I do not consider the Walker to be a suspended design per se. |
It's not really over-analyzing. Moving the table, or allowing it to move, is exactly the principal behind a suspension. The idea is to sink the vibrations into the suspension, which I believe are eventually transfered into heat from the friction in the springs/air/fluid. The high mass solution ultimately results in the same product, heat. In either method it is possible to over-damp, under-damp, or damp just right. Sounds like Goldie Locks, but in simplest terms that's the idea.
I'm guessing los blah-mos since I get the impression turntable design is a masculine task. And besides, las blah-mas just doesn't sound right. |
"Getting pace or prat or liveness by moving the table beneath the cartridge is adding something to the music that's not in the grooves".....If this is actually true,then the particular table mfgr who designs "that" particular suspension deserves very few sales of that product!!!...Just like some arms,or cartridges,or any device has inferior or superior implementations,so DO the suspension designs as well.I doubt there is much movement in the Walker,Continuum,Rockport,the top Basis designs(Debut/Work of Art series),Blue Peal,Avid Acutus,SME's etc!All suspended designs!!ALL considered world class!!I cannot for the life of me,see how there is any platter/plinth movement beneath a cartridge,on "these" products,as a LP is spinning(has anyone actually measured this,or is it conjecture,and assumption?).....I've tried the cone route,and defeated the "superb" suspension of my SOTA COSMOS!The difference in performance(especially in bass power)was not even close.This was using a custom wall shelf,riveted into three 2x6 beams.We then tried the VPI TNT without a suspension,on a massive 300 lb floor stand,and compared it to an added air suspension.After that,we tried my friend's SOTA COSMOS,on an SRA rack,mounted on a concrete floor,with a Symposium Ultra platform beneath.Defeated the suspension,then with the "NEW" suspension employed on the series IV.Not close!!Once again,the suspension design was FAR superior in virtually every meaningful way!Each individual consumer should make their own choice,and really I have no stock holdings in any design,so my thoughts are simply just that...my personnal experience,along with some other friends.Whatever suits you is fine.-:)
This is not to say that a non suspended design cannot sound great(anyone wanting to give me a Kuzma REF can E-mail me,and hear my shouts of joy),but some analyticl thinkers may be overanalyzing the subject a bit. -:)
Best |
Raul, how do you say "blah" in Spanish? ;-) |
Dear Keith: I think that some way or other you already have different answers to your questions so maybe I will add " more of the same ", but I will do it anyway:
one of the best suspended TT example is the SME 30 I try it and it is very well isolated from internal/external unwanted vibrations/resonances/fast energy dissipation, I like it from an " audible level isolation performance ".
Iown some heavy mass non suspended TT's, two AS and the RX-5000 from MS, its quality level performance depend on the grade level of an add-on ( by your self ) isolation and I don't mean about rack types but the footers, the ones that come with those TT's are " terrible " for say the least and till you by-pass those own footers the quality performance is not good: I could say that is a poor performance for the price of the TTs.
I try very hard looking for the right or near the right footers/isolators till I find it through Audio technica pneumatic ones, I use it directly at the metal plynth and work very good but through the time and making " a non-expert tests " ( here we have to remember that the cartridge is a very sensitive micro that take micro-vibrations/resonances/noises that our ears can't detect but not because we can't detect it means those " noises " aren't there and we have to try to leave at minimum those " micro noises " to improve the quality sound performance level on the audio system. ) like hitting the rack ( with the stylus on a LP and volume at different high levels ) or hitting with my foot the floor I find that in both AS I can hear some thump level at the speakers so I decided to try something else and after several " try and error " I find that using those same AT pneumatic isolators along a 2" tiptoe ( at top of the At ) with the tiptoe "point/end " in touch with the metal TT plynth those sounds at the speker disappear totally, so it is in this way how are running my AS TT's and yes that " move " was/is a quality improve in the TT performance.
With the RX-5000 every thing is almost " ok " with out the tiptoes. My Luxman likes with the tiptoes inn.
Well, right now I'm running one of my Technics SP-10MK2 with a very simple wood type plynth ( atached to the SP10 base chasis ) of no more than 1.5" that is real function is for I can mount the tonearm, I put the AT pneumatic isolators ( with and with out tiptoes ) directly to the plynth and I can't avoid the thump/noise at the speakers, so I change the position/place of the AT pneumatic isolators instead on the wood plynth directly to the metal SP10 chassis ( in the lower/below part of the TT and with out tiptoes ) and the " noises " disappear, now the SP-10MK2 quality level performance is no less than fabulous!!!!
All these tell me that we ( users ) have to make " our work " at home because the TT builders don't do its " job " or at least not in the best professional way.
If you read somewhere ( example ) Micro Seiki and Walker recomended an additional platform ( for improve TT isolation ) to its TTs, how is this? when we pay " big big dollars " for those turntables.
