I should add to my last post.
No, the NVS does not blow away the MK3. I'm trying to remain neutral, there are already hot comments flying around on this topic and I don't understand why.
If a particular table is doing well for you, why take the effort to crush another brand? Something that another person may be enjoying and thinks is wonderful?
I'll state this, the MK3 is still my overall favorite turntable of all time, regardless.
Now that I've said that, remember the MK3 have not been manufactured in more than a quarter of a century and at least one part in it has no current replacement available.
If that parts fails and you cannot find used, the table is dead.
So in spite of my fondness of the MK3, it is expensive, difficult to obtain and requires a COMPLETE rebuild and (in my opinion) one of our specialty plinths to get the performance I'm speaking of.
Just putting things into perspective on both sides. |
It seems to me if the tt slows down momentarily, the laser spot would shrink, not lengthen.
Albert, I take all your points in support of the NVS, but the bottom line is what do you think of it in action? Does it blow away your SP10 Mk3? The laser line lengthens and shortens and the line progresses clockwise (indicating + speed error) in the test I did. We have checked multiple turntables. The MK3 did not show any error in any test. |
Lewm, I don't see anything wrong with my posting above and in general just discussion and nothing else ment by it.
I thought these forums were for such, to share and learn.
|
Sorry, I meant to address my remark in my last post to "Dev", not "Dover". |
Dear Dover, I think it was posts like your last one that got the NVS thread deleted. You have a perfect right to express your opinion, but I think we need to temper our remarks about specific products and manufacturers lest someone pull the plug on this thread, too. I hate that this is the case, and, believe me, I am on the side of free speech. |
If it were not for the fact that my neighbor, for whom I have done a lot of audio favors, owns a Timeline, I never would have been able to test my turntables with it. No way I would pay $400 to buy one. I was quite satisfied with the KAB strobe. That's just an honest statement of my position, right or wrong. It was mostly a morbid curiosity that drew me to it, like a moth to a flame. Now I'm done with it, since I am unlikely to purchase another turntable in my lifetime. (Well, maybe one more that I have in the back of my mind.) It won't sit down on the Lenco spindle, which is one of the large diameter types. Any ideas how to use it on a Lenco? Interestingly, the owner of the Timeline is in no rush to have it back, so it's just sitting here.
I guess I could have rationalized buying one on the premise that it would pretty much hold its value when I would have been ready to dump it. |
If the laser light stays in exactly the same place on the wall as the platter rotates but the "line" created by the laser beam gets longer, then it is at least possible that the tt is momentarily gaining speed above 33 rpm (assuming the flash of the laser is of constant duration, which is a fair assumption). But the fact that the light does not move left or right indicates that "average" speed is maintained. This is one explanation that comes to my mind; I have no idea what you are thinking, Albert and Henry. I would be interested to know.
It seems to me if the tt slows down momentarily, the laser spot would shrink, not lengthen.
Albert, I take all your points in support of the NVS, but the bottom line is what do you think of it in action? Does it blow away your SP10 Mk3? |
Dear Halcro: No doubt Timeline is a great tool for now. I think that the main subject around it is not only that we learn more about our each one TTs and its right set up but that today TT designers use the Timeline ( or similar tool. ) as a important part on its design and development of a TT.
That we can know that this or that TT has a " failure " about can't help enough, what can help to each one of us as customers is that today and future TT designs could come with the Timeline " certification ".
At the end that " certification " is or should be IMHO a TT's designer target not ours.
Btw, Halcro the stock MS TTs are not good enough about speed and speed stability, its motor controler are deficient about . Years ago in my unit and other units we have to make changes in there to improve this TT main desirable characteristic. IMHO and with today standards MS units are only an average ones.
