I have read this post with fascination and it has lead me to do some measurements and calculations. I am an engineer. This sort of thing is what I live for. I have an expensive belt drive tt and therefore I became very interested in determining if I need to invest $4k+ into a tt upgrade because I am missing out on some musical pleasure from my vinyl.
My first measurement was to pull out my strobe disc and fluorescent light. (Ugh I can hear some of you saying, but just listen a moment) I fixated on one black mark and in 10+ revolutions, that mark did not drift as best my eyes could tell. Next, I dropped the needle on the record while remaining fixated on that black mark. Again, no drift at all as best my eyes could tell. I must comment that considering the cost of most of our turntables these days, they sure better be able to hold speed with or without stylus drag. It would be a pretty poor turntable that could not. After all, this is the primary function of the tt- spin the platter.
So at this point, I'm pretty convinced that my tt holds rotational speed very accurately even considering the apparent disadvantage of being a belt drive. Next I put on my Stereo Test Record and played a 1000 Hz test tone. I can hear some Wow in the tone. The "A" tone, 440 Hz makes the Wow much more apparent. So where is the Wow coming from? The specs on my tt state a Wow and Flutter measurement below 0.03%. I believe it. That's part of what I paid for in this very expensive tt. I look at the record, and this is supposed to be a test record, and I see some serious runout. I can hear the Wow precisely when the tonearm is rocking outboard as the record is spinning. As with many records, the tonearm is swaying back and forth due to the runout- ie. the center hole is off position relative to the center point of the grooves. At this point, I would like to borrow a dial indicator from work to measure this runout. (I would also like to see just exactly how much runout is in my platter.) Since I cannot do that today, I measured the distance of the center hole of the record to the outer edge. I found the center hole of this record to be off center by 0.8mm or 0.0315 in. This would yield a runout measurement of 0.016 in. After searching the internet a while I found a specification for records that says the runout tolerance of the hole can be +/-0.015in. Allowing for some measurement error on my part, this test record has runout at the maximum industry tolerance. What does that mean from a sound standpoint?
Well, I measured the radius from the center of the record to the grooves with the "A"/440 Hz. That measured 3.5 in. This puts the groove velocity at that point at about 12.22in/s. Now factor in the runout of 0.016 in and the speed change is 0.05497 in/s. That causes a frequency shift of 2Hz. It is actually +/-2 Hz. This is the theoretical calculation. Now to measure the actual shift.
I happen to have a FFT analyzer handy. (Engineers, sheesh!) So I measured the frequency of the 440 Hz tone being played on my tt and coming out of the speakers. Guess what! I see the periodic Wow in the trace and I also see the frequency varying from 338 Hz to 442Hz! How about that?
I conclude that my tt maintains speed at least an order of magnitude better than a record with production tolerances. If the runout is 0.016in, then the Wow will be 0.45%. That is over 10 times the spec for my tt.
Okay, what does all this mean subjectively? I think that rhythm and pace is definitely a variable among turntables. I have heard it myself on different systems. I don't understand how it differs from one to another. Maybe no one does completely which explains the myriad of solutions in the marketplace for spinning a platter. Maybe someone could come up with a platter design that can true the record to the center of rotation. |
Thanks, Hiho. I am heartened that SOTA fixed that problem. For years with the SOTA Star Sapphire, i thought pitch inaccuracy on piano was normal for LPs. (It replaced a TD125 way back in the early 80s, but I have no recollection of the sound of the TD125.) I have heard from a reliable source that the Spiral Groove tt's are superb as well, attesting to the design skills of Perkins.
