Dear DT, Adjusting azimuth is not the best way to deal with channel imbalance that you describe in your example. Azimuth has very little effect on channel balance. Azimuth affects crosstalk, of the L channel signal into the R channel and vice-versa. This is not the same as channel balance. To prove this to myself, I once did the experiment with my Triplanar. Extreme azimuth change, from one side to the other, effected at most a 1db change in channel balance (going from extreme right bias to extreme left bias), and in doing so resulted in azimuth that was entirely unacceptable in any other way. (Stylus way over on its side, so signal was distorted and stylus wear would be an issue, and crosstalk was way off.) |
Rockitman, all you need is an oscillating pad and a µV meter - that's it.
The technical straight way to determine coil output independent from stylus position/mounting position.
This way you get the raw coil response - totally independent of any position of the polished area to a groove.
I am sure that the "usual suspects" here on Audiogon did - of course ... - already knew it......
As always,
D. |
Der,
what' the best/easiest way (tools) to determine (test) for balanced voltage output of the cart coils ? |
Dear Lewm, you are right. No one - including me ..;-) ... - can judge by eyeside whether a given stylus' polished contact areas are correctly aligned on the cantilever.
This was a great issue in the1980s with most all "audiophile" cartridges of the day. We had to deal with that.
Halcro has indeed raised a VERY important point here:
If we can adjust azimuth and do indeed use that adjustment, we may very well end up in the woods.
Now what if one mount a new cartridge and realizes that the sound is much more dominant towards the left channel?
Will you adjust azimuth ?
Instantly ?
Just a bit - and ... Yes! .... now the sound is more balanced!
Maybe there is a bit more distortion on the left channel in peaks now - but that can be fixed with antiskating set accordingly - right ?
That is a normal scenario.
But what, if the cartridge's stylus was perfectly vertical in the first.
It was just that the two coils had quite some difference in their output.
The apparent "cure" thus led to the wrong path and ultimately to damaged groove and increased disproportional wear on the stylus.
Before we use any prospective azimuth adjustment I for one would make absolutely sure first what is the output of each coil - that has to be determined WITHOUT a groove of course.
When I know the output of both coils, then I have a parameter to build upon and can judge a disbalance in the stereo output on a solid foundation.
However - given today's technique and the fact that no one has to deal with this problem in low-budget and DJ-cartridges - I still see NO POINT in accepting on a multi-hundred (thousand..) cartridge a stylus with less than perfect orientation.
Azimuth alignment should not be necessary.
If applied however, the usershould first determine the exact output of the two coils to have a sure basis. |
Sorry, should have written "including he", not "including him" in the second paragraph above. |
Someone somewhere wrote of the DaVinci that lack of azimuth adjustment made for a simplified construction and in part could account for the perceived superb sound quality. And I think there may be some truth in that. The add-on mechanisms required to allow for azimuth adjustment, different as they are among different expensive tonearms, probably do introduce some measure of added distortion. These things are always a trade-off, and I would not kick a DaVinci out of my house on the basis that it lacked azimuth adjustment.
On the other hand, I have to disagree with Dertonearm. None of us, including him, can "examine" a cartridge and thereby determine whether it came from the factory with perfect azimuth alignment, mostly because the "money" is where we cannot see it, up inside the cartridge body or within the magnet structure for cartridges that do not have a "body" per se. Perfect azimuth is NOT necessarily determined by observing whether the stylus is perfectly perpendicular to the plane of the headshell; it is merely a good start in that direction. Nor do I think that most manufacturers' quality control is so good that we can expect azimuth perfection in proportion to the dollars (or Euros) spent on the cartridge. That's just wishful thinking, and if we return all cartridges that are not perfect in that parameter, most manufacturers would go broke or change businesses.
If I understand Halcro correctly, he is implying that having the capacity to adjust azimuth is actually a disadvantage, because with such tonearms there is the equal possibility that the headshell will not be plane parallel to the LP surface on any given day, just by random chance and due to limited visual acuity, even when the mounting is perfectly done. So it follows if the tonearm has provision for azimuth adjustment, one is almost obligated to determine correct azimuth and adjust for it. He may have something there. |
We can go for the new Da-Vinci Master's Reference Tonearm "Virtu" incl. new azimuth adjustment. Oh, we have and optional SME adapter. Cheers ! |
Dertonarm, yes I'm well aware of that so what are the other sites with these items for sale then.
I think the comment was more of a snide remark by In_shore |
Dear Rockitman: +++++ " Most owners ask us about adjustment. To all we say: add the cartridge and listen the music, then immediately you understand, why we omit div. adjustment tools.
This tone arm is built to bring all the musicality of your LPs! " ++++
of course, Da Vinci distortions named: " musicality!!!!
