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I am currently running AC Genesis speakers, Pass Labs XA200.5 mono blocks and Wadia S7i cd player with complete loom of High Fidelity CT-1 Ultimate Reference cabling throughout with great success. I got a photo posted in the virtual systems section. |
Thanks! for sharing- lindemann001
this really says much, as the VAC, is no slouch. What other gear and cabling is in your system? |
Quite stunningly musical for the new ARC Ref 6 which outperformed my previous both VAC Signature MKIIa preamp and MBL 6010D by a wide margin. I could not believe my own ears of the different in sound quality what the Ref 6 could bring. The only other time that I heard a preamp that as fully satisfied as this is the $66K VAC Statement Line Preamplifier. |
TY- dbarger.
Keep me posted & Happy Listening! |
jafant, the preamp feeds a Ref75se. I find Nordost works well with ARC. |
It's amazing how AR brings more detail and musicality on each upgrade every 3 years. Can you imagine 20 years from now you will be able to hear a fart out of silence.
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Thanks! for sharing- dbarger
what other gear is in your system, including cabling?
Happy Listening! |
Yes, I got my Ref6 last week. It is significantly more detailed and "musical" than my Ref5se was. It feels faster, and more musically communicative. It actually seems like they could have charged quite a bit more for these improvements. Every song has details never heard before. I had no idea there was still so much information to be revealed.
Honestly, I was quite happy with my 5se. But this is really quite an improvement.
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Bump; has anyone heard the 6? |
Have Ref6's started shipping? If so, any impressions?
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Anyone else here have the new "6"?
If so, comment about its sound and presentation.
Otherwise, the REF5 SE is going to be very tough to beat (no pun), especially, when fitted w/ REF XL or OPUS cabling via Transparent.
Later on, will we see/hear a Ref 6 SE model?
Keep me posted & Happy Listening! |
Not a bad deal at all.With a warranty,its got to be good,imo |
Taters,
No, per the previous post above. I bought a new in box Ref
5SE in black for under 10K. |
Statman,
Are you saying you bought a new ref-6 for 10k? That would be 30 percent off retail. I can't imagine ARC offering a 30 percent discount on a new product. If you are talking about buying a new ref-5se for 10k. That still doesn't make sense to me when many are available at 7000.00 to 7500.00 with low hours and mint condition. If you bought a used one there would be very little downside if you were going to sell it in the next couple of years. |
I found out today my dealer who is only 8 miles away have
already sold 3 Ref 6 preamps. I
definitely paid under 10K for a new unit! |
Common. Tell us the price. I'm dying to know.
enjoy |
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I am getting my new Ref5SE next week. Check with your dealers about closeout pricing.
Et88b
10-27-15: Minorl
Well sooner or later (sooner I expect), dealers are going to have to clear out their stock of REF 5SEs in order to make room both physically and financially for the REF 6 pre-amp. So, I do expect that dealers are going to offer the units at very close to what they actually paid AR for them. Also, once a unit is discontinued, AR's mandates on strict pricing controls go out the window and dealers can then sell for whatever they want.
I just happened to call my dealer and ask if he even had a Ref5 SE. First answer was, "yes". The second question from me was, "what color". It was black as I had hoped for. When he told me the price, I could not believe it! I am picking up the new one today, and returning the silver one they loaned me. Good things come to those who wait sometimes? |
I did notice the new Ref6 is absent the unity gain as a designated input. I tried to download the manual but it isn't loaded on the ARC website yet. As far as the new look I saw the GS series at RMAF and sorry, I prefer the older look. This is too Euro for me and they deleted the option of the black case plate, which I realize would probably not look good. All based on my taste of course. But bottom line it better sound great, I estimate the REF 6 will come in at 14K US. I suppose the LS28 will have the same look or very similar. |
Well sooner or later (sooner I expect), dealers are going to have to clear out their stock of REF 5SEs in order to make room both physically and financially for the REF 6 pre-amp. So, I do expect that dealers are going to offer the units at very close to what they actually paid AR for them. Also, once a unit is discontinued, AR's mandates on strict pricing controls go out the window and dealers can then sell for whatever they want.