For an embarrassingly long period of time I was laboring in my spare time on a complete revision of my Atma-sphere amplifiers. Thus I was not really doing much listening except with a Parasound ss amplifier that did not compel me very much. Two or three days ago, I got my system back up and running with the Atma amps driving the Sound Labs (also with highly modified and very simplified input circuit). By the same token, it was my first extensive audition of my Technics SP10 Mk3 with Reed tonearm. All I can say is "My goodness". Talk about speed and pitch stability and rhythm; that thing is amazing. My wife, who takes only a passing interest in my audio system and in my jazz listening, sat with me for 2 hours, riveted as was I. I have been an audiophile for 35 years but only with DD and idler-drive for maybe two years. I have no plans to go back to bd. |
Excerpt from Stereophile review of the Sota Cosmos: "In the Star, the motor is mounted, for isolation purposes, on the fixed portion of the base assembly separate from the suspended subchassisthe usual practice in this type of turntable since AR started the breed in the '50s. In the Cosmos, the motor is mounted directly on the suspended subchassis, along with the bearing, platter, and arm. This provides an unvarying geometry between the motor and the turntable. The Cosmos relies on its damped subchassis and multi-layered platter to isolate the arm and record surface from motor vibrations." _______ |
Lewm: "Do you mean to say that the Cosmos is subject to M Fremer's critique (motor mounted to base/platter on spring suspension, which is also my criticism), or not?" The Cosmos had the motor and platter mounted on the same subchassis, according to a review in the old AUDIO magazine and Stereophile, therefore it is an improvement over the earlier Sapphire and Star in terms of speed stability. Cosmos's design was largely responsible by the talented Allen Perkins of now Spiral Groove and he is one designer who does care about speed issues. Atmasphere is right that Empire had the foresight to do the same thing in the 208 decades ago and is one of the greatest vintage turntables. Respect! P.S. Linn has a fixed motor and suspended platter. _______ |
Certainly looks like a Brinkmann but the bearing is quite different and unique. I find it quite unlikely if Brinkmann designed this bearing 20 years back and now abandoned this in favour of the very small & plain bearing inside the new TTs with Brinkmann logo. Honestly I don't really care (as I would'nt trade it for a Brinkmann TT). The only thing that I would miss is the helpfull armboard. |
Dear Thuchan, With all your gear (past and present) you of course have much more experience with selling than I. But I have much more time to watch the 'markets' mentioned. Ebay.de is different than audio-markt.de . The latest one
is more suitable for the items with an 'fixed price' in mind ,the former if one has a vaque idea about the price. The listing time is also different: 10 days versus 1 month
min. Ebay.com is more problematic for his TT because of
the postage cost and transport outside of Europe. But like you I also prefer ebay.de. In casu however it is about Geoch and the question what may be the best solution for his problem.
Geoch, Since Brinkmann was employee by Symphonic line it may be the case that he designed this TT? To me your TT looks like an Brinkmann TT.
Regards, |
Dear Thuchan, thank you for your interest. A price of 5000 EURO is enough for me, but I'm not really prepeared to mess with packaging this monster. The company's original package was a joke : 3 big boxes full of urethane chips and nothing else. Anyway I'm glad that you guys want to help me with your advice. It's good to know that I have international friends. |
Hey Geoch, Nandric is right. You will definitely get a good price in the German market for your TT. I have seen one in an exclusive High End shop recently. They sell it as a Brinkmann Project.
I would rather go on ebay, maybe ebay.com than on Audio Markt. At Audio Markt you will be confronted with lots of stupid questions. No need for this experience.
Best @ Good Luck |
Thank you my friend. I appeciate your help, but at the moment I don't have the will to take such a challenge. Thanks again. |
Hi Geoch, May I suggest the German sites : www.ebay.de and
www.audio-markt.de. Your TT and the tonearm are familiar
in Germany and the Germans are the only reach people in Europe at present. You should sell both apart and , considering the postage cost for items above 20 kgr., restrict the delivery of your TT to E.Union. If you need help with German you are welcome.
Regards, |
I would be glad to trade it for a Goldfinger, a SAEC WE800SX, a Centroid or even good DAC. Especially if for the SAEC WE800SX, I would be happy to also give my own WE308SX with the RG6. I don't expect for anyone to reply in this forum, (it is not possible for me to accept the challenge of safetly packing it) but I want to give you an idea of my desparation as I even can't stand to see this TT anymore in my house. I'm sure that someone could bring up the apparent modifications (in motor, PSU, symmetrical flywheel & thread) and perhaps makes it sing to his satisfaction. Others are allready love it's way of performing, but for me it was a very bitter & dissapointing experience and I have to stop here. Impress me yes. This of course is the danger of hearing it without understanding what is going on. The huge wall of sound of it's personality is endlessly throwing dust to your eyes so you can't clearly recognize it's faults. |
"After living with it from '96 till today, I can say that it is not to my liking."