Take any manufacturer TT website and read around and you only find ( including the one from Basis ): bla, bla, bla, bla, that means only that:bla blan nothing else that prove to us that bla bla!!!!, nothing that can prove/verify in a professional/technical way ( different enginnering level tests ) the TT isolation grade level where I can " see " the different TT mechanism to avoid different kind of internal/external vibrations/resonances/noises/ on their TTs, I think that all of them ( TT builders ) are avoiding of what it is a primary own responsability!!!.
IMHO I think that it is a shame of TT builders where we pay thousands and thousands of honest/clean dollars and no one of them make its work about or at least they don't share with their customers, I wonder why?
All these means that we are paying ( in the TT cases ) for an incomplete product about that subject!!!
IMHO I think and I'm sure that all those TT builders can/could make a better " job " that what are doing on the subject and I hope that if they do it in the near future that can help to everyoneto growing up in a better way trying to obtain a better quality level performance in any audio home system.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
For what it's worth, Pierre at Mapleshade goes so far as to recommend replacing the springs on suspended tables with his brass cones - evidently another vote for non-suspended tables. |
Some high mass unsuspended tables (like mine) work great on some springy wood floors (like mine). Other high mass tables on other floors might, or might not.
A suspended table also might, or might not, work well on a springy floor. It depends on the resonance frequency of the table and the frequency of vibrations coming from the floor. There is certainly a risk of interaction though.
Like Larryi, our preference is for the black backgrounds, solid bass and full dynamics of a high mass, unsuspended table. Getting "pace" or "prat" or "liveliness" by moving the table around beneath the cartridge is adding something to the music that's not in the grooves. After all, the cutting lathe was not mounted on some springy device.
True isolation in the playback environment is complex, individual and thus difficult to achieve with any non-tuneable, off the shelf solution. There's no pat answer to this one.
|
"I'm sure if you take away any part that was designed in there will be a change"....Could not agree more!
One of my good friends,who is a very experienced hobbyist,alweays claims(humorously)that even if one was to "put a banana" on the top of a speaker,it's presence would be heard!-:).....I love that statement-:)
The only "easy answer" to this hobby is...."it's fun"!
Best. |
If one has a suspended wood floor that could cause footfall problems, then a light suspended table would not be ideal. I've seen situations where the footfall causes such tables to go into prolonged oscillation and for the tendency for skipping to be worsened by the suspension.
My own personal preference is for heavy suspended tables. Such tables may seem "dark" and lacking in dynamics to some, but, to me, the good dampening of such tables results in quiet backgrounds, honest, accurate reproduction -- the extra juice in lightly suspended tables and some non-suspended tables becomes more akin to "noise" after extended listening. For the same reason, I like good record clamps and vacuum hold-down even more. |
I'm sure if you take away any part that was designed in there will be a change. That's true of any table. Because a particular table of either design doesn't work in one situation does not invalidate the design philosophy in any way. Even within the same camp, be it suspended or not, there are some tables that will deal with a particular setup issue better than others. Same with every other component in a system. That's why there are few easy answers in this hobby. |
To me,it is not an issue of what seems correct on paper. If one is so critical as to be concerned about the minutiae of cartridge/arm issues,then being careful about what table topology you buy,is a good thing.
As to the why it "may" be a big deal.....just some thoughts,which a new table purchaser should "think about",before making a decision....From the arguements made in favor of an "effective" suspension system,on a table,the subtle sounds of "any movement" can be picked up by the finest cartridges/systems.This is indicated by not only footfalls,but the vibrations of many "real world" occurrences.A truck,airplane,or any vibration that can cause the slightest impact on the "super sensitive" vinyl replay system(in a normal home,even the general outside world's "sound" is vibrational....listen at night,not to music, and it becomes obvious...things are just much less noise/vibration sounding)....Having a concrete floor(I do too)is still not totally effective for stopping these deliterious effects.My friend has a concrete floor,but can pick up the vibrations of his elevators,and other causes in his apartment building.Noisey neighbors,furnature moving,someone wheeling in groceries etc are all present in an apartment building.If you claim to have a fine system,you are picking up the effects,whether you like it or not!One family homes are not immune either(I have one and know this to be the case).
I had a non-suspended table,on a specialty wall shelf,drilled into two by six inch beams,in my wall(dedicated room).Fine,but there was still the subtle vibrational energy coming in when a large vehicle,or plane passed by.Even the effects of my room's exhaust fan(on the roof)caused some degree of vibration,which I felt(slightly).Washing machines,vacuuming(don't laugh),furnace kicking in etc....you may not be aware of the subtle impact,but it IS there!
Of course I am not saying "these" can easily be detected,during LP play,but It makes "sense" to me,that if the vinyl set-up is SO good,to have expensive cartridges/arms/electronics etc,and "is in a quiet room",then there IS going to be a difference in the perceived sound,based on the "better" table topology!...
I say,try to read/educate oneself to the topic,consider your own system/room,and make the decision which is most logical to you!
