I know we've been over this Q hundreds of X's over the past 20 years here on audion, You can find dozen of topics dealing with this Q <which is the ,,,,most important component...>> well time for yet 1 more topic dealing with this,, perhaps unanswered, un-resolved issue. I'm bringing up the old hachet due to my recent experience acutally hearinga FR in my system. Let me tell you, there is not even 1 traditional/conventioanl/xover design <The Boxed Type>> in the world that could convince me , there is something that will beat out FR (caveat, FR requires some sort of high sens =sensitivity, tweeter) in the Boxy world of speakers. That is to say, FR + Compression Horn is the future of 21st Century high fidelity. One lab has already brought us these ~~~SHF~~~ aka SuperHighFidelity single drivers. The code word here is ~~SHF~~~ which can not never be employed when describing xover/trad/conventioanl style aka The Box designs. db level under 91 are _<<IN-EFFICIENT>> , = dysfunctional, out dated, old school , = Dinasaurs. For amps, I only consider tube amps (PP and SET) as ~~SHF~~~ I can not include ss amps in this topic. IMHO all well made tube amps sound very close, a kt88 in brand X will sound close to brand Y. So amplification takes a distant 2nd place in critical component. No need to break the bank buying amp A vs a lower priced kt88 amp B CD players, nearly all tube DAC's , tube cdp-ers sound close. No need to braek the bank over X vs Y. My Jadis DAC is only miniscule gain over the Shanling, the Shanling only a miniscule gain over the Cayin CD17. Now as for best source , phonograph is the ideal playback medium vs cds. I have some LP's now , but my main collection are classical cds, most not on LP version. Cables , I did note some gains employing silver/copper wiring throughout my entire system including inside the Defy. Tweak worthy. New Mundorf caps in all componets, tweak worthy. Yet the main central component remaisn the speakers. Here is where the entire audio resolution either rises to Nirvana or falls to <<distortion/muddy waters,/pollution/anti-fidelity voicing issues. Your system's fidelity is ultimately dependent on what speaker you have chosen to employ. Forget all you've learned over the years, The new mantra is <,The speaker is key component> All else is just extra tweaks/nuances. To sum up, a ~~SHF~~ driver will match even the top of line Wilson weighing in at hundreds of lbs priced $$$$$$$ overa single FR driver. FR beats out any/all xover box design speakers. Mostly due to that key specification ~~db level~~~ which is everything in speaker design and thus in resolution/fidelity.
It is easy to understand that any relatively good piece of gear can be replaced by any other relatively better piece of gear, be it a dac or amplifier or speakers...
And this replacement is called an upgrade...
It is easy to understand that if any piece of gear can be replaced by any other, psychoacoustic law, vibrations/resonance controls, noise floor control, are not piece of gear waiting for improvement but question that must be adressed...
Then the most important for most of us is not the source or the speakers urge to upgrade, it is the psychoacoutical necessary control of the room, of the electrical grid of the house and of the vibrations plaguing speakers...
There is NO miraculous component.... Only relatively better one for most of us.... But the general rule in my experience is that any upgrade is lesser increase in S.Q. than controls of the room most of the times if not always...
The only exception perhaps is to change 500 bucks speakers for example to a 15,000 bucks pair.... And even this is not always true....
My 50 vintage bucks speakers sound like SOME not so good 15,000 bucks one thanks to my room control....
I dont need any upgrade why?
Am i deaf?
No...
I studied elementary acoustic....
Try it....
Then perpetual arguing about branded name gear is deceptive and never adress the essential....
with the typical level of critical examination. Dumpster fire.
On the contrary, I think some pretty good arguments for the negative have been raised. It‘s just that they haven’t been addressed in any intelligent fashion. Come up with some ideas of your own instead of sniping.
There is no perfect gear for all people and all need and relatively to all other pieces of gear which could be potentially linked to it....
Engineering art is trade-off...