Dear Geoch, After reading the line I have pasted above this one, I would have to say that 15 years of suffering gives you the right to criticize. Now you can get rid of the damn thing. You've given it a fair chance to impress you. |
OK guys, now what about those overpriced dinosaurs full of glamour & macho BS ?
As you see their imposing sight can bring many faulse hopes and great expectations. For me this particular is a cheater but for some others may be the end and all of an analog source. Is it only about the money maker mind behind them ? I asure you NO! Mr Gemein is the kindest of souls among us. So, it is my estimation that we audiophiles, we just don't accept the same values or priorities in music reproduction. I regret that I had to pay such a high price and lost 15 years only to find my own priorities. |
Dear Geoch,
pls. give a warm hello to Chris Skaloumbakas. He will remember my "Greek Membership".
best @ fun only |
Thank you Chris. Of course a big yes by me, but I'll have to mention the name behind of this inspiration is mr. Chris Skaloumbakas president of our audiophile club. |
Dear Geoch A pleasure to do so. Again thank you so much for the recommendation on the Lenco 75. :^) Please let me know if I ever have the permission to post a pic for the inspiration behind my symposium experiment. I will call it INSPIRATION. The people here at Agon would love to see it. Nikola I am sorry for making you look at this tonearm. I understand you are not allowed to buy it based on your principals. I respect u for that. Geochs TT |
Dear Nicola, this is the very first product by Rolf Gemein long before the appearing of Symphonic Line amplifiers. I know that Brinkmann was one of his employees. The RG6 was reviewed by TAS back at 1991 and praised as the best TT in the world. After living with it from '96 till today, I can say that it is not to my liking. |
Hi Geoch, To my knowledge Symphonic line produces amps not
turntables. So it may be possible that Brinkmann produced
this TT for Symphonic line? To me this TT looks like a Brinkmann and should be more easy to sell as a Brinkmann. There is much more in 'a name' than Shakespeare thought. |
Dear all, I'm sorry I've stop watching the forum for a few days and so, I've admit I've felt somewhat pitty for no one of you could not indentify all of my bitter posts regarding the TT which been pictured by Hiho at 11-14-11.
It is my (28000 EURO) Symphonic Line RG6 and I have it from 1996. I'm trying to sell it locally for about a year with no luck here in Greece. I don't know how to post a picture with my Pluto on it (please Chris if you have the kindness do it for me). It is not possible to convert it for other than the euro std of 230V/50Hz and it is a great challenge for me to pack it safetly so, no interest to sell it other than local pick up. I'm not satisfied by this TT and I've allready replaced it by Thorens TD124 II/Saec WE308SX. I would not comment furthermore about it as I've allready said more than enough. You can search my posts in Agon. |
Never tried the Timeline with the Criterion because the air damping asks for a record fixing knob over the spindle of the platter.
I may try without the special fixing tool.
best @ fun only |
I didn't count the screws on the Timeline Thuchan because I thought.......although they supply a Hex bolt with it.........someone is really saying "don't open this!" :^)
How does the Criterion stack up with the Timeline? That would be interesting to know? |
Hi Unoear - so the Sirius is yours :^)
I have never seen one let alone heard one.
If I owned one I would never sell it - even if it meant my two 17 years olds had to pay for their own university.
FWIW - My earlier comment came from reading past posts here by members who have heard it and actually complained about some part of its sonics.
Sounds unbelievable to me. I can only assume the setup (most likely the arm?) must not have been optimal.
Cheers |
That is one thing about the original Empire table that they got right- the platter and the motor mounts are not floating with respect to each other. Wow and flutter on even the first models had excellent specs. The motor on those machines are also quite powerful and have a lot of torque.
A powerful drive is really helpful to speed stability and is why the best vintage machines are still respected today. |
Dear Hiho, I am trying to understand your post on SOTA. Do you mean to say that the Cosmos is subject to M Fremer's critique (motor mounted to base/platter on spring suspension, which is also my criticism), or not? Most users seem to like the Cosmos and the Millennium, so I was not sure whether the current owners of SOTA had cured that problem (by re-design) or not. Surely it was a major issue with the Star Sapphire and that design flaw goes all the way back to the AR. (I have owned both for years at a time.) We forgave the AR for it, because the tt was so cheap and otherwise a good performer. I don't know how the Linn Sondek LP12 is built (never owned one), but the same issue is posed for any belt-drive/spring suspension. |
Dear Unoear,
(why not Duoear ?) you are fully correct. It is not a big problem finding me if you are not restricted to the US as some people seem to be, like Audiofeil for instance. Nevertheless this guy knows all kind of ice cream tastes and National League players (of the US of course) - hmmm maybe interesting.