So, first I expect to see customers buying the REF 6 and selling their REF 5 or REF 5SE units. Then I expect customer pressure and financial and space pressure to force dealers to clear out their REF 5SE units.
To me, the REF 3, REF 5 (not that much better than the REF 3) and REF 5SE (definitely better than the REF 3) will be excellent units to own and with the introduction of the REF 6, it will offer some the opportunity to upgrade to the REF 5SE.
Since audio reproduction perfection isn't here yet, this type of upgrades and new offerings will never go away. And that's okay.
Manufacturers cannot become stagnant. I have no problem with them continuing to try to better the industry and hobby.
enjoy |
I can't see buying a new one when you can pick up a mint condition Ref-5se for about 7000.00. And I doubt they are selling close out one's for 40 percent off retail. |
I am getting my new Ref5SE next week. Check with your dealers about closeout pricing. |
I made a decision.some time ago,this 5se will do me for ever.Whether that changes several years from now.Time will tell.Id like to try a few other bits first.powercable,interconnect,speakers etc. |
Wow, some of the discord here is amazing. AR is a company, just like Conrad Johnson, Atmosphere, etc. some companies have larger R&D departments than others. Big deal. Take for granted that some people are in the "amp of the month club" and have to buy new and "better" equipment whenever it comes out, and in my opinion, more power to them. However, no one is forcing anyone to buy anything.
If you aren't in the club I mentioned above, then you are reviewing and auditioning the equipment and have made a personal determination that it is better than what you previously owned.
Lets not forget that lots of "high end" equipment is simply not carried by many brick and mortar dealers. This means that unless you have friends with equipment or can travel distances to audition, you really can't compare with other equipment.
I have read and heard much about Atmosphere equipment, but I couldn't tell you one store that sells it. I'm absolutely sure it is top quality and sounds wonderful however. And, having some sort of relationship with dealers on a long time basis really helps. Which I have established.
but, if I didn't like the sound of the latest and greatest AR equipment over some other equipment and I was in the market to buy, I most certainly would buy the other equipment, if I could be assured that if there was a problem, that company would be around to fix it.
I would love to hear Atmosphere equipment, so don't get me wrong.
I recently purchased a demo pair of AR REF250 amps. I have mentioned many times that they were the best amps (tube or SS) that I have heard to date. It took two years for me to buy the amps. no hurry. Now they are offered in the SE version. Am I drooling over upgrading to the SE? Absolutely not.
When I upgrade (if ever) my AR REF 3 pre-amp, I will look at the REF 5SE and Atmosphere's pre-amp.
I do however, have one stipulation. I have to be able to audition that equipment in my home system. Hearing it in a store, really doesn't do it for me. If I can't audition at home, that presents a very real problem for me. For that kind of cash, I don't think that is too much to ask.
Which companies have stood the test of time and also have stood by their products?
AR can and will diagnose and fix every product they made. Same is true for Atmosphere, Pass, and many others.
Not true for some others. That is also a problem.
enjoy and be happy |
I like the look of it.I suppose there will be a se edition,eventually |
I must be an oddball. I hated the direction ARC was going with the look started with Ref 3. I liked what I saw when the GSPre was introduced. And I am glad ARC is adopting that look for the Ref 6. (Not like I am going to run out and buy one...)
Smoffatt & Mofimadness,
My previous pre was the LS-25 Mk I with GNSC ref mod. Actually I still have it. I thought that was going to be my preamp forever...Then another local audiophile put his GNSC Ref 2 on the market. Of course, I had to jump on it. Very happy with it at the moment. Maybe I'll consider the Ref 16 in 10 years. But by then, my ears might be shot.
FrankC |
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The Ref Phono 2SE came out the same time as the Ref 5SE linestange in 2011.
If ARC follows form, a new Reference Phono 3 should be out very soon.