Selling perfection is an illusion.... Or a deception...
The most important part of a system is not the visible gear at all, it is the invisible psychoacoustical law, among other basic elementary facts whithout which there is no optimal working audio system at ANY price...
It is quite a different sales tactic, though. Let me bash what I am trying to sell in the forums and then try to tell people looking at the ad how wonderful they sound. How could you expect that to work? What it tells me if I were a potential buyer (I really have no interest in them) is that you are completely dishonest. I would never consider buying something from someone that is that deceitful.
Still not 1 taker on my Seas Thors, which just so happen to be the King of all speaker designs in the low db range. Hows that for demand in ya old designs.
How is this any sort of validation in any mind other than yours? You have been on here for weeks bashing them, you have the crossovers screwed to the back of the speakers and you can't figure out why they aren't selling? Let me give you a clue, it ain't because the design of the speaker has passive crossovers. They quite honestly look like a shop project done by someone that never attended shop class. Looking at what was done gives no confidence that the person that did the mods had any clue what they were doing and likely screwed up the voicing of the design. And other than you, who honestly believes a $2000 kit is the top of the mountain in passive loudspeaker design? I have heard many single driver full range speakers and you can keep them. As mentioned above, they create as many problems as they avoid.
@mozartfan Why haven’t you tried to address a single issue I have raised? Try to justify your absurd comparison of amplifiers to tubes. Age doesn‘t necessarily confer wisdom. On the contrary it can petrify thought processes unless one is open to sane reasoning..Stop your self indulgent, pompous never ending rambling, and provide some real substance to your claims. In less than 100 words, preferably.
I would call it, "Full range drivers, the single most critical component, even though they have many flaws, and they try to fix a problem that may not even exist while creating other problems."
The Defy7 is not SET it is, push pull KT88 design.
And what exactly is so holy about this amplifier, pray tell? Your vast knowledge almost beggars belief. Is it better than a pair of 12AT7 tubes? Please start talking sense.
Equating an amplifier with tubes ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The 12AT7 was a chinese clone of the Jadis 200 preamp, That is , the $$$$$ Jadis was only a nuance superior to the $900 chinese clone. Hardly a nuance. My Defy7 , will not be trumped by any future amplifer design. Amplifiers have no further breakthrough developments,. Whereas in speakers The breakthrough has happened and few have any real interest. They wish to remain stuck back in yesteryears 1970’s, 1960’s xoverpolluted, bad coughing speakers, The Wet Blanket sounding speakers. Some members here know exactly what i am talking about. I am predicting the future, some here just don’t want to see nor admit this progress in now taking place, here today. You don’t want to see nor recognize the new developments in speaker design, you are missing out on the most important developments in all audiophile cosmos.
The first question I will ask is why you are so insistent that a full range driver is the ultimate in reproduction.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The single 6.5 Diatone FR just blew away the world calss xover speaker, the Seas Thors, Immediaetly knew audiophiles all have the wrong speakers in their systems, And they have no clue about that wrongness. Thats why i am pugnacious in this quest to enlighten the audiophiles to stop considering xover box dsigns and make the FR/wide band discovery. If more folks support wide band drivers, perahps one day some lab willl find a way to produce mass market Field Coil and then we can all jump from Neodmium magnets FR to FC FR. Now wouldn't that be nice. But as longs as xover designs are being marketed as high fidelity, , resonably priced FR FR can not , will not happen. You folks are blocking the transition to a high fidelity, high sensitivity. Stop supporting dinasaurs, just let them die. Sadly my world class Thors will be going to the chop block sold as parts only. WORLD CLASS. No one has any interest. in the New Orleans area. What does that tell you.
No, just ... no. Give me a $150-$500 DAC with volume control,
And what about the source that feeds the DAC? And please don‘t tell me that all transports sound the same. A really top class transport with a cheap but serviceable DAC always trumps any expensive CD player at the same cost. If you are streaming you are paying for the quality. You can‘t recreate what you lose at the source PERIOD. And don‘t fall into the fool’s trap of equating dollars with importance.