No sense at all.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
^^^ My experiences mirror yours Wrm57. I have two A90's and a Shelter Harmony. Both the Shelter and the A90 I am currently using required a bit of azimuth correction based on the matching of the crosstalk between both channels with the Foz. I would never buy an arm that did not allow for Azimuth...wait, I did once before...It was the Kenner Close & Play I owned as a child. :-) |
Let me follow the logic of the argument that azimuth adjustment is unnecessary in high-priced cartridges. So anyone who actually uses a Fozgometer or other measurement device and finds it necessary to adjust azimuth in order to optimize readings either has a bad cartridge (i.e., skewed stylus or mismatched output) or a turntable that's out of level? Sorry, but that's not my experience. I have several high-end cartridges, including an A90 that the designer himself examined and declared to be a "perfect example," and all have benefited from azimuth adjustments on a Phantom II (with a perfectly level platter), both in Fozgometer readings and sonics. I always begin installation of a cartridge at the visibly horizontal using a couple of different gridded acrylic blocks (including the one included in the UNI-Pro) yet find I need to adjust a tiny bit from there. I must be one unlucky dude to get so many dog cartridges.
On the other had, I also have a current high-end SPU that sounds much better adjusted to be visibly horizontal than when I optimize its azimuth with the Foz, so I'm by no means saying that device is infallible. But I am glad I'm able to adjust azimuth, nonetheless.
|
Dear Dertonarm: No, it is not because you choosed de Davinci. In the past I posted that the azymuth and anti-skate tonearm control are two tonearm characteristics that every tonearm has to have and that the Grandezza does not has by design.
So, it is not for you.
In the other side, how can you be sure that the cartridge stylus is dead on 90° and not 89.9°-90.1° by sight? ( I " admire " In_shore because he can!!! ): you need to mount it an during playback set-up decide about and if you think that the stylus is off how can you assure to the seller that's off for he can change it with out any charge ( shipping included. )?. Some times different VTA/SRA positions needs different azymuth position too, for many reasons.
I " admire " your " chameleon " attitude about when you accept off-center LPs, non-flat LPs, high output impedance amps, non-perfect TT and everything in audio items that are not perfect. Why do you accept everything else but that no-sense perfect stylus azymuth? and what about the anti-skate device: now you think that the AS is " obsolete " and the cartridge does not need it during playback? so is there nothing to compensate about those playback forces?
IMHO we are living in a non-perfect audio world where we need some " tools " that help with those non-perfect audio items: well antiskate and azymuth tonearm controlers are part of those " tools ".
Halcro said that he has no problem with a cartridge in the Grandezza but with the same cartridge in the Continnum he has azymuth problem, this make no sense to me either because a tonearm azymuth control is used only when it need it and when not the tonearm is dead on.
Well, to dream in a perfect audio world is only a dream and maybe at its best a big hope. Returning to our real non-perfect audio world IMHO we need all those " tools ", that's why exist third party devices as tonearm/cartridge protractors and several ones.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
OP: Go with a Raven, Tri-planar or a Graham. |
is da vinci serious ? when they say:
Adjustable on this tone arm is:
a magnetical dumping & the VT-Adjustment
This tone arm hasnt antiscating adjustment
This tone arm hasnt azimuth adjustment
Most owners ask us about adjustment. To all we say: add the cartridge and listen the music, then immediately you understand, why we omit div. adjustment tools.
This tone arm is built to bring all the musicality of your LPs!
you would think with spending $10K on a tonearm, they could get the english right. I find it laughable there is no azimuth or anti-skate adjustment. Da Vinci over-priced ? Perhaps not in the world of boutique tables and arms...they certainly are to me. I can think of quite a few tonearms that offer complete adjustability and even on the fly in some cases for azimuth. Da Vinci is off my list...lol Every cart can benefit from azimuth adjustment...perhaps not all if your lucky. Shame on Da Vinci for not offering this critical adjustment option |
Well, Audiogon isn't the only web-platform for used audio components ..... |
In_shore,
you said;
"I see two Raven arm for sale and not selling, lots of looks but no sale, used Raven tables same thing it seems."
I just viewed the adds and did not see these arms you speak of and one out of only the two tables shows sold.
Seems contradict your statement made! |
I agree with Dertonearm,I always carefully examine the cartridge before walking out of the store, there exists expensive mutt's that quality control missed.
Luna, I would be thinking top dollar resale value on the whole package at this stage , the DaVinci would be my top choice.
I see two Raven arm for sale and not selling, lots of looks but no sale, used Raven tables same thing it seems.
For sure spending extra money on audio items does not always translate into better performance no matter what you do. |
Dear Kipdent, on the price level we are usually talking about in high-end audio NO customer should accept a cartridge with anything less than a perfect 90° orientated stylus.
On this premise azimuth adjustment in the tonearm is indeed obsolete.
If a customer requests azimuth adjustment to compensate lousy quality control by the manufacturer of a given cartridge, that is another story.
One should however take azimuth adjustment VERY cautious, as ever so often it is NOT a misplaced stylus which is compensated, but differences in output between the two channels.
This is ground full of trap-holes here.