Anyway, Timeline is here to stay: good.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Halcro, I assumed the same thing you did and heard the result as reduced dynamics and slurring. Funny you detected the same phenomenon. I agree, Ron has a winner, http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue58/awards2011.htm Scroll almost to the bottom. I gave Ron Product of The Year for the Timeline. I'm pretty sure I stirred up some of this when I began posting results of my own tests last year. The Timeline may not be a "perfect" product but it sure reveals errors that a printed disc and strobe miss. I would go so far as to suggest the Timeline supports things we hear and previously could not prove. |
I sent the amateurish YouTube video of my TT-101 with the Timeline to Ron Sutherland who was so impressed....he said he was going to include a link on his new web site.
Ahhh....fame at last :^) |
Hi Albert,
I have seen exactly that phenomenon with the Timeline on the Raven AC-2 driven by a slipping thread.
I know exactly what is happening and it is borne out by the laser mark AND the sound at the very same time.
The Timeline is its own reward :^) |
Halcro - welcome back. Australian politics has been very entertaining of late. Are you putting your hat in for Foreign Minister Ha ha.....thanks Dover. I don't think the Foreign Minister NOR Prime Minister will somehow pass the Timeline test??! Really looking forward to your tests with the Timeline? |
Albert
I'm guessing either the laser mark with the platter having slowed would take longer to traverse a section of wall (unlikely to have slowed enough to make a visible difference IMHO) or perhaps a high frequency flutter is causing the mark to appear longer.... very interesting anyway.
Dover
I should add that I have so far only used belt drive and a Garrad idler(which to me sounds less speed stable than my belt drive...something wrong with it???).
I'm starting to buy the argument for dd though so I may well travel down that path soon. |
Dover, Good post, I agree there are many, many variables in this game of making a turntable, arm and cartridge right. The other variable is personal taste. I certainly have my prejudices. Lespier
I'm more interested in how some touted belt drives(SME, Basis, Verdier, Micro Seiki etc) have fared when tested with the Timeline.
Perhaps the silence is telling us something.
We had some very interesting things show up with our Timeline tests. I've read all the arguments about the Timeline only showing "that" one single revolution, and not what happens to the speed in between. I get it, but if the laser is moving steadily along the wall in one direction and consistently it seems obvious that speed variation is a fact. An even more bizarre thing happened some weeks ago during a test with the laser splashing on a wall about 18 feet away. Anyone interested in duplicating what we did would be welcome. Just play an LP with fairly benign (soft) passage and note the laser position on the wall. As the needle begins to enter the more difficult and complex musical passages note not only the position of the laser but it's actual "length" as it paints the light. It finally occurred to us after some time what (I think) was happening. Would love to read reports from others including your conclusion if you do this experiment. |
Halcro - welcome back. Australian politics has been very entertaining of late. Are you putting your hat in for Foreign Minister ? |
Lespier,
I run the Final Audio Parthenon ( heavy patter/thread drive/AC motor with reconstructed sine/cosine wave power supply ). Just waiting for the 1st shipment of Timelines to arrive in New Zealand. I'm not losing any sleep, my references for speed accuracy -KAB,Test Record, solo piano stability of notes, and using Digital Sources as a comparison are fairly comprehensive. Oh and forgot I have Technics SP10 Mk3 for comparison as well ( Still not losing sleep ). |
Perhaps the silence is telling us something It may well be? Whilst we have heard anecdotal evidence that some belt-drive turntables......for instance the big Micro Seikis....can maintain consistent accurate speed according to the Timeline.......I have never seen any visual evidence (via YouTube?) of this? If anyone can post a clip of ANY belt-drive TT able to do this with cartridge playing and not playing......it would put to bed any doubts? |
Albert - I love more new tt's coming to the market. It just seems the hyperbole doesn't match the performance. In this case the claims made for energy dissipation in the design seemed at odds with using wooden arms and armboards. I'm not sure stainless is that great either, but as you will have experienced most arms have resonances and different armboard materials will sound different and either add to or subtract complementary resonances.
