As a follow-up...
I went with a Denon X4700H receiver and a PS Audio BHK 250 2-ch amp driving my 2.3s. Listening in Stereo mode (2 ch + subs, 60hz crossover) is divine. My Krell Home Theater Standard NEVER sounded this full and smooth. It's a cliché, but they sound like new speakers. I'm just sitting here listening in awe. |
Greetings all. I've read this thread over the last week, and have really appreciated the info and discussion. I'd love to hear your amplifier opinions, if you'd indulge some background info.
Due to ongoing complications related to the plague, we've finished our basement and I've moved my desk down there. All of that inspired me to set up my audio equipment after five years of storage (we moved to this house 5 years ago.
So... I have a 5 channel setup, a big tv, and a new couch is coming. We like TV shows and movies, but music is much more important to me. All this stuff (not the TV) was bought back in 2001 when I was excited about multi-channel SACDs and concert DVDs. Now most of my music comes from Apple Music (2 channel streaming, don't judge me) but I just ordered a Pink Floyd box set that comes with Blurays of some albums and live shows. Favorite music is all over the board, including Tool, Radiohead, Elbow, and Alice in Chains, but also modern jazz, classical guitar concertos, bluegrass, and more.
I have 2.3s for the mains, an MCS1 for center, and 2 OG PowerPoints as surrounds (what we called "rears" 7.1 brought "back" speakers into the world). These are matched with a
Onkyo PR-SC866, Krell Home Theater Standard and two SVS CS-Ultra subs running on a Crown K2.
I have mild sensory processing disorder, and am very sensitive to treble "ringing" (think trumpets, violins, and similar audio icepicks). Audessey MultiEq has been a godsend in this area, as I've been able to use a rolloff curve that almost entirely solves the problem for me without feeling making things sound muffled or muddy to me (which just "turning the treble all the way down" used to do).
OK, a lot of background info I guess (sorry). Just one more thing.
I can only get three of the Krell's five channels to work. I haven't experimented a whole lot with it yet, but I did attempt to replace a fuse on one of the channels with no luck. I've looked into repair, but it seems Krell has had some trouble over the years and at best I'd be shipping this 100-pound monster away ($$) leaving me with almost nothing for a while.
So right now I'm not running my subs at all, I have my 2.3s running off of the Crown K2, and my center and rears are running on the three working Krell channels. If I do nothing more, it already sounds "pretty darn good", but can't quite reach the heights I had with the setup at the old house playing, say, a Nine Inch Nails concert. I have an eARC adapter coming out of my TV that I'm using for source switching which works fairly well but feels like a band aid.
So anyway, I'm looking at options and I want to maximize joy without being stupid. But I know that "reasonable" means something different to everyone.
I want to give the Crown back to the subs. Option 1) I could replace the pre-pro with a good receiver, and use the three Krell channels for the L/C/R and the receiver amps for the rears and possibly some height channels. Or, Option 2) I could buy a nice stereo amp to drive the L/R and use the three Krells for center and rears. Option 3) I could replace the Krell with a new 5 channel amp, try to repair and sell it.
Option 2 appeals to me. Getting a musical but powerful stereo amp to make music on the 2.3s sound as good as I can get them sounds like the most fun and potentially rewarding. But I don't know anything about amps and would love to discuss options with y'all. Thoughts?
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Hey thanks!
I guess I wrote all of the above to think out loud, and what I'd really like to hear is opinions on current stereo amplifiers for 2.3s with an emphasis on music.
It looks like the brands I'm familiar with (I've been out of the loop for 15 years, haha), Krell, BAT, Classe, all have current, hi-current offerings. But I see others, like PS Audio and Emotiva, that I've never heard of.
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Thank you all for the responses and especially for the link to the google doc. It gave me a lot to think about. Tom's point hits a little close to home ("fullness, richness, lushness, warmth"). The pursuit of such "ideals" has led me to consider B.A.T. and PS Audio for their promised "tube input stage". But is distortion really the goal? And how do I know I'm getting the "right distortion", haha.
The consistent message I've seen is that Thiels (including my OG 2.3s) like current, so I've been looking in the 400+ wpc @ 4 ohms range. But the rears (OG PowerPoints), while still rated @ 4 ohm, have recommended specs more in the 100 wpc range.
So maybe the most cost-effective (but kludgy and/or boring) option for me is to replace my pre-pro with a good AV receiver (Looking at Denon, possibly Anthem), use the onboard amps for the rears and possibly height channels in the future, and then just use the three still-working Krell amps from my old Home Theater Standard as the front three. |
jafant "Which brand of cabling are you using?"
