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Capacitor log Mundorf Silver in Oil

I wished I could find a log with information on caps. I have found many saying tremendous improvement etc. but not a detailed account of what the changes have been. I have had the same speakers for many years so am very familiar with them. (25+ years) The speakers are a set of Klipsch Lascala's. They have Alnico magnets in the mids and ceramic woofers and tweeters. The front end is Linn LP12 and Linn pre amp and amp. The speaker wire is 12 gauge and new wire.

I LOVE these speakers around 1 year ago they started to sound like garbage. As many have said they are VERY sensitive to the components before them. They are also showing what I think is the effect of worn out caps.

There are many out here on these boards I know of that are using the Klipsch (heritage) with cheaper Japanese electronics because the speakers are cheap! (for what they can do) One thing I would recommend is give these speakers the best quality musical sources you can afford. There is a LOT to get out of these speakers. My other speakers are Linn speakers at around 4k new with Linn tri-wire (I think about 1k for that) and the Klipsch DESTROY them in my mind. If you like "live feel" there is nothing like them. In fact it shocks me how little speakers have improved in 30 years (or 60 years in the Khorns instance)

In fact I question Linn's theory (that they have proved many times) that the source is the most important in the Hi-Fi chain. Linn's theory is top notch source with lessor rest of gear including speakers trumps expensive speakers with lessor source. I think is right if all things are equal but Klipsch heritage are NOT equal! They make a sound and feel that most either LOVE or hate. (I am in the LOVE camp and other speakers are boring to me)

So here goes and I hope this helps guys looking at caps in the future. Keep in mind Klipsch (heritage Khorns Belle's and Lascala's especially) are likely to show the effects of crossover changes more then most.

1 The caps are 30 years old and
2 the speakers being horn driven make changes 10x times more apparent.

Someone once told me find speakers and components you like THEN start to tweak if needed. Don't tweak something you not in love with. Makes sense to me.

So sound
Record is Let it Be (Beatles)
The voices are hard almost sounds like a worn out stylus.
Treble is very hard. I Me Mine has hard sounding guitars. Symbals sound awful. Everything has a digital vs. analog comparison x50! Paul's voice not as bad as John's and George's. Voices will crack.

different lp
Trumpets sound awful. Tambourine terrible. Bass is not great seems shy (compared to normal) but the bad caps draw soooooo much attention to the broken up mid range and hard highs that are not bright if anything it seems the highs are not working up to snuff. I have went many times to speaker to make sure tweeters are even working.

All in all they sound like crap except these Klipsch have such fantastic dynamics that even when not right they are exciting!

Makes me wonder about the people who do not like them if they are hearing worn out caps and cheap electronics? Then I can see why they do not like them! If I did not know better from 25+ years of ownership that would make sense.

For the new crossover I have chosen Mundorf Silver in Oil from what I have read and can afford. I want a warm not overly detailed sound as Klipsch already has lots of detail and does not need to be "livened up" they need lush smooth sounding caps. Hope I have made the right choice?

When the crossover is in I will do a initial impression on same lp's. Right now it goes from really bad (on what may be worn vinyl) to not as bad but NOT great on great vinyl. (I know the quality of the vinyl because tested on other speakers Linn)

The new caps are Mundorf Silver in Oil and new copper foil inductors are coming. I will at the same time be rewiring the speakers to 12 guage from the lamp cord that PWK put in. PWK was a master at getting very good sound often with crap by today's standards components.

The choice of speakers would be a toss up now depending on what I am listening to. Klipsch vastly more dynamic but if the breaking up of the sound becomes to much to effect enjoyment the Linn would be a better choice on that Lp. If I could I would switch a button back and forth between speakers depending on song and how bad the break-up sound was bothering me.

volleyguy
volleyguy OP
789 posts
 
Johnk

It all started in confusion as to why the Klipsch sounded much more life like than my modern gear? It was a second system and I was selling the Klipsch when a guy brought by a vintage tube amp and I went Holy Smokes that sounds life like. If was the first time I had heard an all foil system.

I decided to keep them and replace the worn out foil caps. The funny thing was as soon a modern poly caps went in they sound like modern speakers and the qualities I liked were gone. A fake plastic sound. I thought horns were the reason they sounded the way they did? Then came better caps (Mundorf Supreme and Silver in Oil) better dynamics but still plastic sounding. Duelund was only used because they were the only parts I found to be clearly better than original. I agree with Steen Duelund when he said he could clearly hear that the Jensen caps were much more life like than ANY poly cap. This was when he had nothing to sell.