Most often ignored in these forums is that the turntable/arm/cartridge form one system and ideally the 3 components must have a common purpose in structural design - either dissipate energy or sink it to ground. Turntable, Cartridge or tonearm comparisons should always be referenced or qualified by the other 2 components but seldom are.
Back to the NVS, the optimum arm board material will vary depending on the material used in the arm/arm mount and the material used in the NVS frame to ensure minimal energy is reflected back to the cartridge/record interface at each junction. |
Glad to see this thread revived.
I too was dissapointed when the NVS thread was pulled but here I'm more interested in how some touted belt drives(SME, Basis, Verdier, Micro Seiki etc)have fared when tested with the timeline.
Perhaps the silence is telling us something. |
Dover,
In all fairness the stainless steel arm board seems a logical upgrade. I think the hugely (is that a word?) larger format of the new NVS required a more rigid arm board material.
The original NVS could not accept 12" arms, at least not SME or other that require a large footprint.
Changing the "format' of the tonearm mount required the factory to rethink the mounting material to something more rigid than wood.
I'm not criticizing your post, the change was indeed made by the NVS people. I'm just saying that sometimes a redesign to accommodate a new arm length requires a rethink of material design to maintain stability. |
Who ever suggested the NVS was better than any other tt was just full of hype, just more marketing blah! blah!
What I can't figure out is how does a table that list for $25k just a short while ago then jump up to $40 and now $45 or what ever.
That new wooden shipping crate must have added some serious sonics, possibly no more bent platter bearing :-)
Who in thier right mind designs and manufactures a table costing this much and then ships it with the platter attached, makes no sence.
I may have missed but has there been any mention of any owners using the TimeLine on it and the results.
Albert P, we know you have one so what are the results. |
After all the hoopla about the NVS, that was deleted, this is the update from Albert Porter, who is an authorised seller.
"Perhaps you forgot, that table was the one damaged in shipping. So in addition to the inferior wooden arm boards, it's bearing was not functioning 100%. Pretty easy for the new one to defeat it."
Isn't it amazing, that after all the proprietory study into energy control, better than any other tt made, they suddenly realise the wooden arm board is not a good idea. Makes you wonder. |
Hi Dev
I have been trying to send you an email to solicit some advice from you on MBL 101 speakers and amps given your extensive posts on this topic, but I am having trouble with my audiogon account. Audiogon is looking into it Can you email me at dhankhar.ajay@yahoo.com so I can get your advice on a few questions? i would really appreciate it
thanks a lot
ajay |
Sorry about the price quote on the Timeline - I got it from http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue43/sutherland_timeline.htm
No one talked about anything being the gold standard. It's my approach, and the one I am comfortable with - and confirmed by ear, by switching between a test CD and a test LP using the same test tone at the same reference output level (after the latter having been set by measuring output voltage and adjusting the DAC's output - a Berkeley Alpha in this case). In the end, if it measures the same and sounds the same, it's highly likely the approach is sound.
But others can doubt it and the accuracy of the test tone all they want. |
Ack, I think your approach is a good one. Find independent ways to measure tt speed and compare them. But I think it is "dangerous" in the logic sense to assume that your particular alternative method is the gold standard. It's more data of a different sort, but we don't know whether it's superior to other methods. Timeline is $400, not $900, BTW. The price is high at $400 but would be truly ridiculous at $900.
Hiho, Super Bowl is over, stuffed myself on chili and beer and corn bread. The lowly Redskins (my local team) beat the new SB Champs twice this year. Strange, indeed. |
Ack
Are you confident the test record is accurate to 1000 Hz. The test record could have been cut wrong from the beginning. How do we know the lathe was correct? |
Stop all these turntable tests, for now, on speed accuracy and enjoy the Super Bowl! Enjoy the food!
_______
|
The KAB strobe disc is an approximation - a good one, though - and that can be easily proven... I place it on top of a test record, lower the cartridge (to include stylus drag) then set the speed with it.
