This isn't a response as such to the original question but this thread like so many others ha evolved somewhat in an interesting direction and i'd just like to add something.
I bought a SME 20/2 last year at the end of the run of the Mark 2 which came with the charcoal coloured platter. I bought it without an arm as i had a SME IV arm that i'd been using on a SME Model 10 that i was going to use on the 20 and put another arm on the 10 which i'd kept for a second system. The cartridge was an Ortofon Cadenza Black. Over 6 months or so, as much as i liked the Model 20 i felt there was something holding it back but i couldn't put my finger on it. The Cadenza Black just wasn't giving me the excitement that an Ortofon Jubilee was when that was on the same arm but on the Model 10 turntable.
A new Ortofon AS212S tonearm came up for auction on Ebay so on a whim i bought it and ended up with it at half retail. Mounted on the Model 20 with the Cadenza Black hanging off the end it is a stunning combination with more detail, wider and deeper soundstage and all the usual audiophile cliches, but most of all is so much fun. I've never doubted the qualities of the IV arm but there is something in the synergy between cartridge and tonearm that makes all the difference.
Now if SME would put their skills to building a cartridge.............:>) |
Sorry I meant to direct that last post @ Dover :-) |
Mahalo Syntax.
Do you know when they changed the bearing in the IV?
I purchased mine about 4 years ago.
Aloha! |
Agree with Syntax, SME will be around forever to service this ( their main business is military equipment ), and with the new power supply/thicker chassis etc this is the bargain of the SME line. In many ways the SME IV is a better arm now that it has the same bearings as the V, but no damping/VTA whilst playing mechanisms that muddy the sound. I recall that Bob Graham used an SME 30 for a long time so I would be confidant the Graham is a good match. |
Many mahalos Syntax.
You have summed up my impressions from countless hours of research and questions on various fora.
While everyone has a different ear, perspective, system, environment musical taste etc etc...I believe a consensus can be arrived at after distilling all the data available on the internet....and I believe you have summed it up very well.
I am still listening to others' stories and advise but as each day passes I must admit I am moving slowly but surely towards the 20/3 with Phantom arm.
Not quite there yet.......
Just curious what your impressions are of direct drive units and the TW Raven which seems to have a loyal following on this forum.
Aloha! |
ll these discussions about the "Performance" of a Turntable - the internal Qualities - will hardly end in a final Solution. The final solution exists, but when the Listener has different "Priorities" (-> Fun, Life, Action, Bass...) well...it depends. Money isn't the Solution, because there are lots outs there which are very expensive and at the end of day they won't tell you any new for 1/3 turntables.
Garrard
The right ones for Listeners who want Pace, Rythm, Timing, Bass and don't care about coloration or Precision in Reproduction, or in a full Swing Performance. The rattling idler moves so much energy into the platter and spindle that you will hear in every Record the Subway below Kingsway Hall.
Oracle
One of those designs which solved a lot of Problems (suspension) and does sound right. A classic. But based on its Chassis and light Platter it can't produce the lower octaves from Organ and other extreme earth quakes. But from overall Performance very well done.
SME
In a way the most serious ones of the 3. Their "Problem" when we can call it that way, is their own SME Arm. It is limiting the abilities from that table. Good as the SME V is, compared to others in Soundstaging, "Gestalt", right size of Instruments and distance, it is 2. rate. And very limited in the choice of cartridge alignment.
I would use that table with a Phantom II Arm or a DaVinci.
Then it will tell the listener something really new. |
Robob, "Not much to resonate there". What about the suspension itself? By definition, it resonates at a certain frequency. |
A friend has the top SOTA vacuum table with SME 5. He has the same attitude toward resonances as you Robob. Compared to my Basis 2001/Graham or Linn/Jelco I find it a little dead or lifeless. Interestingly, he has been trying to sell it in favor of his other table, a Technics 1200, which has neither vacuum nor clamping. My Basis has clamping, the Linn does not, my VPIs do. It all depends on the table to my ear. |
Cipherjuris - The mat material on the 20/3 platter is the same as that of the 20/2 platter - just a different color. It is called Isodamp. The manufacturer now only supplies it in the charcoal color to SME. |
Mahalo Robert.
"So folks are saying to put a non SME arm on a SME table? Check to see if they are off their meds."
I guess the comments come from those who think the combo is dark and using another arm counters that.
Just some say that others not at all.
I guess that's what makes our hobby so interesting....and frustrating too.
Thanks for the input and well wishes. Aloha! |
"The reviews and comments out there lead me to believe I will be better off using a non SME arm on the 20/3"
So folks are saying to put a non SME arm on a SME table? Check to see if they are off their meds.
As for the 301, yes it must be fashion and follow the leader. We discounted idler drive 40 years ago or more. And direct drive as well.
"I think most of the "lifeless" comments come from folks who have tables that "contribute" to the sound. "
Yep, removing resonances is why some folks don't like clamps. Too accurate for them.
Discloser, I own a SME 309 on a Sota Star with a suspension, clamp and vacuum system. Not much to resonate there.
Hope your turntable/arm hunt goes well,
Robert |
Mahalo Cipherjuris.
SP10 eh........interesting.
Are there many mods needed to get one of these singing?
Did Albert Porter do it all or just the plinth?
I have just about talked myself out of the idler drive solution.
The rebuilt 301 ends up in 20/3 price territory with a decent plinth and PS.
I'm wondering why the whole DD/idler drive thing is going through a renaissance right now.
Is it a fashion thing?
Do they all add something or other and we just decide on the flavor of the year?
After all these "new gems" have been around for years. Interesting stuff.
The new 20/3 also has a way thicker top plate and heavier platter. The review was very positive....but aren't they all! |
Both excellent tables, to be sure. I owned a heavily modified Oracle Delphi MK IV and still own an SME 20/2 with a Graham Phantom I.
The Oracle was great for its day when everything was right, but it had trouble holding the perfect setup for very long.
The SME with Graham is truly a set it and forget it system and is very easy to set up. I have never found it lifeless. It is very stable and has minimal resonances to add to what is on the record. I think most of the "lifeless" comments come from folks who have tables that "contribute" to the sound. Such contribution usually gives the table a euphonic sound that is quite pleasant. But it is not what is on the LP.
I suspect that the new 20/3 will be noticeably better than the 20/2. The new mat material is probably a signicant improvement and I think SME improved the power supply as well. Have not seen the HiFi News reviews.
Not to detract from the SME 20/2 with Graham Phantom, but I have one of Albert Porter's Technics SP 10 MK IIIs with completely restored and upgraded electronics and his plinth with an SME 312S arm. Best vinyl I have ever heard by a huge margin, it is actually close to true master tape sound on well-recorded, well mastered and well-pressed LPs. The 20/2 sound is similar but quite a bit less, which leads me to believe that it is not adding much if anything that is not on the LP.
Hope this helps.
Ed |