@mozartfan I‘m sure the speakers you linked do SOME things brilliantly and are a whole lot of fun to listen to. But as to the ultimate loudspeaker, God give me strength. You love to paint yourself as a wise old sage who is passing on the benefits of superior knowledge. I can also claim to be pretty old and decrepit, and have been building and enjoying SETS and FR speakers for over 40 years. They are really rewarding, and I get a get a great deal of satisfaction from listening to them, But I am not deluded by the notion that they represent the ultimate in sound reproduction.
If you were arguing SET‘s and horns with crossovers I might take you more seriously.
I've heard a couple of Feastrix driver systems. Volti showed a single driver system with a Feastrix driver at Capital Audiofest one year. It was a pretty decent sounding system. A friend of mine has a Feastrix field coil driver that he put into an Onken cabinet. This was also a nice sounding system. My friend also had the Feastrix power supply for the driver (solid state). We tried the power supply on a Western Electric 555 compression driver system to see how the power supply compared to a Tungar tube power supply; there was no comparison, the Tungar supply smoked the solid state supply. With these kinds of systems, everything matters, including the DC power supply for the driver.
My personal favorite field coil driver is the Jensen/ERPI 13" M10 which must be used with a tweeter. This is a spectacularly good wide range driver. I particularly liked a system I heard with this driver in a open backed cabinet (i.e. open baffle) with the M10 run full range (no low-pass filter) and a tweeter crossed in around 8,000 Hz.
Most of the full/wide range systems with field coil drivers that I've heard required periodic adjustment of the voltage fed to the driver (the M10 is an exception). By periodic, I mean during the listening session. To me, this is a bit too much work.
rspyder89 posts04-26-2021 6:24pmI think the speaker is the last piece in the audio upgrade path for two reasons: - It is literally at the end of the actual signal path. -
Based on my experience and other hobbyists I respect, virtually every
relatively descent pair of speakers will rise to the occasion if you
feed them the best possible signal.
No, just ... no. Give me a $150-$500 DAC with volume control, a $2-3,000 amplifier, $20,000 speakers (of my choice), and enough money to fix most of the acoustic issues in a room. I will put that against any $5,000 speakers, I don't care what electronics you connect it to, and that goes quadruple if you don't fix the acoustic issues.
The first question I will ask is why you are so insistent that a full range driver is the ultimate in reproduction. When we look at psychoacoustics, brain operation, I don't think there is a good justification for it.
The concept of time alignment of all drivers sounds like a great idea, but somehow speakers that are not perfectly aligned still sound as good as ones that are. Why is that?
The reason is likely that the ear/brain uses a very narrow portion of the audio band, about 200-1500Hz to extract timing information. That is it. That is where all the timing information comes from. If you are aligned in that area, you have done what is needed. Even then what matters is both speakers are the same, not so much alignment.
After that, frequency response and distortion dominate, and full range dynamic drivers will always have doppler distortion worse than multi-driver systems. It is unavoidable. They also tend to have higher distortion. It is a technical solution in search of a problem while creating other problems.
So I double cked the google results on <Field Coil>> scrolled down and hit on this April 2021, Ht Off The Press Field Coil design from japanese technicians. Its long article , but will hold your interest, I just fliped through it and came across something that confirmed my hunch concerning more complex music in a FR driver, PP ~~may be~~ the better option. My hunch was validated. The golden rule of SET amplification ~~Only~~ for FR high sensitivty speakers, may need a tweak in the theory. Field Coil is not my interest, for budgetary reasons. Still , concerns my main thrust to my arguments agaisnt xover old designs. High sensitivity is the future of speaker designs. Due to the higher effectivity producing a purer higher fidelity in the musical ambience. Loud-speakers are a thing of the past, A new day is dawning.