Then, using a very accurate voltage and frequency meter like a Fluke, I put on a 1kHz tone on the CD player and measure the frequency - dead on 1kHz; this measures the instrument's accuracy. Switch back to the test LP with a 1kHz tone at 33.33rpm and the meter shows (naturally) some variations of about 1/1000, but clearly the center frequency isn't 1000 Hz. I usually have to lower the speed (in this case a VPI SDS).
Then I switch the speed to 45rpm and the meter should now read 1350Hz - yeap it does. The KAB shows I am going slow, but I know my speed is accurate.
I think the Timeline would be just as accurate, but why spend $900 when I can just measure a test frequency. |
Got a Brinkmann Bardo in to test drive and upon first listen the pitch of the piano was off, attacks were not sharp, so checking the speed with the Timeline showed it running a tad slow. It's easy to adjust and within 3 minutes had it spot on. This is how a turntable should be, doesn't seem that hard to get it right.
(Dealer disclaimer but not a dealer for Brinkmann..........yet!) |
FWIW, the KAB device uses (1) a much larger than usual diameter of strobe disc, which should enhance its accuracy, and (2) a battery-powered strobe which cannot be affected by variations in AC line frequency. |
Atmasphere - I think you are too optimistic on the quality of the US power supply. The US grid is split into 4 quadrants and the supply agreements in place with the power providers have delivery standards etc, but there are NO standards in the agreements on frequency stability. As you will know frequency will vary with load fluctuations on the grid. I have seen figures of 60hz with an accuracy of 5%. This issue is currently being investigated. Frequency variation does occur but happens over a period of hours rather than seconds, at least, that's what they teach you in school. You may well be right- every time I have checked the speed with a strobe, its spot on, but that probably does not mean a lot as the strobe relies on the line frequency. So all it does say is that the 'table is spot-on relative to the frequency on the AC line. The Speed-Nic thingy says its OK, but IME it does not have a lot of resolution... |
Dear Dev: Seems to me that a high cost not only in a TT bearing has to see not only with its design and tolerance level but with the quantity you ordered and obviously marketing.
If that same item is builded in 10,000 pzs. instead 50 you will see the big big difference in price.
During our " long " tonearm design time we learnedd many things about and if you can and with some items/parts sometimes is better to build it at home by your self.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
I have to say, this thread has been a good learning experience for me. Other than changing my phono cartridge now and then and doing basic maintainence on my tt, such as belt change and bearing lube, I have just listened to my records on occasion. Over the years I set my platter speed by the supplied strobodisc and flourescent light and called it good. But over this past month here is what I have learned. First, I learned that my speed was low by a couple of percent. I was able to dial in my speed exact by using the 3150Hz test tone on an old test record that I had and the iPhone app. That app is a very useful tool. Interestingly, with the speed dialed in dead on now, the strobodisc still shows a stable pattern. So the strobodisc/flourescent light method is not very accurate, ie. >2%. Second, not only has the rhythm and timing of the music changed, but the bass is tighter, the attack stronger. I noticed this playing a couple of old records that I have listened to many times over the years. The timing was so different from what I was used to that I had to go back and double check the speed setting again. Now I have to listen to all of my records all over again at the correct speed. Good thing I am still young. I conclude based on what I have learned that speed setting is as at least as important as speed control. In fact, I am wondering now if the differences heard with respect to rhythm and timing are really based on the speed setting of a tt more than Wow and Flutter- ie. if Wow and Flutter are less than 0.03% or so. |
Atmasphere - I think you are too optimistic on the quality of the US power supply. The US grid is split into 4 quadrants and the supply agreements in place with the power providers have delivery standards etc, but there are NO standards in the agreements on frequency stability. As you will know frequency will vary with load fluctuations on the grid. I have seen figures of 60hz with an accuracy of 5%. This issue is currently being investigated. |
Lrsky/Lewm - my money on an 80's demonstration by Magnepan would be an Oracle Delphi tt with the Magnepan unipivot tonearm, this was a popular combo of that era in the US if you weren't in the Linn/Sota camp. |
Ralph, By all accounts, a really accurate subdivision of the phases plus really accurate control of voltage and frequency can render a major noise and vibration reduction in 3-phase AC synchronous motors, but my disclaimer is I don't know nuthin'. I am mostly quoting the teachings of Mark Kelly. |
Lewm,
Been thinking about your 'what turntable' question...