But back to the topic. Has anyone really opened the Timeline and do you know what this means? Did you count the screws Halcro?
Unoear is a nice acronym. Is Duoear still available :-)
best @ fun only |
Davide256: "the belt provides isolation in power transfer. But a platter mounted on same sub chassis as motor still sees vibration transfer through the chassis. Rega follows this model." The Sota Cosmos (couple models higher than your Sapphire, which I owned and used before) does the same thing and you know why? Because Sota wants to solve the speed issue from previous models! As mentioned by Michael Fremer in Stereophile, on many suspended turntables the motors are "hard-mounted to their bases; when the subchassis was horizontally deflected, the platter-to-motor pulley distance would vary, causing speed irregularities." I no longer own the old Sota Sapphire for a reason. _______ |
Hi Thuchan,
I do understand that your system stands in Bavaria and it is located on-speed outside of Munich :-)
Also, I like following this attitude of "but sometimes fast driving"...out on the road! :-)
Always happy listening! |
Davide256, With all due respect, you are wrong. Linn is OK right after the suspension is tuned and for the next week thereafter. AR and SOTA, up to and perhaps not including their very latest TOTL models, are seriously flawed as regards speed stability. My SOTA Star Sapphire III was a distortion generator on piano music. Have you ever heard a real piano? Do you really like stretch-y belts and belt creep that much? And AR? A classic, yes. A bargain in its day, yes. But an example of how to build a speed-stable tt? Puh-leeeeeze.
Also and parenthetically, you don't understand the mechanism of a direct-drive turntable. I think I mentioned this to you somewhere above this last post. Do some reading on this subject. The issue in direct-drive is not noise but designing a motor that is free of cogging at slow speed. (The DD motor has to turn at 33 rpm, whereas belt drive and idler drive motors turn much faster. This tends to make them noisier than DD, not quieter, but a little easier to mask the cogging effect.}
But the syntax of your post actually suggests you like direct-drive better than belt drive. (You start with your criticism of direct drive and then begin your discussion of belt drive with the phrase "next best", implying dd is better, which it actually is when done right, IMO.) |
Davide256: "What makes the finest turn tables is damping/filtering vibration at the micro level to prevent vibration reaching the arm and platter..." Isn't this "vibration at the micro level" a form of movement and doesn't movement consist of timing? So a turntable that takes care of damping/filtering vibration automatically make it the finest disregarding strict attention to speed issues? Now I know where those toy motors are coming from... Davide256: "You can consider direct drive the equivalent of attaching a vibrator directly to the platter... Next best is belt drive... the motor still vibrates but the belt provides isolation in power transfer." You're repeating the flawed notion that Lewm already objected to in one of the above posts. I just cannot fathom someone discussing about "the finest turntables" without thinking about speed accuracy or the importance of speed accuracy as if that's a dated issue. I don't know what else to say. It reminds me of a Chinese saying about a cowhide lantern...... _______ |
this is almost humorous, you folks are arguing about problems the older among us had to deal with in Dual and Phillips TT's of the 70's and 80's.
If speed of a TT is constantly off the musical pitches will be off. Since all speeds are off proportionately, harmonic structure will still be intact. If its badly off the spoken/sung word will sound distorted because we are sensitive to the cadence of speech. Trying to play an instrument along with this becomes silly because you have to mistune your instrument.
If the speed is variably off that becomes wow/flutter... thats musically unacceptable.
What makes the finest turn tables is damping/filtering vibration at the micro level to prevent vibration reaching the arm and platter that would superimpose on the stylus tracked vibration, distorting the electrical signal created in the cartridge and played back as sound in your system. As an example put a vibrator on your cheek and try to sing... thats what a badly isolated TT does even with perfect speed.