It you xover cult fanatics that just CAN"T let it go, Not me, You guys are the ones that will not let the dinasurs DIE So I go back to my listening room after above post,,and type in on my CP, field coil speakers Try to get some idea of just what is a field coil speaker, At least some idea. So I type in field coil speaker,,and what pops up as 1st hit ,,, so its not only me who has ~~Seen the light~~~ Others too have seen this vision. This is only just the beginning, Fight it all you want, supress, repress, deny, bash and trash the new tech in FR development, Its onlya matter of time before the dinasurs get dumped for the new speaker of choice
Of course YOU can't admit nor have eyes to see this future. You guys adore worship and are slaves for life to the old traditional low efficiency distorted polluted xover dinasaur. Here is the link, I've not read it yet, Just ran here to post it. Keep on listening to your xover muffled boxes which takesa hercules to life them. I'll stay with what I know it the best and wisest choice in voicing music. Tweak Geek Since 2003, I've been around audio since mid 70's. Thats 80 yeras combined opinion, Both in complete agreement FR is the speaker of choice for this 21st Century. The xover cult will continue on another 50 years, Afterwards folks will pick up YOUR xover box at a garage sale fora few $'s. and say to his buddies **yeah, so this is what they used to listen to back then,,well its great for my background while i mess around in my garage, for $10 ain;'t so bad* https://www.tweekgeek.com/blog-tweek-geek-speek/field-coils-are-the-future/
Mozart, Let it go man! Yes there have been some significant improvements in full range drivers recently but the only real advantage is the lack of a crossover (which is significant). Must you continue to try to recruit for your "tribe"?
I think the speaker is the last piece in the audio upgrade path for two reasons:
~~~~~~~~~~~ Interesting, but no cigar, at least 2 old seasoned audiophiles in this thread have already concurred with my position. The speaker voices the electrons hz flow. Speakers determine the voice of your sysytem. Its like the voice on a human, speakers are the vocal chords in your system. I really can't stand xover designs, They are inefficient and bleed dry the other components, like a blood sucking leech. If FR designs did not exist I would not be at all interested in hifi audio.
I think the speaker is the last piece in the audio upgrade path for two reasons: - It is literally at the end of the actual signal path. - Based on my experience and other hobbyists I respect, virtually every relatively descent pair of speakers will rise to the occasion if you feed them the best possible signal.
Based on the above, my approach is to refine/upgrade the elements ahead of the speaker until I truly hit the point of diminishing marginal returns. Then it's time to upgrade the speakers.
Mute , not adding anything to the converstaion. Lets pretend the new developments in wide band single source drivers, do not exist. Lets continue in the 1970's AR/Bose/B&W speaker journey. Those who decide to switch over will be richly rewarded. I have not heard even 1 complaint concerning FR speakers, descriptions of only the highest accolades , experience gushing with shouts of joy and praise. Still not 1 taker on my Seas Thors, which just so happen to be the King of all speaker designs in the low db range. Hows that for demand in ya old designs.
Your last sentence is ridiculous and simply one person's perspective. I think a very strong case can be made that FR speakers have more weaknesses than strengths. I know of few experienced enthusiasts that havent heard good FR designs and moved on from this type for some very obvious reasons. Enough of the blathering!
Yes those olde FR drivers are legendary and have served well. Perahps as good as the newer labs models, who knows. How many audiophiles would gladly give up their xover/traditional low db speakers once they listened to a high quality wide band FR driver in their system. Tahts the point of this topic. Past 40 yaers , xover low db has been center stage , talk-of-the-town. Just look at Audiogon's speaker forum,. For every 1 topic/posting on wide band/FR, there are 1000 posts for the xover model speaker. Look at the sellers page, I've yet to see even 1 FR used driver for sale here, There are a few on ebay. Folks just do not part with their wide band driver. Hopefully this topic which has been Audiogon's #1 views topic and will most likely remain #1 for some weeks. Awareness, this is the main goal of this topic. Awakeness, awareness, there does exist another speaker other than brank x,y,z xover traditional design. You do have options to the xover low efficiency speaker. I just feel xover have become so dominate a design, weve been brainwashed, its like propaganda now. Full Range drivers exist and are a reality, FR high efficency drivers represent a dangerous threat to xover traditional speakers sales. Wide band/FR is the speaker choice for the 21st century discerning audiophile.