It may have been an Oracle...it's been a long time...sorry.
The tables of note then were, as I said, Linn, SOTA, Oracle...no doubt a few others, but they were, in my little part of the country the bigger names.
Larry |
Dertonarm
Fascinating and of course your table would be something to experience even though I could never afford it along with associated components.
Have you now or are you planning a web site for your products? |
However, he did also comment that with a true 3-phase AC synchronous motor controller (so you can throw away the phase-splitting capacitor), the Papst would have been MUCH quieter and therefore might outperform the Thorens motor in all other respects. So, Ralph, have you ever used such a motor controller with your Atmasphere [sic] 208 turntable? Hi Lew, If the motor was noisy then its likely that there was some sort of defect. All I have ever heard from them is a hiss related to the air moving around the rotor. In my application it is isometrically mounted, so noise simply isn't an issue. What I have heard about the controllers is they are used to get greater stability than the AC line offers, but I am dubious about that- the AC line is quite stable! |
Hi Dev, the bi-planar air bearing for my turntable in the 1990s was only about half the cost of this new one. But this new one has much tighter tolerances and will do the same job with 1/3 the air volume of the former.
In all engineering the cost/performance ratio becomes a steep curve towards the most tight tolerances, as the manufacturing effort and production reject rate rises in a much higher rate than just proportional.
As said before - there are a lot of good quality bearings out there for a fraction of the costs, suitable to provide very good bearing for a high end turntable.
The turntable using this bearing ( plus the USD3500 dental/medical grade compressor needed to run it ) won't ( can't ...) be a commercial product anyway.
Cheers,
D. |
Lewm: "no need for me to know anything more than what I have learned by casual reading." That's very zen. I need to do that myself. Bill Belichick has a sign at his team facility that says "Ignore the noise." Good advice. _______ |
Dev, Just read what Dertonearm is asking that bearing to do. (Did you take note of the 110-lb platter?) Then imagine the special tooling and labor required to make the bearing in very small numbers. Then you will understand the cost. Based on typical ratio of parts cost to retail price in the audio business, DT's turntable will have to cost around $70K, just to justify his use of that bearing.
Hiho, I am actually glad I did not know all those details about Papst. I have enough useless information cluttering up my mind already. Sherlock Holmes told Watson that the reason he did not know about Copernicus (or some other well known related body of knowledge) was that he had otherwise to keep in mind the appearance of the ashes and the distinct odors associated with 170 different kinds of pipe tobacco, in order to do his sleuthing. I have never owned a tt with a Papst motor, and I don't aspire to, so no need for me to know anything more than what I have learned by casual reading.
I and several others have been waiting for nearly 2 years for Mark Kelly's motor controller for Garrard and Lenco. I am not holding my breath. This is not to say that Mark is not a completely honorable and brilliant guy; he just has a lot on his plate to distract him. It will be worth the wait, I am sure, once it is done. |
Hi Dertonarm, how in the heck can a bearing for a table cost so much? |
Dear Thuchan, I just this past month ordered the bearings for my new turntable design and the costs are - with a limited edition of 12 units for 2012 and 2013 - USD14,800 + 19% VAT for the bearing alone (no joke - for each single bearing).
But then this bearing is a custom-made bi-planar air bearing of outstanding precision, capable to lift and spin a 110 lbs platter with ease.
If one want to go all the way it get's expensive.