You can consider direct drive the equivalent of attaching a vibrator directly to the platter... Denon tried to sell a lot of these.
Next best is belt drive... the motor still vibrates but the belt provides isolation in power transfer. But a platter mounted on same sub chassis as motor still sees vibration transfer through the chassis. Rega follows this model.
Optimal is belt drive, suspension TT where platter and arm are on an independent subchassis... both are isolated.
Linn Sondek,the AR and Sota follow this model
And there are the exotic designs ( I believe I once saw something that floated the platter suspension in the equivalent of jello) |
Very well put, Learsfool. The importance of coherent rhythm can't be stressed enough. On a related note (and the subject of another thread), it is ironic that in spite of it's technically "superior" speed stability, digital recording technology can suffer from rhythmic blandness. It is not only rhythmic accuracy from one point in time to another that matters, but what happens in between; the motion moving away from one point in time and leading up to another. That is what gives music it's thrust and swagger. |
Thuchan wrote: He said...it doesn`t matter...I love the sound!
Oh my god... Voila ;-) Vbr, Sam |
D & S,
Welcome to California ;-)
-Sam
|
Please don't give up, Frogman! Let me try to continue your argument:
Emotional expression is of course very important in music. But let's take Frogman's example, a beautiful melody being played with no sense of time.
Rhythm and meter are the basic framework of all music - they are what make music intelligible to the listener. Once in a master class, a fellow hornist was playing the famous solo from the slow movement of the Tchaikovsky 5th Symphony (for those of you who do not care much for classical music, you may know the John Denver tune Annie's Song, which uses the same melody). This student was very wrapped up in her own emotions, and was too much in love with the admittedly gorgeous sound she was making, and there was absolutely no sense of time at all. Despite the emotional playing, the music simply made no sense - indeed, it would have been unrecognizable and unintelligible to anyone not familiar with what she was playing. The rest of us in the horn studio patiently waited for her to finish.
Then my teacher asked her - "What do you think I think about primarily when I play this solo in the orchestra?" The student replied "Oh, you're probably thinking about your wife, and how much you love her!" He of course replied "No, I am thinking - " and here he started chanting the subdivision of the beat, along with the comment above that rhythm and meter, and the sense of these things, are what make music intelligible to the listener, even if they are not conscious of this.
He also went on to add that no matter how expressively one plays, poor rhythm is the first thing that will get you eliminated at an audition, and this is very true, though poor intonation is a close second.
I am not arguing that one should play like a machine, however, far from it. But to be expressive with musical time, one must have an accurate sense of it first. One cannot learn to manipulate musical time expressively if one cannot give a sense of strict time. If there is no sense of meter underlying the solo, then there is no context for the listener to follow the expression. This is why just about all types of popular music have a drumbeat behind them - this gives the context or framework to the listener for everything else that is going on, even if they know nothing about music.
The student I described above was lost in her own little world - expressive as she was, her expression was only for her - there was no translation there for the listeners, even though we knew what she was attempting to convey! The sense of time is the framework the musician must set up so that he/she can be understood. This is why Frogman is arguing that this issue is so important, though I do not write as clearly and concisely as he, unfortunately. |
Dear Ct, Always glad when I can "clarify" something for you, but who can imagine 500 tonearms sitting on one LP? Now that takes some fantasizing. Thanks, Tim, for bringing up that very simple metaphor.
Downunder, if the battery in the Timeline is running low, at some point the laser will abruptly turn off completely, I would think. I think the laser operates like and LED which is like a diode; you need a threshold of energy to activate it. So when you go below that threshold - no light. In any event, I do not think waning battery life would affect its frequency. |
Ct, "Can someone technical explain to me what "5kg - cm" really means in laymans terms."
From the SP-10 Mk2A Operating Instructions:
"If 500 tonearms of 2 g. tracking force were placed on a record at the same time the turntable would still maintain each rated speed."
