Actually you can use whatever tonearm except for the short "9 inch (most of them must be avoided because of the mounting distance), any "10.5 or "12 inch are perfect.
In my opinion Reed tonearms are amazing on SP-10R, I like 3p model.
And EPA-100 mk2 is definitely the best from Technics for SP-10R.
You don't have to worry about Drive + Tonearm combination as much as you have to think about Tonearm + Cartridge combo!
Again, any 10.5 inch or longer tonearms are compatible with SP-10R
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So how about an SL1000R with a
Tri-planer U12inch Arm? anyone tried or heard any of the SL1000R with better tonearms? |
I thought the air force one is 100K |
@lewm No. TechDas is under $15K. |
This thread started out being about the 10R. What’s happened is that Technics is being berated for the cosmetics of the SL1200G and for the fact that the 1200G may not (or may) be superior to some megabuck belt-drive turntables. That’s not quite fair, is it? Time will tell how the 10R and the 1000R really do compare to very expensive and/or rare vintage belt drive turntables (thinking of the Micro-Seiki). But there is every reason to believe that the 10R/1000R may tip the market on its ear, maybe excluding a few dedicated Linnies and diehard devotees of other BDs. (My neighbor bought a Dohmann with the Minus K built in suspension; I am impressed with that piece.) But come onnnn! TechDas is $150K, is it not?
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1200G's aesthetics are iconic. The Volkswagen Beetle's aesthetics are also iconic. But, it still does not make it a lust-worthy automobile enthusiasts sports car. Perhaps the internals and platter make the 1200G's playback worth the investment for some, but between the low quality tonearm and electronic chain store aesthetics, for me it's a no go as even in my secondary office system it would appear cosmetically out of place. |
I see the arm as a weak spot too. All my comments on the SL1200G are based on a Triplanar being installed, IOW they are about the platter and drive only.
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If I had a criticism of this table, It would not be the arm. It is very good. Is there better, of course but for most people it will be all they ever need. It would be that I think this table could be quieter. The Linn and SME do seem quieter. Not sure if it power supply related but just an early observation. Again, this table is in its infancy. That is not to say its not quiet, because it is. The thing it does not do is color the sound like a linn or an SME, VPI, etc. I truly believe you hear what is there for good or bad in spades. |
One of the things I am amazed by is how well this table plays old vinyl. Old living stereo vinyl sound incredible. Cartridge does have a lot to do with it but it just cruises through crescendos with ease, much better or as good as almost every belt drive table I have ever heard at any price. Direct drive is an eye opener. The motor is the heart of a turntable and the 1200g has a good one. The thing is that this table is not even near broken in yet. |
The Linn was very detailed and did have a deep soundstage. It was just not as agile as the 1200g. I do think it sounded as good or better than the SME 20 that I heard. I honestly think the 1200G does everything better than the Linn. Thats just my ears. Maybe it was the cartridge or the system I heard it on. |
1200G's aesthetics are iconic. Beautiful platter. Except for the blue LED lights. I really despise non natural lights in electronics. Whoever invented blue LEDs should be permanently cast out from society :)
Tonearm is of good quality. Better than similarly priced tonearms in Pro-Ject turntables, Clearaudio, VPI, etc. Having said that, it's nowhere near the sound quality, fit, and finish of even the least expensive SME.
I use an SME 309 with my Gyro SE and the 1200G's tonearm literally felt like a Mattel toy in comparison. 1200G's finger lift may be the worst I've ever seen. In order for the arm to sit in the arm rest and latched, the finger lift must be lowered first. So when starting a record, one has to unlatch the plastic retainer, then lift the tonearm, then place it over the record, and finally lower the tonearm again. It feels cheap and wobbly to boot.
Isolation feet are great and extremely effective. Chassis is sturdy and the plinth is made from a solid thick aluminum. Platter, bearing, and motor are state of the art and can compete with anything at any price range. The entire turntable is of high mass, weighing 40 pounds or so.
I'm not a fan of brushed aluminum finish, it looks cheap and is a cop-out.