But there are many good standard bearings out there, for far less money and of high quality.
Cheers,
D. |
Dear Lewm,
Yes it is Exactly as you described. Modern manufacturers have better toolings and usually better preconditions but most do not make proper usage of it. Continuum is a positive exception. Nowadays high quality bearings seem to be too expensive which means we are offered more and more crap.
Best & fun only |
Atmasphere: "Were it not for the motor in the 208, I'm not sure I would even be messing with belt-drive at all." I share that sentiment. Lewm: " I actually thought that the term "Papst" (Pabst?) refers to a particular motor configuration, patented or invented by someone named Papst, not to a company that makes a wide variety of different kinds of motor." I am surprised that you did not know Papst is a company that made motors. Yes, it's Papst with the P. and the same Papst model is used inside the Empire 208, Fairchild 412, various Rek-O-Kut belt-drive and idler-drive tables such as K33H and L33H. Different motor models are used in Thorens 124 as replacement, smaller motor in the Empire 598, etc... It's also possible the Audio Note TT3 three-motor turntable uses Papst motors. http://www.audionote.co.uk/products/analogue/tt-3_01.shtml#_____ |
I found a review posted by 'grimagog'? for a Mark Kelly controller applied to a Papst 3-phase motor. His claim was that having the ability to "tune" the current via the conroller leads to a quieter motor and (back on topic) improved speed stability.
Mark Kelly posts over at the DIYaudio forum occasionally and appears to be extremely motor-knowledgable. Jim Hagerman was toying with the idea of a new 3-phase motor controller as well.
I've got to believe that a multi-phase AC motor should be easier to design for speed stability compared to a 2-phase or single phase motor. More continuity of pulse per revolution, for sure. Certainly much of heavy industrial motors are 3-phase, so I think the math is pretty well-understood. But since most of us live where the power coming in over the wires is not 3-phase, some kind of controller is needed.
The Papst motors discussed above use a 4uF cap to provide the appropriate phase delay, to "trick" the motor into sync. I wonder if atmasphere has any tricks for improving the motor performance on his tables?
I've had good success with some of those grand old tables by micro-polishing the bearing balls, and improving the sleeve's ability to retain oil via fine cross-hatching at 1500 grit. The Rabco tables were interesting in that they had a spiral groove to "pump" oil back up the sleeve to keep a nice continuous lubrication film. With the right lube viscosity, these things would spin for several minutes down from 78rpm. I think the Empires were the same way.
So a nice even motor and nearly frictionless bearing = speed stability? (carefully avoiding the drive question here) |
I found a website where the owner installed a Papst motor in his Thorens TD124 and compared its performance to that of the turntable with its original motor. He liked the musical "drive" with the Papst but preferred the Thorens motor for its lower noise floor. However, he did also comment that with a true 3-phase AC synchronous motor controller (so you can throw away the phase-splitting capacitor), the Papst would have been MUCH quieter and therefore might outperform the Thorens motor in all other respects. So, Ralph, have you ever used such a motor controller with your Atmasphere 208 turntable?
I hope this is only slightly OT. :<) |
Hi Lewm. Papst made a huge variety of motors. I think the company still exists and now makes industrial fans. I haven't seen the external rotor type being implemented for dd nor do I think it would be a good idea to try. They did make a number of dedicated dd motors though . The SOTA turntables (as well as many other brands in the 80's & 90's) used a papst dc 'pancake' motor up to series iii . I did have a star iii as well and now now use the platter, bearing and vacuum pump in a DIY tt but with a different motor. |
Pabst is indeed a company name and does not refer to a type of motor. The AC motor in our 208 is indeed the eddy current AC model and was also used by Rek-O-Kut and a variety of tape machines. With its external rotor, its flywheel effect is prodigious! As good as it is, IMO/IME their servo DC motors left much to be desired. Were it not for the motor in the 208, I'm not sure I would even be messing with belt-drive at all. |