As for Fozgometer and similar products - they do find their buyers and many feel comfortable with them.
Fine.
I for one expect - as a conditio sine qua non in priori - that a cartridge I buy features a dead on 90° stylus.
Would you accept track and rake errors in your new car's axle beam ??
Can't imagine that.
Likewise I see no point to accept a manufacturer misplaced stylus in the first. |
I don't want to enter the debate here about the merits of either tonearm mentioned by the original poster, but I am surprised to read that there is a consensus shared in this thread that azimuth adjustment is apparently a completely perfunctory and unnecessary feature of tonearms. So am I to understand from this that adjusting cartridge azimuth is never needed because all manufacturers ensure cartridge azimuth is perfect at the factory?
I guess all these third-party devices like the Fozgometer and the new Soundsmith Cartright product are redundant and not needed. I, for one, am relieved to learn this! |
I have a friend who owns both the TW tonearm and the DaVinci on a TW table
He likes the TW arm a lot, however the DaVinci in his words is in a higher level. At the higher price level, one would hope that is the case. |
Dear D,
I agree with you entirely.
I have rarely had a problem with the azimuth of cartridges when used on arms without azimuth adjustment.
However on the two arms where I DO have azimuth adjustment........the Copperhead and the Micro Seiki MA-505......I have to battle with it.
Particularly on the MA-505.
The DaVinci is virtually assured to be spot-on with azimuth....unless your cartridge is a 'dog'....as Dertonarm says :^) |
Dear Halcro, Raul had to favor the Raven by all means.
Why ?
Simply because I favored the DaVinci ....
It always works this way.
I for one would NEVER accept a cartridge which needs azimuth adjustment.
Cheers,
D. |
Raul,
Have you even heard the Raven 10.5 tonearm?
If not?........how is it possible for you recommend this arm?
Are you just trusting that it is better than the DaVinci? |
...TT designer that want to design a tonearm for at least take in count an arm board that match the tonearm build material resonances to avoid adding more. This designer knew perfectly the tonearm behavior about so he can help in better way with his tonearm design that with a different tonearms where he almost know nothing Not true. Some (not all) always think, when a "Designer" does something, it is automatically prefect, well done and a lot of brain is inside. I think, this is a master mistake in audio today. Every new "Design" gets its merits, some don't hesitate, to name it a "great" design when a piece of wood for 10K is offered, but each his own... Till today there is no perfect solution to " one for all " Not true. But again, each his own, when someone has no technical knowledge or fixes his view on the wrong technical issues, well, then nothing will be ever done right. Sometimes electronics can show the differences, sometimes not, sometimes the listener can understand what he hears, sometimes not...it is not a religion, but of course are some design existing, which have some better solutions. |
Dear Luna: If I remember time ago you have experienced the help of azymuth setting/changes, so you already know its importance level to use it when is need it.
Your call.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear D:Please stop to say " stupid " things about. Btw, SME is not a " perfect " tonearm in the same way that there are no perfect cartridges and of course no perfect LPs and even no perfect cartridge set up by any one.
In the other side a TT designer that want to design a tonearm for at least take in count an arm board that match the tonearm build material resonances to avoid adding more. This designer knew perfectly the tonearm behavior about so he can help in better way with his tonearm design that with a different tonearms where he almost know nothing. Till today there is no perfect solution to " one for all ".
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
The tonearm designed to matched the turntable ....?
Serious ?
If a cartridge has a misplaced stylus - i.e. the need for azimuth alignment to compensate that - give it back to the dealer for full refund or exchange.
Every US$80 DJ-cartridge is dead on 90° perfect azimuth.
You shouldn't ask for less from any cartridge costing any multiple.
There is good reason why some very respective tonearms out there - and some since 30 years .. SME V - do not feature an azimuth alignment option.
Why compensate something you should never accept in the first ? |
Dear Luna: Independent that makes sense to match Raven TT ( I assume you own Raven TT and even if you did not. ) ) with Raven tonearm because Raven designers took in count this match " necessity " a tonearm main target is to give the right answers on what any cartridge could ask for.
Cartridge designs are not perfect and needs carefully set up parameters, between these parameters is the azymuth critical one that with the Raven you can change it as the cartridge needs but you can't do this in the Grandezza.
Now, if you don't care to much on what the cartridge set-up needs then you can choose any of two but if you care that your cartridge on this critical parameter set-up be on target then the 10.5 is IMHO the " road " to go.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R.
Here stated that no-azymuth in the DaVinci:
http://www.da-vinci-audio.com/dvapdf/products/phono/brochure/Grand%20Reference%20tone%20arm%20Grandezza.pdf |
If you have the choice and if you are looking for value ( especially in the "unlikely event" that you may eventually want to sell the tonearm one day ..) AND performance I would recommend going for the DaVinci Grandezza (10" or 12" if possible).
The DaVinci will be a future classic - for design and performance and is THE single component which has put DaVinci on the map. |
