Amp shootout.....Tenor 75wi verses Berning ZH270

in my pursuit of musical nirvanna i had spent some big dollars but still was unfullfilled......then i heard a friends system much more modest than mine that gave me much more musical pleasure and involvement...

Mike, I am so glad you said this, it makes me feel even more so that you do now have something really special going and not one of those, I spent it, they told me it was the best and it is, types.
Maybe that's why the Berning owners were so fast to disbelieve, these sort of money systems are really well known to everyone, well except to the guys with the money, as not being musical and pretty disappointing at times.
The Berning owners know what they have and I could tell you, I and others have done a few other shoot outs with more expensive well regarded amps and they were nowhere in the class as the Bernings.

So I think we both learned a couple things and some people were surprised in both camps.
The Berning camp must realize that there are products in the mega dollar class that are not a component status thing only and has real audio value.
Some in the Tenor camp has to come to grips with the fact that the Berning designs are at par to anything, it's easier to build a phenomenal amp at any cost, than to build a great amp at a steal.

As an add to Allan's post, I think that the ZOTL design is the major reason why the amp can perform much higher than it costs. ZOTL allows much fewer parts and eliminates the real costly ones like the big$ output transformer and large banks of tubes. So you get the best of both worlds, lower cost and high performance. I hope David brings out a cost-no-object flagship amp that will get him the recognition he deserves for his innovative design. That would be an unbelievable shootout!

Allanbhaganinfo: I do have to disagree with your statement of "it's easier to build a phenomenal amp at any cost, than to build a great amp at a steal." I think one comes to expect more from an amp with a very high cost and make excuses for amps at a lower cost. "It only costs $4000, what do you expect?" My reference is not intended for any specific amplifier.

The point is an amp that costs $20k or more better sound great. Most often, a high price tag does not necessarily assure good sound, only that it may have been much more expensive to produce.

The Berning amps are quite good for the money as are many other amps in that price range or lower (George Wright's amlifiers for one.) Does this mean that they are comparable with something like the Tenor's, Lamm's or Atma-sphere's? No way!!!

Those out there under the impression they will get the same quality sound if they buy the Berning amps over the top amps costing quite a bit more, should realize that, in this case, you get what you pay for.

By the way, Mike Lavigne's system is the absolute best I have ever heard. I put together the Tenor/Rockport room at CES, that all the reviewers say was the best sound they ever heard, and I tell you, it does not even compare to Mike's system. If you ever happen to get the chance to hear it, your definition of good sound, will change forever.

Jtinn -The real point is if an amp is expensive to produce and it doesn't sound good at its price or below, it is a poor design and it will eventually fail in the market. It may last long enough to be sold to the unwitting deep-pocketed few, that's all. The deep-pocketed discerning music lover will recognize its real value.

As Twl notes above, fewer parts, less tubes and a radically new design can correlate to great sound at less cost, can't it? Better even than the competition and maybe even better than products considerably more. Can't this be true? Does it not ever happen in audio? This is what great design is all about especially when it also offers new levels of convenience, features and dependability.

Since you haven't listened to the zh270 in your reference, how can you be so certain that it isn't better than the run of the mill 4.5K - 5K amp? It doesn't have an output transformer that always gets in the way of the music. Most 5K tube amps have one and they ring, aren't nearly as clear and certainly don't have the bass performance of the Berning. The Berning has the true performance of an OTL. Other than the Atmas-pheres name another that competes? The Wrights are also great but they are specialty amps designed for low powered applications. Have you actually heard the zh270? You haven't made that clear. Since I truly value your opinion, I would be interested in the details.

Why did Harvey Rosenberg and Dick Olsher gush over this amp if it wasn't as good as it is? They didn't qualify it's sound with price. There seems to be a wide-ranging consensus that it has a reference quality midrange. There is greater debate over its performance at the frequency extremes but this seems to vary with the load.

According to one of your competitors in an above post, it gets much better than the Tenors. Well, one thing is for certain, it gets much more expensive. Question - Is the Vandersteen 5, at 11K, a world class speaker or is it just a great speaker at its price? Don't need an answer, I already know that opinions do vary.

As Mike notes above and as you have also noted in other threads, deep pockets allow a greater range of choices. To me the very best designs are the ones that make great sounding products that work in a wide range of applications and compete with the higher priced competition. In addition they are within financial reach of a large group. I believe the Berning is in that category of product. 20K + amplifiers should be easier to design to sound good simply because they have to make less compromises. The fact that some don't means those designers' should find a new line of work because there are many that can and do.

Jtinn, I just have one question. Are you claiming that Tenors, Atma-spheres, Joules (I know, that wasn't in your post), Lamms, etc. will outperform the Berning in every system, with EVERY type of speaker, regardless of how difficult it is to drive--planar, electrostatic, plasma, whatever? Pick the highest quality interconnects, sources, preamps, speaker cables, tweaks, whatever you want, (maybe Mikelavigne's system !), pick the 'best' speakers from the different categories, AB the Tenors and the Berning. The Tenors will always sound better?
I have a Berning; I like it, but I have no emotional investment in it. If your answer to my question is 'yes', I'll think seriously about selling my Berning, some other stuff I have laying around I never use, and saving some money to pick up a pair of Atma-spheres, or Joules. If I win the lottery, maybe Tenors or Lamms!