. |
The words high definition are a ARC trademark. |
This is WAAY off topic. Just bought a very old D120 amplifier. It does say high definition on the faceplate...what can be expected using a CJ tubed pre, Maverick CD, 1.6 maggies? I have a SS CJ, want to experiment at low $ involvement. Please don't get sick on me. |
Robert Fulton was pretty close with both Bill Johnson and Jim Winey, being located close to them in Minnesota. He made fantastic speakers in the '70's (famous for his Model 80, and Model J, Gordon Holt's favorite for awhile), and is credited with introducing the first high end speaker cable, Fulton Browns. He also designed and manufactured excellent tube electronics, a real hi-fi Renaissance man. |
Bdp24 ...
Yes, I've heard of Fulton. Don't have any of his recordings, but I have a friend who, I think, has his entire catalog.
If you're still digging through thrift stores and garage sales, keep your eyes out for the "Century" label. These were recorded by a small company that recorded high school and college coral groups and orchestral music. Some of them are real knockouts.
Back to the ARC Treadmill ... |
Yeah Oregonpapa, I could live with (and have) any ARC, Atma-Sphere, or EAR product (let's not forget Music Reference, either)---they all make great music. Cost of ownership is a separate question.
Speaking of designers who have made great recordings, have you heard any of Robert Fulton's ARK label LP's? Oh man, unbelievably good recordings of amateur Minnesota choirs, with astoundingly liquid transparency, startling immediacy, and the best inner detail and delicacy I've ever heard in reproduced music, each voice in the choir clearly audible. Maybe the best choral recordings ever made. |
A welcome aesthetic.
I'd be interested in a comparison with the XP-30... |
Taters, yes I was on that treadmill starting with a SP-3, Dual 75 and Dual 51. Later I got a SP-6C. It ended my ARC phase when the SP-6C turned off with low voltage and turned on again as the voltage returned to normal. It emitted lots of DC that my Electron Research amp sent on to my Linn Sondak speakers and fused on the drivers. I thought Johnson should pay for the repair but he declined. I swore never again to buy ARC, but the Reference 2 had so much acclaim that I bought one. I hated it and sold it.
I have a friend who has heard the Reference 6 and says to my surprise and disbelief that it is better than my Koda K-10. The reason I doubt it is because it is a tube preamp. I find tubes too slow. |
Taters sez ...
"ARC is banking on guys like you to support them with their continuous upgrades and new products. The only problem is the day will come when the musical chairs will stop."
On the contrary Taters ... guys like me are banking on ARC to continue to upgrade their equipment and advance the state of the art so that the new technology will trickle down to their more affordable products. Hopefully, when ARC's musical chairs stop, I'll be listening to Golden Harps and Angels that play alto sax like Paul Desmond.
Bdp24 ...
Hopefully, Ralph has improved his products over the years as ARC has done. Around 20 years ago, I had a pair of M-60's on loan for about two years. They belonged to a friend and in some ways he and I prefered them to my ARC Classic 60. Because of my friend, we just kept the ARC amp out of the system for the entire two years. Ralph's amps had a beautiful midrange ... and I mean beautiful. But in comparison to the ARC Classic 60, the Atmosphere M-60's lacked bass and highs. The bass wasn't even close.
At one point (also over 20 years ago) I had the opportunity to hear Ralph's most expensive preamp (I forgot the model) in the system for two evenings. It was glorious. Way more musical, transparent and realistic than my ARC SP-14. But, that was in comparison to the SP-14, not the REF-3 or the new REF-6.
At the same time, we inserted Ralph's big mono amps into the system along with his best preamp. It was amazing. That was in comparison with the Classic 60 and Ralph's M-60's. I'd like to make that same comparison with my current amp, the ARC-REF75se.
As I said, all of this was over 20 years ago. Since then, I've had nothing but ARC gear in the system. I'll say this ... from memory ... If Ralph hasn't followed the upgrade path as ARC has done, then what I'm hearing in the system now would KILL Ralph's stuff. I suspect though, that Ralph has improved right along with everyone else. Ralph knows his electronics ... and he knows music. All one has to do to understand where Ralph is coming from is to visit his room at one of the shows. Hey, anyone who uses a classic Empire turntable to demo his equipment at the shows can't be all bad. *lol*
By the way, I have two of Ralph's private recordings in my collection. You want to talk realistic sounding recordings? Realism ... In spades! Like I said, Ralph knows his stuff.