If this is correct, it does seem to offer a reasonable margin. ;-) |
Hi Thuchan,
I do understand that your system stands in Bavaria and it is located on-speed outside of Munich :-)
Also, I like following this attitude of "but sometimes fast driving"...out on the road! :-)
Always happy listening! |
Hello Ct057,
Two out of three...;-)... |
|
Heck, around these parts a nice looking plinth can get the juices flowing. :) Toneless beating in time is not the sum and substance ('heart and soul') of music, regardless of its capacity to motivate. There is no false dichotomy of one over the other (rhythm or melody). Now ... back to the turntable accuracy dance off. |
Dear Unoer,
my system does not stand in Munich - if you were thinking this direction :-)
I just made a test with the Timeline and the VPI SDS - and indeed it was running a little to fast when using another tonearm (in this case Micro Max 282 with Sussurro).
Slowing down with the SDS is just precision and fun !!!
BTW I also like slow food, slow life but sometimes fast driving :-)
best @ fun only |
Hi Lew - thx for putting my question in layman terms :^)
Syntax - Look forward to your impressiosn of the Sirius. I would be curious as well if you can find out who set the arm up for the owner. i.e. the manufacturer, the owner or a friend ?
Cheers |
Hello Thuchan,
Congratulations, self-disclosure is good for the soul!
BTW, there is absolutely nothing wrong about being a little slow and loving it...:-)...
Always Happy Listening!
Alan |
Jtimothya, I don't think you are serious (correct me if I'm wrong), but to elaborate on my point: a great drummer playing alone can get the juices flowing with a great groove. Now, imagine a (potentially) great melody played or sung with bad rhythm. The end result can be painful. |
I heard about an audiophile living in Munich who usually proudly presents his very rare and expensive vintage items, including high calibre turntables. During a listening session someone stated "the sound is so slow, maybe we should check the speed accuracy". The result was 30,.. also being not very stable.
Speed was corrected to 33,33 and in the end the audiophile resisted listening to the correct speed sound. He said, I am used to the slower mode, it doesn`t matter if anything is correct. I love the sound!
Oh my god...
Best and fun only |
How accurate is the Timeline with its flashing laser?
supposedly time-base accuracy of 2 parts per million
Has that been measured for its accuracy ?
what happens when the batteries start to run down?
|
"As I said in an earlier post, time and rhythm are where the heart and soul of music lie."
Nah. Rhythm without melody is heartless. :) |
" Musicians play things in certain keys and tempos for a reason" - Atmasphere
That's exactly right, and the point of my earlier comment. Deviation from the musicians' intent has a significant impact on the music. That's not to say that the music can't be enjoyed if there are small deviations, but there is no question that it's full impact can't be realized.
Atmasphere, I agree that speed stability affects sound staging. I also believe it affects perceived detail retrieval, and timbre. I use a straight
tracking arm (ET2), and I still hear improvements in staging when speed stability is good. When it is not, staging is not as defined and is slightly confused.
I think that in our attempt to arrive at a scientific explanation for all the perceived aspects of music playback, we overlook the very real possibility that there are many things that we don't yet fully understand; probably never will. As I said in an earlier post, time and rhythm are where the heart and soul of music lie. The subtleties of rhythm are extremely fine
and can be very elusive for the record/playback process. The relationship
between rhythm and timbre is likewise very important and difficult to understand. For example: experiments have been performed that show that the characteristic (individualistic) recorded tones produced by players on any given instrument are very difficult to tell apart if one removes the initial attack of a note, and listens only to the sound that happens after the attack. Speed instability alters the sound of the initial attack since the initial attack is connected to a point in time. With this in mind, it is not difficult to understand why speed instability can affect just about every aspect of sound. |
Atmasphere is quite correct about constant speed and soundstage.
There are many audible benefits with a turntable which does maintain constant unwavering speed which are unrelated to pitch.
With most turntables.......when the music becomes loud, and complex......the soundstage narrows and flattens, the transparency disappears and the sound becomes brittle.
This is caused by the auto modulation distortion of the soundwave in the time domain.
It is no different to a distortion in the amplitude of the soundwave which we simply would refuse to tolerate.
Those with tape decks have a better understanding of this phenomena and unfortunately........the majority of turntable listeners have not really experienced the liberation that accompanies constant speed control.
Once you do.......there's no going back:^) |
Dear Lew, If you keep quoting all kinds of prowerbs attributing them to Shakespeare there is of course the chance that you may be right sometimes. BTW if it is the case that love makes blind then probable other people were also capable to discovere this truth. Only for the so called intellectual property it is relevant who wrote what first.
Regards, |