I'm also not a fan of the platter sitting so low. Ortofon 2M Black has a height of 18mm from the stylus to the top of the cartridge. According to Technics' manual, VTA should be set at 1mm. But even at 0mm, tail was still too high up. This turntable would greatly benefit from the much talked about Saec SS-300 solid mat, or any number of other metallic thick (4-6mm) mats, such as Oyaide MJ-12, etc.
1200G sounds better than virtually all MDF or acrylic plinth turntables on the market. But it's nowhere near as good as the best belt drive tables, such as SME, TechDas, Michell, vintage Micro Seiki, etc.
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Txh21y, please do enlighten us at to what you heard when you heard a totally maxed out Linn. What did that consist Of?
Even a LP12 Akurate with the new Lingo 4 will display far superior SQ than a 1200 G. Why, for the simple reason that the isolation that is inherent in the LP12 Akurate is far superior to the 1200G.
Another weak and unfortunate part of the 1200G is the tonearm...not going to have any comparison with any of the current SME arms...
YMMV
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The hard part to swallow about the 1200G for me is the "Guitar Musicians Store" aka DJ turntable aesthetics. With a more polished design, they could have easily sold these to many more high end enthusiasts.
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I doubt you guys are going to reach a consensus but my own opinion is
this: to reach the level of performance afforded by the best vintage DD
turntables after restoration, possible re-plinthing, and calibration of
the drive system, you have to spend more than $20k on a BD. Even then,
there will be qualitative differences due to inherent differences in the
drive technology, and plenty of room for subjective opinion for that
reason. But, Invictus, the adjectives you chose for the new technics
just don't make sense to me, I must say. Unless someone was regarding
the platter with his finger (joke). Well put sir, well put. |
awwwww, now I want that one! |
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I have not tried the 1200G with a modern SME tonearm, so who knows what that could bring... I've set the 1200G up with a Triplanar, and the results were spectacular. |
I doubt you guys are going to reach a consensus but my own opinion is this: to reach the level of performance afforded by the best vintage DD turntables after restoration, possible re-plinthing, and calibration of the drive system, you have to spend more than $20k on a BD. Even then, there will be qualitative differences due to inherent differences in the drive technology, and plenty of room for subjective opinion for that reason. But, Invictus, the adjectives you chose for the new technics just don't make sense to me, I must say. Unless someone was regarding the platter with his finger (joke).
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I do not think so. Panasonic is a much bigger company than SME with more engineering prowess and can absorb costs much easier than SME even though SME is a defense contractor that makes their deck in house from scratch. Thats not to say that the SME is not well engineered table. It is an old design. Great table 25 years ago. Your Michell is better in many ways than the SME. When I heard the SME, I liked it but was somewhat disappointed. I expected more. It is a somewhat thick slow sounding table and although it is very detailed and quiet, when I heard the direct drive in the Technics. it was a ear opener and eye opener at the same time. The leading edge attack and transients are just really something. Sounds spooky real at times. I hear things on a 4K table that I only heard on 20K tables. Frankly the SME sounds in many ways like a Linn LP12. I recently hear a totally maxed out Linn and this 4K table wiped the floor with it. Totally. Sorry but you are wrong on this one. Many things are also very system dependent. In some systems an SME would sound great. You are right about the Michell. It is a great table and it was a difficult decision for me. If I were you, I would keep the Michell unless you just want something different. You cannot get much better than that regardless of price. |
Technics on its own, sounds great. Better than most in its price range. But comparing to SME or Michell, 1200G sounds like mud. Both belt driven turntables play music with significantly more conviction, clarity, drive, and rhythm.
I have not tried the 1200G with a modern SME tonearm, so who knows what that could bring...
And you have it reversed. If Technics tried to manufacture SME's machining, fit, and finish, 1200G would cost $50K.
Aside from a very advanced motor, the rest of the fit and finish is midfi. Your standard cast parts, brushed aluminum and powder coated finish. |
The SME and Technics are 2 different animals. The SME is Smooth, quiet, and slow sounding. The Technics is fast, great timing, pretty darn quiet, great bass, and fairly neutral with a slight hint of warmth. I would say one of the best values in audio today.. If SME made the 1200g, it would cost 15 grand. |
I am using the Boston Acoustics Mat. I would like to try the Luxman mat. Has anyone used the Luxman? |
@audiozen Yup. I'm definitely going for an SME. SME makes the best engineered, built, finished, sounding, and measuring turntables in the world. Followed by TechDas.
