Why is science just a starting point and not an end point?

Prof-
FWIW, I never misunderstand what you write. In this case I was attempting to open your mind a little & improve the performance of your audio system at the same time.

Thank you, but I prefer to allocate my money toward things that actually are likely to alter/improve the sound. There is no plausible reason it would change the sound, or any good evidence it does.

I get that you are trying to help, and no doubt now have the impression "Well, what a closed mind!"

But...Do you do everything anyone ever suggests you try? For your audio system, health, whatever? Or do you employ some critical thinking to sift where your time, money and energy are better spent?   That's all I'm doing.

But...Do you do everything anyone ever suggests you try? For your audio system, health, whatever? Or do you employ some critical thinking to sift where your time, money and energy are better spent? That’s all I’m doing.

It is a perfectly rational attitude for yourself...Congratulation!

But why imposing your scientism ascetic attitude to ALL here....

Because in an audio forum criticising ANY out of the norm experience and experiments if not blind tested first is no more rational.... It is a crusade...

By the way a schumann generators cost 10 bucks ....to experiment with it do not cause great lost...

And a shungite plate is also very low cost...

And i never bought ANYTHING over few bucks....

I enjoy a S.Q./ cost ratio out very high....Only basic science or experiment with some device which others claim to be useful: schuman generators or Helmhotlz devices, or minerals like Herkimer diamond and shungite... Or my own method to control vibrations with springs and other materials at peanuts cost....Great success...Peanuts costs....




Science is not a crusade against : God, astrology, homeopathy, magic, or barefootwalking and religion...Dawkins is no more useful than Randi....When science is a crusade it begin to mimic an ideology and transhumanism irrational faith and idolatry is not too far...

Science is a method of inquiring mind linked to experiments, not an ideology to be used in crusade with the blindtesting obsession....Science is really NOT a religion or a cult....For example science is not in any way linked to the cult of atheism or to the blind testing obsession in audio....

Like famously say Groucho Marx , keep a rabbit feet in your pocket to remind you of the necessary added healthy creative irrationality in your life but to remind you also of the unavoidable unhealthy "irrationality" in any human life....

Irrationality like reason come ALWAYS in 2 flavors...The right posology is a balance between the 2 flavors...

When there is no balance, reason mimic irrationality, and irrationality mimic reason...

To improve i recommend reading Lao-Tse, and Goethe....After that Ernst Cassirer a friend of Einstein....

       What, "prof" (snort of derision) posted and my first response, to this thread:

     "So we wee that tired old refrain from some audiophiles "Science has been wrong before you know!" and "science doesn't know everything!"
     "It's the same refrain used by every crackpot theory in the world.
Ask yourself: When science has been corrected: how was it corrected?"
     "You don't get to say "I'm justified in believing something that contradicts or isn't validated by current science...because MAYBE science is wrong and we'll discover I'm right."   Literally any nonsense idea would fly under such conditions."

     Referring back to my first response to this thread, in which I challenged their knowledge of the sciences (07-04-2021 3:20am), in light of the many changes, this past century, I stated:

     "It's not so much that Science has been proven, "wrong", but: that it's moved on, in so many areas."

                              Their first deflection:

 'rodman99999,

"For one NOT to be current, on what's been going on; as regards the inventions and scientific proofs, based on such a, "crackpot theory" as either QM or QED and yet refer to themselves as a, "prof", seems to me: the height of hubris."

Where in the world did you pull that from?
I'd respond more, but all I see is a jumble of non-sequiturs. '

       Referring to my post (07-04-2021 1:43pm), in which I mention the study of QM broadening the horizons of many branches of Science,  
                                they provide further deflection:

"Even understanding in the Biological Sciences has been expanded/deepened, through the studies of QM, regarding how the senses and brain function, in many areas.

Like...what?"
                                            AND:

"What’s your actual point. Can you be clear, maybe with some actually relevant example, rather than vague waving to Quantum Mechanics, which just happens to be the de rigueur move for countless crackpot theories? (I’d be a millionaire if I had 10 cents for every new age purveyor appealing to the mystery of quantum mechanics)."