At this point it my curiousity that was really peaked. As much for my own understanding. You might be right about different drivers etc. but many of the faults you heard on the Khorns are the crossover parts and internal wiring. Horns will amplify (as you of course know) any resonance of the caps into a drone.

The alternative after hearing Duelund parts is to either buy new speakers with Duelund parts and for sure that will not be cheap! To me after what I heard it is an absolute must for Duelund in the crossover. So any choice of speaker will start with as few as possible parts or one will be broke. (or at least I will)

So it comes back to what is a better deal? One can take their pick of almost any speaker used and gut the crossover and I bet in every case it comes out as a fantastic deal.

I agree the Khorns are a great deal in N.A. 60 years of production and still making them keeps used prices down.

I don't know but a vintage tube amp point to point recapped with Jensen Copper Paper tube or Duelund, re wired likely with Duelund Silver or copper flat wire likely around $1500 in total. (unless of course more Duelund caps)

I will have around $3k (roughly I think maybe a little more) in parts for the speakers that I already owned.

I have wasted a LOT more money in Audio than I have now and have not even come close in sound by light years. The humiliation that the vintage tube amp gave my modern gear has made me more tight fisted with the $.
johnk's avatar
johnk
1,975 posts
 
I highly upgraded the k horn network. Used hi quality parts from mundorf alphacore nordost WBT. I would never start a loudspeaker design based on crossover. And I still feel your chasing your tail. Capacitors are not transducers no cap or crossover parts going to improve performance or frequncy responce of a transducer. What your doing is building passive eq into network by selecting crossover parts not on testing but on how they sound in your loudspeaker with your system and with your personal tastes. Nothing wrong with that but your results are for you only not a blanket statement like[One can take their pick of almost any speaker used and gut the crossover and I bet in every case it comes out as a fantastic deal].This is just not true. But I feel Im talking to the converted so I will leave you be. Happy listening.
gallant_diva
143 posts
 
I have upgraded my crossover with Mundorf S&O caps on my Aogee Fullrange. My fullrange is my own deisgn combining the Apogee Fullrange woofer with a Centaur Major mid/tw ribbon in a special enclosure. I designed the passive crossover. the midrange/tweeter crossover is a 3-stage passive crossover that uses 40Uf, 20uF, and 20uf,respectively in the first, second, and third stage. It also has an extra stage to boost the highs using a 5Uf cap with 2 ohm resistor. There are additional resistors and inductors.

The woofer only use an inductor. All of my inductors are Alpha-Core. My previous caps were north Creek.

The caps have had about 150 hours so I suppose they still breaking in?

The improvement is clarify, focus, and transparency and it is worth $2k that 16 caps cost me that is not bad compared to the Duelunds that would have cost me a meager $64,000.
undertow
1,033 posts
 
Gallant_diva
You make a huge missing point in this discussion, Applications will many times dictate the answer not so much what we want or don't want. For sure in your needs this would make zero sense.

However for example I have speakers with only a 1.75 uF cap, and a 5.7 uF cap... Its like a second order, and yep I use a single 12 gauge Alpha core ribbon inductor. In the cap positions the Duelunds only cost me a few hundred. So it makes sense for simplicity, and size vs. value. And truth is yes they are far better than the Mundorf oils I previously used in this application. Then I went to an even better for the sound value of the Clarity MR caps(in my opinion).

This still does not "Defy" the law of "Point of diminishing returns"... In a case where the design is so complex and of large values for sure you would not be in a position to ever justify or gain the complete advantage of caps to do what you need to do ultimately, and so you made a very good choice of how to get there.

It all comes down to the prioritys of the system in the first place, I prefer super hi efficiency, very simple crossover designs, or NO crossover at all, obviously an apogee is quite the opposite with very low efficiency and complex crossovers. That does not mean that they won't sound as good or better, just that for me the point of diminishing returns would be reached and I would most likely stay away from that approach in the first place personally. But somebody will do it and enjoy it for sure. Great system you have!
johnk's avatar
johnk
1,975 posts
 
$64000 for caps:) Crazy world for sure.
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