Somehow,I cannot believe a table like the Walker would sound anywhere as good as it does(though I am sure it still would be acceptable)if the "air suspension" was omitted.
Personally,I could easily live with,and love many non suspended designs,but the suspended arguement makes the most sense to me...in a very revealing system.Some set-ups are more revealing than others,so this might not be a "big deal" to some.....I agree!
Best. |
Isolation from footfalls, isolation from airborne musical feedback, isolation from motor resonances, evacuation of cartridge resonances and good sound are all interrelated but separate issues. How the designer handles all these issues is where the magic happens. And any well thought out theory can look good on paper. As usual there's no one right way to do it. Enjoy you choice! |
I use a non-suspended Pro-ject RM10. It comes with its own highly effective isolation base. The plinth and platter are high-mass and the bearing has magnetic repulsion to minimize friction caused by the high weight of the platter. It has a very good 10" carbon fiber arm that mates well with highly compliant cartridges.
Ease of set up is one big factor why I like the non-suspended approach. My dealer moounted the cartridge and all that I had to do was level the isolation base and then level the TT itself. I was in business in just ten minutes. I'll not have to worry about springs sagging or anything bouncing around when I'm cueing the arm.
Oh yeah, my TT sounds great.
Dave |
In years past I've owned three suspended tables; two Sota Stars and a Basis 2500. The Sota suspension worked extremely well with heavy footsteps, the Basis system didn't work worth a damn. Even walking softly anywhere near the table created problems.
My next table, a mass loaded Nottingham Mentor, sat on a rack and while not as good as the Sota when it came to footfalls, was still better than the Basis.
Now I've got a very heavy Galibier Gavia sitting on a very sturdy wall shelf that I designed. Problem solved! |
I found that even rapping the equipment stand hard with my knuckles did not transmit any sound to the speakers. This is another issue that comes up often that I admit I just don't understand. My table is in my finished basement (concrete floor) and my DIY stand incorporates sandboxes, thick hardwoods, granite shelves and Stillpoints. If I wrap on a leg of the stand with the stylus down I can hear a thump through the speakers. Same thing would happen back when I had a Basis 2500/Vector tonearm. But I have to ask, "So what? Why would you do that?" I'm not in the habit of doing this while listening to LPs. And I don't know anyone else who does this. So I'm at a loss to understand why the vinyl-phile community seems to bring this up as some sort of test to prove or disprove something. Now, if you can hear your footsteps through the speakers as you walk around the room then I'd agree there is an issue. ;-) |
Thank you everyone for your response. My listening room is on the second floor of my house. The floor is of wooden floorboard on joist construction - i.e. not the most rigid. I have seen turntables with massive platters. I found that even rapping the equipment stand hard with my knuckles did not transmit any sound to the speakers. This made me wonder if I really need a suspended turntable or not ... or whether a high mass design would be enough. Or maybe a suspended high mass design.
I will go take a look at the white papers on the Basis website. |
The "only" reason I stated that one should read the Basis White papers,is because the arguements made(there)seem logical,and make the most sense to me.Of course each person makes their own buying decision.The more educational ammunition,the better. |
Hanging the table removes a lot of vibration issues from the equation. As does mass. I don't believe I've missed the point at all. I've owned suspended and non-suspended tables. Some within the same line of manufacturer: Basis Audio. I don't buy into the garbage anymore about one type being necessarily superior to the other. This is nothing more than two approaches at solving the same problem. In the end the only thing that really matters is how the music sounds to you. |
I have had both and could'nt agree more, "it ain't what you do, but the way that you do it", it's all in the implimentation. I am not sure I agree about isolation and non suspended decks, they seem to be the norm with many new tables recently. In high end examples, isolation seems to be by virtue of sheer mass, some of them are very heavy indeed. That becomes important,when you consider how wall shelves have been the traditional route of isolation for tables. I am changing from an Origin Live Resolution to TW Acustics Raven one. I am hoping it won't fall off the wall as the more expensive Raven AC, certainly would. |
A lot of this issue is what you need in your application. I have been using suspended TTs for years, but my system is in my basement. The street where I live has virtually no traffic, so I don't need suspension.
If you live in a 150 year old loft apartment with springy wood floors, than you will need suspension.
Dan is right to a degree, but seems to miss the point of why some tables are suspended.
I love the design philosophy behind the Sota TTs. They are hung rather than sprung. Hanging the table removes a lot of vibration issues from the equation.
You need to examine your room and decide which design you need.
O
o
. |
I agree with Dan, I have one of each type and both are excellent. Implementation is all important. |
Actually,you DO want to be concerned about the "type" of table you chose.
I would strongly suggest you go on the "Basis" website,and read the "white Papers".These are very well written pieces,based on good science,and logic!Also,a good means of educating one,about the advantages of a suspension on a turntable,as well as vacuum clamping(if that interests you).
At that point you can better make an educated decision,which type to chose.
Good luck. |
Don't worry about the type. With either, pay attention to the implementation. There are good and bad examples in both. |