If I was getting a Technics, it would have to be the SL-1000R with an SME V 12 tonearm. But the price would be closer to $30K. At that point I would be crazy not to just go for an SME Model 20, or 30. Both are best measuring turntables in the world.
I would not want to put an SP-10R into some nonmetal wood DIY garage plinth.
I think people are getting out of hand in regards to praising these direct drive turntables. They're very good, but that's all that they are.
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We've been using the Oracle mat but it is a bit thick if you want to also use a clamp.
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@atmasphere what mat would recommend for the SL-1200G? I'm using the stock mat and it sounds pretty good. I tried my Herbies mat that improved my prior acrylic platter table but it didn't sound so good on the 1200G. |
invvictus005-Going for the SME? Interesting. The new Technics SP-10R weighs a ton. The motor weighs around 50 lbs. It uses stator coils on both sides of the rotor which are not used in the new GR or G models. There are videos on Youtube how stator coils work with magnets to vastly improve AC current resulting in a more powerful motor drive. The SP-10R
has a S/N level of -92 db's. That figure is just crazy for a direct drive motor. Heck, if I were to spend that amount of funds, I would go for the Technics SP-10R with an SME tonearm. I use to drool over SME in the 80's. As many are aware, they invented the world's first lift tone arm in 1958 which truly was the year that high end started, since it was the same year that 2-channel 33 1/3 stereo vinyl records hit the market. Thanks for the tip on the 2M Black. Curious how it would compare to the classic
Shure V-15 VxMr. Ten years ago people were paying up to $2K for the Shure on Ebay and they sold fast. Always wanted that cartridge but haven't had a turntable since '94. |
Even though the spectral frequency plots looked slightly better on the
charts from the Caliburn which has slightly more opened detail, the
Sl-1200G sounded fuller in the midrange and more relaxed. The platter pad is part of the sound and the Technics does not have a very good pad. That can really affect the plots! |
@audiozen 2M Black is my favorite current cartridge at any price. I really love it that much. I used it on the 1200G and it sounded fantastic. I now use it on a Gyro SE and it's pretty incredible. My next turntable will be either SME Model 10 or Model 15 and I will continue to use the 2M Black.
There are a lot of amazing vintage MMs, such as ML180, but on the current market, nothing can touch the 2M Black. |
Ortofon 2M Black. Since I'm moving ahead putting together my final system, including the SL-1200 GR, I have my heart set on the 2M black and was curious if any Technics owners using the newer G or GR are using the cartridges from the 2M series. I watched and listened to a couple of nights ago on Youtube through my Altec Lansing processor and my KOSS headphones of Michael Fremers' (as mmakshak mentions above in his post) test between the Caliburn, $146K, Phew! and the SL-1200G. Even though the spectral frequency plots looked slightly better on the charts from the Caliburn which has slightly more opened detail, the Sl-1200G sounded fuller in the midrange and more relaxed. No wonder post on this thread mentioned the new Technics models have belt drive companies very nervous, probably to the point where their wearing adult diapers to catch sudden discharges from panic attacks. I just may change at the last minute and go for the G. There are complaints online that the Technics units are priced to high. Baloney! For what the G does after hearing the table, at $4K its a steal. Goodbye belt drive. |
Mmakshak, I agree completely. ;)
The essence of a good performance IMO is to get the sense of a living, breathing person behind the microphone not just a collection of notes & sounds. Not to mention a soundscape that features the necessary dynamics.
I think I’ve said as much elsewhere but not in this many words ;)
With the Law of Diminishing Returns being so starkly emphasized few will be willing or able to embrace the difference.