I bought my speaker wire, spade and banana plugs, and interconnect cables from SVSound.com. Fancy, ain't I? |
yyzsantabarbara
I’ve just been sitting and re-listening to my collection with big smile on my face. In your honor, I’ll break out the Santana this morning!
When my 5-channel Krell amplifier died, I had to do a lot of thinking, and research, and soul searching in a short amount of time. I’ve always (for 20+ years) built and maintained a home theater setup and then used that for both music and movies. But over the years movies went from maybe 60% importance to more like 20%.
So with this 80%-music priority in mind, I decided to put the budget I had (arbitrarily) determined was reasonable into getting the best 2-ch/stereo MUSIC I could out of my "fronts" (Thiel 2.3s).
And holy crap, was that ever the right decision for me. Literally for 20 years, I’ve fiddled with placement, DOLBY PRO LOGIC (buying and installing the promising DOLBY PRO LOGIC II! upgrade for my (at the time) Anthem pre/pro), trying and dismissing and trying again 5-channel stereo (later, "multi-channel" stereo, of course), trying desperately to get the enveloping, rich, vibrant sound I craved. And now I’ve made more progress toward that goal in 2 weeks than I’d made in the 20 years before.
Long story short (too late), if I were going to put my amp $ into two channels, I’d still need something to run center and surrounds for movies/tv. And I also noticed that my trusty Onkyo pre/pro had begun its 2nd decade, with its 4 HDMI 1.4 inputs, etc. So I got a new Denon receiver to act as my pre-pro. For a 2-ch amp then, in addition to asking here, I’ve spent a lot of time on WhiteCamaroSS’s ampnanza thread (I’m on page, like, 15. I’ll be reading that for the rest of my life I think). Ultimately, I went with the PS Audio BHK Signature 250 "dual-mono". With my Krell as "trade in", I got it for just over $5k. I was excited about PS Audio being a relatively local company. Also, they have a great in-home 30 day policy, and everything I had read about the BHK 250/300s has been positive.
I don’t even know if the Denon is going to be good for my surrounds and center (I assume they will), because all I want to do is listen to stereo music. I did set the Thiels as "small" on the Denon, with a crossover at 60 hz, and have two SVS subs in the corners helping out, but the Thiels and PS are doing most of the work. I keep geeking out to my wife saying, "THIS IS JUST TWO CHANNEL!!1!???!" And she gives me that smile and nod that made me marry her long ago. |
solobone22
Sorry I missed the question. I ended up trading in the Krell for the PS Audio BHK 250. |
@solobone22 @tomthiel
It’s very hard to compare the PS Audio to the Krell for several reasons. I suspect the Krell has needed service for quite a while, so I’m sure I haven’t heard it at its best for a decade. Other changes I’ve made at the same time: I’m running two matching subs on the left and right corners and I’ve set the crossover at 60 hz instead of 80, which I always used before.
It still worked okay through 3 channels with balanced cables but when I replaced the Onkyo Pre/Pro with a new Denon receiver and had to try RCA inputs, the Krell hummed badly. I looked into getting it serviced, but I can hardly tell if the company still exists. I left a message at a number I found online (that sounded like some dude’s cell phone) and never heard back.
I didn’t have time to do a lot of research, but found the @whitecamaross thread and saw the positive blurb at the top about the BHK 300 and saw the TAS buyer’s guide positively comparing the 250 to the 300. When I saw that PS Audio was made here in Colorado and gave a generous discount for old broken trade-ins, it was a no-brainer for me.
The main thing I can say in comparison is that with the Krell I always felt the treble was too harsh. I may be over sensitive to treble anyway, but I was never 100% able to listen to violins or trumpets until I heard about Audyssey. It was less about room correction and more about rolling off highs, but Audyssey was a game changing technology for me.
With the PS Audio, the 2.3s are still forward if not bright, but although I keep thinking I’m going to get that ringing in my ears I never quite get it. I didn’t need to be in a hurry to run Audyssey at all. Now that I have run it, I’m running it "Flat".
I listen between 70-75 db on average. Louder than that is still a little too much "in my face". But at that level it really does sound better than ever. Like I said before I no longer need to mess with surround modes to get 3D sound. |
@solobone22
Yeah, tbh I was just ready. I could have put more effort in, but I got about a third of the money back for it that I spent on it 20 years ago. It had a good run. Hopefully "they" will fix it up and someone will get some joy out of it.
I don’t know about shorting out the XLR input, and will look into it. I am getting a little hum through my current system when I connect my PC through HDMI. So far, unplugging the PC’s HDMI cable does the trick and the amp goes dead silent. |