Atmosphere, EAR, ARC ... ying/yang and hooray for tubes!
Happy listening ... |
...a static no innovation or incremental improvement company is probably dead. BlackBerry owned the smartphone segment...rested on their laurels and didn't innovate. Their market share plummeted. . |
Bdp-24,
I don't want to debate sound quality. That is such a personal thing. I will say from a business perspective ARC is much smarter than Atmosphere and EAR. They have their customers on the audio treadmill. That brings in steady business for their company and their retailers. |
. It looks to me as if Whole Foods had a load of sour grapes to get rid of. LOL! ..it happens here on the 'Gon every time Audio Research has an upgrade on their reference level products. . |
Mono and Stereo have two internal photos....blue board, additional tubes, hard to see volume ctl...
As a 5SE owner i welcome this. a static no innovation or incremental improvement company is probably dead. |
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Twenty years ago at CES, Ralph Karsten asked me what pre-amp I was using with his Atma-Sphere M-60's and old Quad speakers. When I told him an ARC LS-2B MkII, he said "My MP-3 is a lot more transparent". Now, you can say he would of course say that, and you may or may not agree with his assessment. If the MP-3 WAS more transparent than the LS-2B MKII, when was ARC able to surpass the MP-3 with a new pre-amp, and at what price? You would of course be correct in saying that this argument relies on the MP-3 in fact being more transparent than the LS-2B MKII, but for the sake of argument let's do so for the moment.
So, that was twenty years ago. Let's look at the difference between what owning an ARC pre-amp (twenty years ago an LS-2B MKII) and owning an Atma-Sphere pre-amp (MP-3) has involved. The MP-3 is now in Mk.3.3 designation, ARC being not the only company offering improvements to it's products over time. Ralph, however, has incorporated his improvements into the MP-3 as retrofits, not requiring the owner to sell his old pre-amp to get the new. How much has an ARC pre-amp owner had to spend, in comparison to the owner of an MP-3, to keep the sound quality of his pre-amp at a level comparable to the sound of the also improved MP-3? The LS-2B MKII owner may have gone the LS-15, then LS-16, then LS-25, then LS-26 route (ignoring for now the Reference level pre-amps), each time having to sell the old for the new, losing money each time. How much has the ARC owner spent to get from the LS-2B MKII to the LS-26? And after all that money spent, how does the LS-26 sound compared to the LS-2B MKII? ARC would have you believe that each and every new model has made the old sound now mediocre in comparison. After all the model changes, perfection should be just as close as the next new model! How does that LS-26 compare to the MP-3 Mk.3.3? And how much has the owner of the original MP-3 spent for all it's upgrades, to bring it to the current Mk.3.3 status? The answer is certainly far less than the ARC owner has spent to get from the LS-2B MKII to the LS-26. If the same reasoning is used including the Reference 1 & 2 pre-amps (which would require one to feel the MP-3 Mk.3.3 is their equal), this conclusion is even more true.
ARC owners tend to compare new, improved ARC products only to other ARC products, being ARC loyalists. Robert Levi has listened to the ARC Reference 3 side-by-side with the EAR 868, preferring the EAR. Again, you may or may not agree with his assessment. The 868 has not been changed in at least ten years, and is available used for around $3,000-$3,500. An ARC Reference 3 owner may have bought and sold any combination of LS-15, 16, 17, 25, 26, Ref 1, and/or Ref 2 to finally arrive with his current pre-amp, spending far more than $3,500 (or about twice that if an 868 is bought new) to do so. Is the price it costs to move up the ARC pre-amp line justified by the SQ one ends up with after that amount is spent? Or would a pre-amp shopper be better off going straight for a, say, EAR 868? Hey, I'm just askin'! |
Oregonpapa,
ARC is banking on guys like you to support them with their continuous upgrades and new products. The only problem is the day will come when the musical chairs will stop. |
Wow! It looks to me as if Whole Foods had a load of sour grapes to get rid of.