      To which I replied with four precise examples, that would have satisfied any enquiring mind (the expiring mind: not so much, obviously).

                             Which they deflected with:

"rodman,

You are all over the place."

     YES and: exactly my point (QM appears, "all over the place", and has affected virtually every branch of Science)

                                Their continuing theme:

"Ask yourself: When science has been corrected: how was it corrected?
That’s right, by more science. It’s a self-correcting method."

"Do you agree or not?"

"If so, the old "science has been wrong" bit is a red herring. Yes, science has been wrong, but you don’t get to promote a dubious claim that isn’t scientifically verified "because science has been wrong before."
                           
               Followed by more deflection, in that particular post.

      What they can't seem to grasp, is what I stated in my first post:

  "It's not so much that Science has been proven, "wrong", but: that it's moved on, in so many areas."

       Then: their very clear lack of comprehension, of the point I've made* (VERY CLEARLY), twice, on this same page:

"If you tried to leap from some Discovery article citing a paper of researchers "controlling a cell’s interaction with light" to validating some audiophile’s tweak...that sounds like a profoundly incautious, unscientific leap...the type no actual responsible scientist would make. But...be my guest...show us the leap to relevance."

"So, again, try to be clear. If you are going to invoke SCIENCE, can you maintain an actual SCIENTIFIC mindset? Show me exactly what audio thing you "hear at home" that a "naysayer" may criticize, that you think is somehow validated by SCIENCE."

                    * I've never tried to, "validate" anything.  

                                 For the third time now:

       "My position has always been: with what we've learned from the studies and advancements, related to QM and QED: there are a multitude of POSSIBILITIES; as to why we MAY hear the things we do, when listening to our own systems, in our own rooms, with our own ears, and our various add-ons."

         Perhaps that, "possibilities" is greater than two syllables, is an issue?

         Were they ever even a, "prof" in such a liberal art as Home Economics; it would have required much better comprehension skills.

          I'm convinced: their field (if any) must have been Geology, based on their marked, petro-cephalic disposition.    

                       Don't waste your keystrokes on such.

                      Happy listening and enjoy the journey!

"It’s not so much that Science has been proven, "wrong", but: that it’s moved on, in so many areas."

You are right for sure.... And my Goethe quote say the same thing....Science is not a decree someone can use against spirit, astrologers, God, or magicians.... Science is an aspect of the travel of consciousness looking for truth and experiments and reason engrossed by creativity because reason without creativity is a dead body.... Science is not a mere word used in audio forum to justify blind test where blind test has no real usefulness : in your home or small personal audio laboratory.....

In a hundred continuous experiments i never used " organized" blind test, only my own accidental or improvisezed blind test....We are audio enthusiasts not marketers trying to use blind test to sell a drug or a dac, nor zealot Randi disciple trying to debunk their claims...Nobody need statistic to create an hi-fi system....(By the way only an idiot or a showman like Randi can offer money prize to debunk psychic faculties, they are all over the place and history illustrate it with plenty of examples but zealots dont like history because history always destroy dogmas)




Life is not simple save for simplistic mind....

Rodman you battle with zealots not scientists...

There exist in history example of religious heart with very scientific mind and also of atheist and materialist with zealot mind....

Q.M. killed materialism in 1925...

And any human perception involved Q.M. effect and life in his more basic working like photosynthesis work only because Q.M.


No science today is able to explain hearing.... We know many facts but none of our maps explain reality.... Save for transhumanist or simplistic mind confusing spirit/brain/and A.I together or conflate consciousness/"matter"/ and algorithm...

The least possible philosophical position today is a form of idealism or panpsychism...Bernado Kastrup is easy for materialist to read i recommend it.... Cassirer or Goethe are not for too simplistic mind Alas!...

Mine (idealism) was inspired from mathematics all my life...Not the mathematic technology of A.I. for sure.... 😊😊

Quantum mechanics did not kill materialism if you think it did then try a simple experiment. Try walking through a brick wall. Quantum mechanics is not fully understood and to continue to fall back on, " well what about QM " is lazy thinking to say the least. 

https://www.mdpi.com/2073-8994/12/9/1533