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Moonglum, I believe the YouTube video of vocals shows the Caliburn to flesh out the song more than the Technics 1200G. |
Back in 1990 I put a Denon DP-59L table on layaway for thirty days. Just bought a Carver system at the time. Sound City in New Jersey was discounting them since they were going out of production. The table was even quiter than the Technics tables at the time. The Denon had a S/N of -82 db's. Three weeks later I went to purchase and Sound City sold the last unit and refunded my deposit. Should have gone elsewhere due to Sound City's reputation. This was during the golden days of Denon. Their best years were through the mid-eighties through the late nineties. They have always been neck and neck with Sony and Technics. And don't forget Denon built the world's first CD player in 1980, a pro model for studio's in Japan. Sony came out with the CDP-101 in late 1982. |
randyk-Thanks for checking. Went on the puresound website and checked out the STST. Not the one. The table I saw had a minimalist clover shaped wood plinth. |
schubertCleeds, Denon was far from all out and I imagine you didn’t live there for 3 years.
The Denon DP-80 motor cost about $800 when I bought in new back around 1980, the equivalent of about $2,900 today. That was for the motor only; I mounted it in a VPI two-arm base and don’t offhand recall the cost. I think it was the best direct drive turntable of that era - much, much better and more versatile than the Technics. But the best belt drive turntables walked all over it. I'm not sure what you mean by me not living there. |
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Cleeds, Denon was far from all out and I imagine you didn't live there for 3 years .
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If anyone has info on a direct turntable from Germany I came across last fall and regret not bookmarking the web page, its a stunning direct motor design that turns the platter on a floating bearing system. the cut-away pics of the motor looked very innovative. Sure like to check it out but have a hard time locating it online. |
Heck, if I were to spend $20K or more on a turntable I wouldn't waste my time with any brand and buy one of Artisan Fidelity's tables which are at the very pinnacle of analog playback. The current Technics SP-10MK3 that Chris is selling on Audiogon for $38,895.00, in my opinion is currently the most beautiful turntable on planet earth. And only weighs 350 pounds shipped! Phew! |
cleeds-I checked out the VPI Direct Drive classic model on their site. It has a rumble/noise measurement of -80 db. The Technics SL-1200G is rated at -78 db. Not much difference. The Technics wow and flutter measures better than the VPI. The VPI weighs 75.5 lbs and cost $30K.
At $4K, the Technics is a wiser choice. |
Ralph, it seems needledrops were plenty good enough for *everyone* to
decide that the new Technics 1200 "trashed" MF's "big rig"! ;) :D The new 1200 has to have a lot of people making turntables worried! The problem with a needledrop is you can't really know what it is. What if its been doctored? You might never know. But in the case you mentioned, I'm not surprised :) |
audiozen Technics makes the only direct
drive motor's on the planet that have the same low noise level's of the
best belt drives You've overlooked a few of its competitors, e.g. the VPI direct drive. |
schubertWhen the Japanese go all out nobody can beat them .
That's just silly. The two best days I had with my Denon DP-80 was the day I bought it (new), and the day I sold it. |
You will find many "dead quiet" turntables on the planet "Zerton" ;) |
When the Japanese go all out nobody can beat them .
Most can't even come close .
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psag-In 1980 I owned a Dual 701 direct drive turntable. At the time, my older brother owned a Technics SL-1200. He lived two miles from me in north Seattle. From time to time I would listen to vinyl at his apartment. The Dual was noisy compared to the Technics which was dead quiet. A Technics fan boy? Your damn right I am! "but so what?"..you just don't get it. The Technics SP-10 motor's from years ago weigh a ton and are constantly in demand on the used market. Technics makes the only direct drive motor's on the planet that have the same low noise level's of the best belt drives which is why they never stop selling and are always in demand by the most die hard vinyl fans. "thousands of great turntables currently available" ..where? on the planet Zerton? |
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There are hundreds if not thousands of great turntables currently available. Why waste your breath trumpeting about a turntable that you haven't seen or heard, and does not even yet exist in commercial form? Are you a Tecnics fanboy? I owned a Technics turntable in the 70's and it was a good turntable, but so what? |
Ralph, it seems needledrops were plenty good enough for *everyone* to decide that the new Technics 1200 "trashed" MF's "big rig"! ;) :D
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@moonglum needle drops on YT aren't really going to tell you much. There are too many variables!
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