I certainly won‘t give up my Coral and Jordan Watts full range drivers, but to suggest that they represent the ultimate in sound reproduction is sheer folly.
100 % agree , we make speakers with wide range ( no full range) driver cover 300-8000 Hz no any crossover elements , with bass and highs helper drivers
One could argue that the most important range to cover with a single driver is from about 200Hz to 1500Hz. This is the frequency range where we use timing information for location. Outside that frequency range, flat frequency response and consistent L/R frequency response would be more important
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ This is where the critcal fq's are voiced in our music. Especially for classical music, and also voice in jazz recordings. Accuracy in voice reproduction is so important for jazz fans. Bass? Just about any speaker i've herad has some degree of acceptable bass. Highs, , there are so many choices now in high quality tweeters. Truth is , music in the lowest and highest fq range, there is not much there. Not enough to be so concerned. Wide band /FR do have this miniscle limitation in the lowest, highest fq range. Not a big deal. Just as long as a speaker gets the critcal 200-2k fq range right, I'm a very happy camper.
Many can’t afford the luxury of a binary approach offered by a main speaker system like yours, and will instead have to make settlement with a solution that more pragmatically dictates the speakers, in conjunction with their interaction with the acoustics, as the (by far) most coloring part of the chain.
~~~~~~~~~~~ Ahh yes, the financing of our audio dreams. Some of us here have a limited budget. Thus wish to make their purchase decisions as their *best possible*, of all the countless choices in the wide vast speaker world. IMean if I had the cash, this *Field Coil* single driver looks quite interesting vs the magnet system. But since its so far out my budget, I must exclude that design from any considertion. I have no idea how the field coil even works, but will discuss with Richard Gray when i see him tomorrow, well this morning at his shop. He knows about these things. Richard has been a great mentor, and a source for accurate understanding about speaker designs based on his wide range of experience of all things audio. Considering the prices of xover design speakers next to the more competitive priced new wide band engineered speakers , is yet another factor which may decide the future of speaker sales. The cabinet for a single source driver can be constructed by just about anyone with a few common tools and a few sheets of 2x4 sanded plywood from Home Depot. A cabinet both affordable and lightweight.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ At this juncture of the topic, I would like to express my gratitude towards all the moderators here on Audiogon for allow this topic to continue, although I am aware i may have presented some of my ideas in a pugnacious attitude, which on another site may have qualified for * The Ban* This shows you guys are willing to continue to keep audiogon as a free fair open forum for all things of interest in this incredible wonderful hobby. By granting folks free , civil speech, you are making sure Audiogon will remain as the premiere all ~things~ audio discussion forum in the world. I know many members here , along with me applaud this generous spirit of giving members the freedom to express their ideas and thoughts.. Especially at a time in this society where **cancel culture** is gaining ground as the accepted norm. Which canceling of views as *Not acceptable* only makes this world worse off. Kindly maozartfan
To quote someone: The 10 most important components of a hifi system. 1 thru 8 - The Speakers 9. The room 10. Everything else.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 100% in agreement with your *source* , which may well be Medialies, and hows that for a handle *Media-lies*. There are many excellent comments from Douglas fleschler dietch2 larryi I hope to address all your excellent imput based on a long valuable experience in speaker issues, problems, if not ~Failures~ To acheieve the desired results. And your thoughts are written with kind consideration, respectful and not argumentative. Our interest in all things audio should be expressed openly, courteous ,which will allow new understandings in these obscure, showdowy matters of speaker designs.
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
