything we had claimed prior to that had turned out true. So he went ahead and purchased a Diverter. And, Holy Cow!, that thing is good! If we had need of one, you can bet we'd be getting one for ourselves. And if it weren't for the fact that having metal encasing our cables is a performance detriment, we'd probably be having Josh make cosmetic ends for us, even if it did increase the price drastically.
But here's the point of all of this. While there were a LOT of hostility towards Josh for not revealing every tittle of information that people wanted. My personal response was one of admiration and respect. And it turned out well for me. And the last time I checked, Josh is still selling a lot of Diverters.
So I think there is something to be said about sticking to your guns. Keeping the things you want to keep secret, secret. And not worrying about what others will think. There is no way we are ever going to please everybody. But we'll please enough.
We've already learned that once customers get a hold of our cables, they absolutely love them. And since word of mouth from very happy customers is still the greatest advertising, we'll stick with that.
So we're not going to answer every question. We're going to keep certain information private, sometimes stubbornly. And we're not going to worry about the results of that. If our philosophy resonates with you, that's awesome! We are pretty sure you are going to love our product.