Taters ... as one of those "aging clientele," I can assure you, I don't need hearing aids. I laughed at your comment though. You're a funny guy ... I appreciate that.
I recently had the pleasure of hearing an ARC SP-3A in a system. It was a lovely sounding piece.
I own an ARC Classic 60 that I use as a spare amp. Its very musical and enjoyable to listen to. I replaced it with the ARC-REF-75. Then I upgraded the tubes to the KT-150's. From there, I sold the REF-75 (kept the KT-150's) and replaced it with the ARC-REF-75se.
I used to own an ARC-SP-6 that I loved. I replaced it with an ARC-SP-14 ... and then replaced the SP-14 with my current ARC-REF-3.
I used to have the ARC CD-3 and went through all of the ARC tubed CD players to my current ARC-CD7se which is a killer of a CD player. The most analog sounding CD player I've heard to date. Although some think the CD-6 excels in this area.
Same thing with the Phono amps. I went though them all. Now I'm using the ARC PH-8.
All of this took years of upgrading to accomplish. With every upgrade, there was a significant improvement in MOST areas. Not one change was a setback in musicality, tonality, staging, dynamics, inner-detail or overall believability. My system just kept getting more emotionally involving over the years.
Had I not gone through the upgrade path with ARC, I'd still be listening to my SP-14 and Classic 60. Yep, they made music ... but not like the current ARC equipment I own. The difference is NIGHT and DAY.
Was the time, effort and money worth it? Hell yes ... I have thousands of records and CD's covering all genres of music .. and I want to get the best out of them. It's what I do. It's who I am.
None of you naysayers have to follow the pathway of upgrades. You can stay musically satisfied with your Fisher tube receiver, your Grado 60 headphones, your $35 Grado cartridge, your original AR turntable, your AR-3 bookshelf speakers,your Elac tape player, your Radio Shack wires and your Elvis 45's. I once thought that was great too. Then I found a pair of modified mono Dynaco III's and a modified Dynaco Pas-3 for sale in the Recycler ... and I haven't looked back since.
Very soon, I will be looking at a REF-6 sitting in the vacant space left by my trusty old, lovely sounding and VERY musical REF-3.
Peace out guys ... |
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Taters, if the 5-SE goes for $7,500...that would work for me. I have at least $5k of equity in my Ref3. $2500 to move up to the 5-SE would seem reasonable to me.
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Mitch, that's what's nice about the ever ending upwards curve of new product introductions. There will be some great gear coming on the used market and at far more palatable pricing. I picked up my ARC D70Mk2 for a literal steal after it was placed here on A'gon. The assumption being that over the many years the newer pieces are better than this old classic. However, as several other local a'philes can attest, the old girl still can beat off most newcomers. Why, because like may designers, WZ Johnson had his 'golden' era- and he had periods that were not so great. The trick is to find a piece from your favorite designer that falls into the 'golden' era. Today, I still believe that in WZJ's and ARC's case, there are numerous pieces that followed these amps that simply don't hold a candle to them....including many of the current amps from ARC! When a designer hits one out of the park, like WZJ did with the D70, M100, D115's, then it is SUPER hard to repeat! |
Davt,
You forgot to mention all the SE models in between. |
Mitch4t,
How inexpensive do you think the 5 SE is going to get? If you figure the Ref 6 retails for 14k. Personally I don't think it will go under 7500.00 which is still a good chunk of change. |
i dont get everyone's complaints. every manufacturer releases new models that are supposed to be an improvement. |
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Davey, your quote is hilarious!
But, I'm a huge Audio Research fan. I did purchase a Ref3 when it was new, and I'm glad I did. At $10k, I still think it was a bargain and I still enjoy it immensely 9 years later. At $14k, I cannot afford a new Ref6...but I do believe I will be able to move up to the Ref5-SE when those prices inevitably come down as the deeper pockets unload and move up to the Ref6.
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